Official Sam Ventura Hired as VP of Hockey Strategy and Research

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

The talk of Adams targeting solely futures with Eichel gives me a lot of pause, though, re: “rebuild without being terrible”. 

The “low on options” framing only makes sense imo if you think the deal is Eichel instigated and I don’t believe that to be the case 

Personally, I would like a majority of the return to be young players.  Guys 1-2 years into their NHL careers or about to break in next season.

I don’t know who is initiating the trade business.  I suspect that you may be right, but Eichel also seems pretty fed up with his situation.  I think the relationship has become untenable.

[LGR4GM]

Having Ventura and Karmanos on board gives me some hope. I still want 1 more data analyst type brought in to help Ventura

[Curt]

27 minutes ago, Taro T said:

They're only low on options because management appears to have chosen to follow a path that will see the departure of 2 key forwards and a solid, though whipping boy, D-man.  And following that path may further leave them without their best, though injured, stay at home D-man & their only current NHL caliber goalie.

That road is NOT the only one available to them.

And, yes, they MAY rebuild with youth and be in the hunt sooner than the 3 years many are expecting & Karmanos & Ventura seem to be encouraging hires, but there has been NO reason to believe based on the past decade that the road chosen IS the correct one.

We FINALLY have good supporting pieces available to support the "tank fruit" and they seem to be preparing to throw that away to reset once again.  This flat out stinks.

I disagree, sort of.  The contractual situations they are in limits their options.

Yeah, it stinks, but I think Reinhart and Risto were not resigning.  That’s a choice they can make, independent of what path Buffalo wants to take.

I don’t have a full picture of the relationship between Eichel and the team, but Jack seems pretty disgruntled, and I’m not sure how you move forward with a young team with a captain in that mindset.

Again, it stinks.  They are paying the price for being so bad for so long.

[Curt]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 

This article encapsulates a lot of what I’m feeling.  It seems like Adams is actually doing the things he said he wanted to when hired.  I feel a bit of confidence that he isn’t just a mouthpiece full of hot air.

[Brawndo]

21 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Having Ventura and Karmanos on board gives me some hope. I still want 1 more data analyst type brought in to help Ventura

How about His Former War On Ice Co Founder AC Thomas, probably not going to happen unfortunately.

 

Ventura’s Strong Relationship with CMU’s Statistics Department should help in that regard. 

[kas23]

23 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

How about His Former War On Ice Co Founder AC Thomas, probably not going to happen unfortunately.

 

Ventura’s Strong Relationship with CMU’s Statistics Department should help in that regard. 

The best pick ups would be 1-2 young guys straight out of grad school. They’ll be quick on the take and hungry. 

[FogBat]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Having Ventura and Karmanos on board gives me some hope. I still want 1 more data analyst type brought in to help Ventura

I think you're right. Ace may be a stats and analytics genius, but he didn't get there by himself. Same could be said Fischer vs. Spassky in the premier chess match of the 20th century in 1972.

[Thorny]

8 hours ago, Curt said:

I disagree, sort of.  The contractual situations they are in limits their options.

Yeah, it stinks, but I think Reinhart and Risto were not resigning.  That’s a choice they can make, independent of what path Buffalo wants to take.

I don’t have a full picture of the relationship between Eichel and the team, but Jack seems pretty disgruntled, and I’m not sure how you move forward with a young team with a captain in that mindset.

Again, it stinks.  They are paying the price for being so bad for so long.

I mostly think he’s disgruntled because the team won’t commit to winning right now, so again, it comes back to a choice they made, in their power, where Jack is concerned. 

It’s not, “we’ve been bad, but let’s try and get this figured out.” It’s “we’ve been bad, let’s reset the core again.” 

Adams wants to move Jack. For better or worse. People can frame this however they like, but the one way I’ll actively rail against is the portrait of a helpless Kevyn Adams with little choice in the matter. We don’t have to trade Jack, we’ve made the choice to trade Jack. This is the most important point because without that we can’t attribute proper judgement to the work of the GM

Edited July 7, 2021 by Thorny

[PASabreFan]

8 hours ago, kas23 said:

The best pick ups would be 1-2 young guys straight out of grad school. They’ll be quick on the take and hungry. 

I like this. Bring them in and let them develop. The department will be humming and world-class in, oh, five to seven years.

OK, look, I haven't said a bad word here or contributed anything except the snark above.

