Buffalo Sabres Training Camp (2020/21)

[Thorny]

^Dunno if it'll happen but I wouldn't mind seeing Cozens at C as you propose after seeing him almost totally at W in the WJC. I think it's pretty important he ends up there for us eventually. Of course I'm good with him breaking in on wing, but I'm hoping to see some C just as visual confirmation that's still a "thing". 

Don't see why it wouldn't be, where they played him in the WJC doesn't have any bearing on what the Sabres will do. But I know they've mentioned breaking Cozens in on the right, before. 

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, jsb said:

Not that I disagree with you but R2 and Cozens haven't proved they can do anything in the NHL, much less their rookie years

 

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

What's the comparison in that regard? Both to me seem to be defensively responsible players. 

Skinner is the antithesis of a give and go player, he doesn’t read and react and move the puck and himself to open spaces and therefore tends to frustrate “clever” linemates, or stick handlers who play that kind of game.

He works best off responsible guys who move the puck to the net and force turnovers and chaos. Cozens has proven nothing but his play style seems to fit. R2 I’ve seen less of, but he seems responsible and not fancy.

I think they might be better fits with Skinner. 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Yes, some of those other years he scored 30. 

Who? Honest question.

All the goals I see him scoring are scrambles, rebounds, wraparounds, turnovers and steals.

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

 

Skinner is the antithesis of a give and go player, he doesn’t read and react and move the puck and himself to open spaces and therefore tends to frustrate “clever” linemates, or stick handlers who play that kind of game.

He works best off responsible guys who move the puck to the net and force turnovers and chaos. Cozens has proven nothing but his play style seems to fit. R2 I’ve seen less of, but he seems responsible and not fancy.

I think they might be better fits with Skinner. 

Ah ok I agree then, I read it wrong as if you were comparing Cozens and Ruotsalainen to Lazar and Skinner in terms of stylistic fits. As in Cozens or Ruotsalainen filling in the Skinner role. Which I think neither are like. 

53 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Who? Honest question.

All the goals I see him scoring are scrambles, rebounds, wraparounds, turnovers and steals.

These are good, and importantly majorly even strength goals. We don't necessarily need to equate chemistry with flashy passing plays imo. He scored his goals mostly in the ways you mentioned when he played with Jack, wouldn't we still say they have chemistry? Skinner doesn't "click" in the traditional ways with guys, but he meshes well with possession drivers - you have to get Skinner into the offensive zone, there he can either do his thing or he's savvy enough to capitalize on the close calls generated by other, better, more well rounded players. 

He scored 37 in Carolina in 16-17 with Victor Rask, 30 at even strength.  To me that's chemistry - I think in the end he levels out similarly in the macro to other defensively weak one-dimensional offensive players: playing with a great player is going to cover up for his deficiencies, and playing with great possession players will also get the job done, because he has the ability to get it done to a high relative degree, individually, in the o-zone. 

We saw how good the Jack - Skinner combo was. The way the output comes about doesn't scream "chemistry" but it's the output that matters, in the end.

It doesn't really surprise me Krueger seems so adverse to him being on a top line - "synergy" is his biggest buzzword maybe, I could see him being put off by the individualistic nature that Skinner operates under in the offensive zone. I'd argue the uncontrolled rebound assist off a goalie's pad that JE so often generates is just as valuable if it's a process that can be repeated to consistent positive results - and we did see that over a full season already. 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Thorny

[Curt]

55 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

Skinner is the antithesis of a give and go player, he doesn’t read and react and move the puck and himself to open spaces and therefore tends to frustrate “clever” linemates, or stick handlers who play that kind of game.

He works best off responsible guys who move the puck to the net and force turnovers and chaos. Cozens has proven nothing but his play style seems to fit. R2 I’ve seen less of, but he seems responsible and not fancy.

I think they might be better fits with Skinner. 

I totally agree with this.  No idea if Cozens is ready to do that at the NHL level though.

Skinner is at his best when he can suddenly pounce into position and grab a scoring chance from chaos.

He isn’t really a sniper who you set up for one timers.  He doesn’t necessarily need a great playmaker to set him up. He just needs someone who can help cover for him defensively, get the puck around the net and create a bit of a mess.  Skinner will clean it up.

[Curt]

Just now, Thorny said:

Ya like Larsson. 

Sure, kinda.  Larsson could play defense, keep the puck in the zone and shovel it somewhere around the net.  I think ideally you would want someone with more speed, and  offensive talent though.

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, Curt said:

Sure, kinda.  Larsson could play defense, keep the puck in the zone and shovel it somewhere around the net.  I think ideally you would want someone with more speed, and  offensive talent though.

Tried to delete that as I don't feel like assuming the role of sole Larsson booster anymore 😄

Yes ideally I want him with a guy like Jack. We *saw* what they do together. But the appeal of a Larsson/Skinner combo is that we've already seen Larsson isn't going to give anything up, what Skinner contributes is almost a bonus, if that's a line getting tough matchups. I'd argue say 20 goals from the third line is as valuable/comparable to 30 next to Staal, if Skinner can be replaced on that line with a guy like VO/Thompson who go onto to get, while maybe not all the way to what Skinner would provide, close - where Skinner is picking up goals on a lower line at a rate VO couldn't do without more talent. 

To me it's about the net output. 

Oh, and he's way overpaid. 

[Taro T]

29 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Ah ok I agree then, I read it wrong as if you were comparing Cozens and Ruotsalainen to Lazar and Skinner in terms of stylistic fits. As in Cozens or Ruotsalainen filling in the Skinner role. Which I think neither are like. 

These are good, and importantly majorly even strength goals. We don't necessarily need to equate chemistry with flashy passing plays imo. He scored his goals mostly in the ways you mentioned when he played with Jack, wouldn't we still say they have chemistry? Skinner doesn't "click" in the traditional ways with guys, but he meshes well with possession drivers - you have to get Skinner into the offensive zone, there he can either do his thing or he's savvy enough to capitalize on the close calls generated by other, better, more well rounded players. 

He scored 37 in Carolina in 16-17 with Victor Rask, 30 at even strength.  To me that's chemistry - I think in the end he levels out similarly in the macro to other defensively weak one-dimensional offensive players: playing with a great player is going to cover up for his deficiencies, and playing with great possession players will also get the job done, because he has the ability to get it done to a high relative degree, individually, in the o-zone. 

We saw how good the Jack - Skinner combo was. The way the output comes about doesn't scream "chemistry" but it's the output that matters, in the end.

It doesn't really surprise me Krueger seems so adverse to him being on a top line - "synergy" is his biggest buzzword maybe, I could see him being put off by the individualistic nature that Skinner operates under in the offensive zone. I'd argue the uncontrolled rebound assist off a goalie's pad that JE so often generates is just as valuable if it's a process that can be repeated to consistent positive results - and we did see that over a full season already. 

To the bolded, Pominville meshed with Eichel too until he was too spent to even get in the zone anymore.  Shall we go back to that as well?

Skinner playing w/ Eichel did result in goals for Skinner & relatively little for Eichel.  Skinner playing w/ Johansson resulted in goals until just before the trip to Sweden.  Not sure who was dinged worse, but pretty sure one or both started playing hurt after that.  

Skinner scores when other players get the puck to the net & he can bury a rebound or when he steals the puck on a zone exit & goes in alone.  Neither of which NEEDS Eichel & the 1st of which actually limits Eichel to a degree because he has to both stay high to cover for the fact Jeff will be by the net (and due to hoping to steal a puck on the breakout will also cause him to be "late" leaving the zone to try to steal a puck) and can't go for the roofer which is HIS snipe but has to shoot low which is a lower probability shot to get a rebound if he doesn't score.

Skinner limits Eichel.  That is why they typically aren't paired together.  Reinhart doesn't, nor does Olofsson.  In theory, neither Thompson nor Cozens will either.

[Curt]

My lines if Skinner is off the top 6:

Hall-Eichel-Thompson 

Olofsson-Staal-Reinhart

Skinner-Eakin-Cozens

Reider-Lazar-Okposo

I can get on board with Skinner on a 3rd line, but he needs some talent to play off of.

[Thorny]

23 minutes ago, Taro T said:

To the bolded, Pominville meshed with Eichel too until he was too spent to even get in the zone anymore.  Shall we go back to that as well?

Skinner playing w/ Eichel did result in goals for Skinner & relatively little for Eichel.  Skinner playing w/ Johansson resulted in goals until just before the trip to Sweden.  Not sure who was dinged worse, but pretty sure one or both started playing hurt after that.  