I do want to humbly offer that his nickname needs to be Ken and not Ace.

[Doohickie]

9 hours ago, Curt said:

I think the relationship has become untenable.

I think that's what's been reported.

I also think it's an exaggeration built on a few remarks and a few rumors.

It's entirely possible that KA is shopping Eichel to improve the team but is prepared to keep him if the right deal doesn't come along.

9 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Having Ventura and Karmanos on board gives me some hope. I still want 1 more data analyst type brought in to help Ventura

Could Nightengale be that guy?  Maybe not as a leader but as a contributor?

[Curt]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I mostly think he’s disgruntled because the team won’t commit to winning right now, so again, it comes back to a choice they made, in their power, where Jack is concerned. 

It’s not, “we’ve been bad, but let’s try and get this figured out.” It’s “we’ve been bad, let’s reset the core again.” 

Adams wants to move Jack. For better or worse. People can frame this however they like, but the one way I’ll actively rail against is the portrait of a helpless Kevyn Adams with little choice in the matter. We don’t have to trade Jack, we’ve made the choice to trade Jack. This is the most important point because without that we can’t attribute proper judgement to the work of the GM

Last season they definitely tried to win.  I think Jack is mad because the team sucks, not because of a nebulous concept of commitment to winning.

No matter how you slice it, or what angle you look at it from, it’s pretty clear that this whole mess is self inflicted.  It just comes down to which avenue of incompetence you prefer.

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

Last season they definitely tried to win.  I think Jack is mad because the team sucks, not because of a nebulous concept of commitment to winning.

No matter how you slice it, or what angle you look at it from, it’s pretty clear that this whole mess is self inflicted.  It just comes down to which avenue of incompetence you prefer.

It’s still a choice to trade him - I’ve heard enough talk of how long they’ve been shopping him to leave me with little doubt. 

[Curt]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It’s still a choice to trade him - I’ve heard enough talk of how long they’ve been shopping him to leave me with little doubt. 

Definitely making a choice.  I think fear of how a disgruntled captain Jack affects the young guys going forward and fear that he will demand a trade after his NMC kicks in are really driving that choice.

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

Definitely making a choice.  I think fear of how a disgruntled captain Jack affects the young guys going forward and fear that he will demand a trade after his NMC kicks in are really driving that choice.

Totally fair - and you've held firm on that stance for months. 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

I mostly think he’s disgruntled because the team won’t commit to winning right now, so again, it comes back to a choice they made, in their power, where Jack is concerned. 

It’s not, “we’ve been bad, but let’s try and get this figured out.” It’s “we’ve been bad, let’s reset the core again.” 

Adams wants to move Jack. For better or worse. People can frame this however they like, but the one way I’ll actively rail against is the portrait of a helpless Kevyn Adams with little choice in the matter. We don’t have to trade Jack, we’ve made the choice to trade Jack. This is the most important point because without that we can’t attribute proper judgement to the work of the GM

There is a large segment of (mostly non-Sabre) fandom that thinks this is about Jack forcing his way out.

But anyone who has watched this develop should have no doubt it is Adams-initiated. He pretty clearly thinks that Jack is a detriment to the culture he wants to build.

That said, Jack is also pretty clearly ready for a change and has very little faith that the organization is capable of giving him the support he needs. It’s broken relationship with both parties ready to move on - a divorce.

[PASabreFan]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

It’s still a choice to trade him - I’ve heard enough talk of how long they’ve been shopping him to leave me with little doubt. 

Does it make you wonder what they know that we don't?

[WildCard]

2 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Does it make you wonder what they know that we don't?

They've done very little to earn the benefit of the doubt.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

14 hours ago, Taro T said:

The guy is (apparently) good at math.

If he was good at English as well he probably wouldn't be buried in a back room somewhere. 😉

He's not good at math.  He is a very good statistician.  Big differnce, I think, but waht do I know, I'm just a CPA and terrible at math.

Sorry to correct your usage of the English language here, but it drives me crazy when people don't use the proper term ... it's goodly ... 'if he was goodly at English' ...

Edited July 7, 2021 by New Scotland (NS)
I don't type very goodly atoll ...

[nfreeman]

43 minutes ago, dudacek said:

There is a large segment of (mostly non-Sabre) fandom that thinks this is about Jack forcing his way out.

But anyone who has watched this develop should have no doubt it is Adams-initiated. He pretty clearly thinks that Jack is a detriment to the culture he wants to build.