Skinner scores when other players get the puck to the net & he can bury a rebound or when he steals the puck on a zone exit & goes in alone.  Neither of which NEEDS Eichel & the 1st of which actually limits Eichel to a degree because he has to both stay high to cover for the fact Jeff will be by the net (and due to hoping to steal a puck on the breakout will also cause him to be "late" leaving the zone to try to steal a puck) and can't go for the roofer which is HIS snipe but has to shoot low which is a lower probability shot to get a rebound if he doesn't score.

Skinner limits Eichel.  That is why they typically aren't paired together.  Reinhart doesn't, nor does Olofsson.  In theory, neither Thompson nor Cozens will either.

No?

- - 

To my mind I didn't see a limited Eichel that year. He had 54 assists. 

I'm not really advocating for Skinner going back to that spot, I'd like to see Hall there. I was interpreting the discussion more so as being about the types of players he plays well with, not so much advocating for specific current line placements. 

It started out for my part as a response to dudacek's question about the players we've seen Skinner have chemistry with. 

The top 6 they've used thus far is the exact one I advocated for all offseason. 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Thorny

[Doohickie]

6 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

The reclamation of the Concept of Jeff Skinner? 

That is the hope.

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

Ah ok I agree then, I read it wrong as if you were comparing Cozens and Ruotsalainen to Lazar and Skinner in terms of stylistic fits. As in Cozens or Ruotsalainen filling in the Skinner role. Which I think neither are like. 

These are good, and importantly majorly even strength goals. We don't necessarily need to equate chemistry with flashy passing plays imo. He scored his goals mostly in the ways you mentioned when he played with Jack, wouldn't we still say they have chemistry? Skinner doesn't "click" in the traditional ways with guys, but he meshes well with possession drivers - you have to get Skinner into the offensive zone, there he can either do his thing or he's savvy enough to capitalize on the close calls generated by other, better, more well rounded players. 

He scored 37 in Carolina in 16-17 with Victor Rask, 30 at even strength.  To me that's chemistry - I think in the end he levels out similarly in the macro to other defensively weak one-dimensional offensive players: playing with a great player is going to cover up for his deficiencies, and playing with great possession players will also get the job done, because he has the ability to get it done to a high relative degree, individually, in the o-zone. 

We saw how good the Jack - Skinner combo was. The way the output comes about doesn't scream "chemistry" but it's the output that matters, in the end.

It doesn't really surprise me Krueger seems so adverse to him being on a top line - "synergy" is his biggest buzzword maybe, I could see him being put off by the individualistic nature that Skinner operates under in the offensive zone. I'd argue the uncontrolled rebound assist off a goalie's pad that JE so often generates is just as valuable if it's a process that can be repeated to consistent positive results - and we did see that over a full season already. 

Great stuff. I wasn’t aware of Rask.

Im also not overly familiar with his style, but he sure seems to fit the profile of Skinner not needing an elite player, just the right player.

Totally agree with the Skinner/Eichel points. I’ve never had an issue with them playing together (it clearly benefits Skinner) just with the idea that Skinner needs Jack. I also think there’s merit in Taro’s idea that Jack might not be be maximized with Skinner, but the goal,should be maximizing the entire corps, not any one player.

Speaking of maximizing, love @Curt’s Skinner Eakin Cozens idea. Skinner and Eakin can feed each others strength and hide each other’s weakness. Ralph can slide Kyle there instead of Cozens if the matchup dictates savvy over speed.

Edited January 9, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorny]

29 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Great stuff. I wasn’t aware of Rask.

Im also not overly familiar with his style, but he sure seems to fit the profile of Skinner not needing an elite player, just the right player.

Totally agree with the Skinner/Eichel points. I’ve never had an issue with them playing together (it clearly benefits Skinner) just with the idea that Skinner needs Jack. I also think there’s merit in Taro’s idea that Jack might not be be maximized with Skinner, but the goal,should be maximizing the entire corps, not any one player.

Speaking of maximizing, love @Curt’s Skinner Eakin Cozens idea. Skinner and Eakin can feed each others strength and hide each other’s weakness. Ralph can slide Kyle there instead of Cozens if the matchup dictates savvy over speed.

Exactly right (and again for the record I agree w/him that Hall should get the first crack). 

And it's precisely why we can't be adverse to the idea of Skinner on a lower line, on its face - we don't get the most valuable return possible on his giganto contract by maximizing what he contributes, but rather by playing him in the position that best maximizes the results of the team. 