That said, Jack is also pretty clearly ready for a change and has very little faith that the organization is capable of giving him the support he needs. It’s broken relationship with both parties ready to move on - a divorce.

Well, I think there's a chicken-egg situation here.  If Adams has decided that Eichel needs to go, this decision almost certainly arose from Eichel's behavior and/or injury.  If the injury drove Adams' decision, we'll probably know in due time based on how much of his peak form Eichel regains. 

If Eichel's behavior drove KA's decision, it's likely that the behavior consisted largely of giving off a loud and unmistakeable  "holy crap what a Micky Mouse organization this is, we're never going to win, and all I want is to GTFO of here" vibe -- and if that's the case, isn't that pretty close to him forcing his way out?

Now, it's also possible -- not likely, but possible -- that Eichel's behavior was not the result of him enduring year after year of suckitude, revolving doors at coach and GM, etc., but rather him being one of those rare, highly toxic individuals whom no one can stand to be around. 

If you're inclined toward that theory, here's something from the Athletic today:

Quote

Both Vegas and L.A. fit the bill for one longtime talent evaluator who feels Eichel needs to be around a strong veteran core. “Just sit the f*** down and behave and bring your ‘A’ game,” the longtime NHL scout said. “I wouldn’t want him driving the bus.”

 

[Doohickie]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

Definitely making a choice.  I think fear of how a disgruntled captain Jack affects the young guys going forward and fear that he will demand a trade after his NMC kicks in are really driving that choice.

If he's disgruntled, make someone else captain.  A year ago I wouldn't have said that but now I think it's the way to go if they don't trade him and he's not happy.

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

If he's disgruntled, make someone else captain.  A year ago I wouldn't have said that but now I think it's the way to go if they don't trade him and he's not happy.

That just does not fix the problem.

1) It’s a very public embarrassment for Eichel that will only further damage an already fractured relationship.

2) Do you think that simply removing the captaincy will really fix anything.  He is still the best player, most high profile player, and one of the longest tenured members of the team.

This would only make a disgruntled Eichel even more disgruntled, and doesn’t stop him from being a drag on the moral of the team.

I think the better course of action would be to deal with it internally best they can, while publicly giving no hint as to what is going on, until a trade can be made.

[inkman]

15 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

More Sam Ventura praise. 

 

The lack of discussion about the addition of Venture is disappointing.  I get that adding a stats nerd isn’t very sexy but this move has me like:

 
 

Buffalo media is like:

[Doohickie]

4 minutes ago, Curt said:

That just does not fix the problem.

1) It’s a very public embarrassment for Eichel that will only further damage an already fractured relationship.

2) Do you think that simply removing the captaincy will really fix anything.  He is still the best player, most high profile player, and one of the longest tenured members of the team.

This would only make a disgruntled Eichel even more disgruntled, and doesn’t stop him from being a drag on the moral of the team.

I think the better course of action would be to deal with it internally best they can, while publicly giving no hint as to what is going on, until a trade can be made.

Eh.  Maybe, maybe not.

I think Donny Meatballs would have to be a star whisperer and if they don't trade Jack sit him down and tell him he has a choice:  Keep the C and live up to it, or relinquish the C and just worry about scoring goals.  The third option Granato would put forth is Jack keeping the C, not living up to it, and getting it stripped mid-season.  But he lets Jack make the choice.

I think given the choice he'd keep the C and do his best to live up to it, mostly out of obligation to his own ego, but if that gets him to buy into the Donny Meatballs Self Improvement Program, I'm okay with that.

[Curt]

5 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Eh.  Maybe, maybe not.

I think Donny Meatballs would have to be a star whisperer and if they don't trade Jack sit him down and tell him he has a choice:  Keep the C and live up to it, or relinquish the C and just worry about scoring goals.  The third option Granato would put forth is Jack keeping the C, not living up to it, and getting it stripped mid-season.  But he lets Jack make the choice.

I think given the choice he'd keep the C and do his best to live up to it, mostly out of obligation to his own ego, but if that gets him to buy into the Donny Meatballs Self Improvement Program, I'm okay with that.

Option 4:  ***** you, trade me, lol

[Doohickie]

Option 4 won't happen.  I mean, even if he starts the season in Buffalo and demands a trade it's in his best interest to play up to his contract.  If the Sabres are going to trade him they have to get more than a bag of pucks and they're only going to get a good return if he demonstrates he's worth it.