And it's why I wanted Reinhart bumped down and Olofsson kept up w/Jack - there was an opportunity to ask more of Reinhart and continue asking less of Olofsson. 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Thorny

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Curt said:

My lines if Skinner is off the top 6:

Hall-Eichel-Thompson 

Olofsson-Staal-Reinhart

Skinner-Eakin-Cozens

Reider-Lazar-Okposo

I can get on board with Skinner on a 3rd line, but he needs some talent to play off of.

If Skinner isn't up to 2nd line we're sunk plain and simple so it doesn't matter.

I would like to try this:

Hall-Eichel-Cozens

Skinner-Staal-Reinhart

Olofsson-Eakin-Thompson

Reider-Lazar-Okposo

and if Cozens isn't up to that role Olofsson switches wings and moves up and you shuffle the bottom 6 around in some manner with whoever plays best. 

I see Cozens as 2C eventually, but who knows what the future holds and who will actually be here. 

[I-90 W]

Any word on JJ Peterka? Assuming he is still in Germany and didn’t come to camp? 

[North Buffalo]

 

Scrimmage live on facebook at 7p today

https://www.facebook.com/15106442953/posts/10158890253612954/?d=n

Edited January 9, 2021 by North Buffalo

[Curt]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

If Skinner isn't up to 2nd line we're sunk plain and simple so it doesn't matter.

So, I take this to mean that you do not believe there is any possible configuration of lines in which Skinner plays well on line 3?

The only reason that I put out this post is because Skinner skated with the 3rd line in camp yesterday.

[LTS]

1 hour ago, I-90 W said:

Any word on JJ Peterka? Assuming he is still in Germany and didn’t come to camp? 

That's correct. The Sabres wanted him back in Germany to develop.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

 

So, I take this to mean that you do not believe there is any possible configuration of lines in which Skinner plays well on line 3?

The only reason that I put out this post is because Skinner skated with the 3rd line in camp yesterday.

Skinner will play on any line he is assigned to. But that begs the question of which line will he be most effective i.e. score goals. As a third liner regardless how it is constituted his production potential relative to his contract is severely devalued. 

My sense (opinion) is that Skinner is not a Krueger guy for a variety of reasons. Skinner has a tendency to float and not play a disciplined and responsible style of play entering and in the defensive zone. That is contrary to Krueger's tighter and cover for your mates philosophy. 

Skinner is a veteran who has for the most part been a productive player. I just wish the coach would be more flexible and require less structure with him on a line. I just think that if he is not on the second line (at least) his desperately needed asset of scoring goals is being diminished and squandered. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

 

So, I take this to mean that you do not believe there is any possible configuration of lines in which Skinner plays well on line 3?

The only reason that I put out this post is because Skinner skated with the 3rd line in camp yesterday.

Because RK has no idea how to put together lines.  Cody Eakin has zero ability to help get Skinner back to being a 40 goal winger.  

[dudacek]

Interesting that Mittelstadt was again listed as playing wing during practice.

I wonder if this is going to be a thing. I think he’s been there every day but one.

[dudacek]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Skinner will play on any line he is assigned to. But that begs the question of which line will he be most effective i.e. score goals. As a third liner regardless how it is constituted his production potential relative to his contract is severely devalued. 

My sense (opinion) is that Skinner is not a Krueger guy for a variety of reasons. Skinner has a tendency to float and not play a disciplined and responsible style of play entering and in the defensive zone. That is contrary to Krueger's tighter and cover for your mates philosophy. 

Skinner is a veteran who has for the most part been a productive player. I just wish the coach would be more flexible and require less structure with him on a line. I just think that if he is not on the second line (at least) his desperately needed asset of scoring goals is being diminished and squandered. 

 

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Because RK has no idea how to put together lines.  Cody Eakin has zero ability to help get Skinner back to being a 40 goal winger.  

Is this more an ice time thing, or a linemates thing?

Skinner scored 37 with Victor Rask as his centre.

Edited January 9, 2021 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Interesting that Mittelstadt was again listed as playing wing during practice.

I wonder if this is going to be a thing. I think he’s been there every day but one.

So is Routsalanen.  Makes sense.  We need skill wingers in the organization and have a bunch of depth centers like Lazar, Sheahan and Eakin along with Cozens.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

 

Is this more an ice time thing, or a linemates thing?

Skinner scored 37 with Victor Rask as his centre.

It’s a diminished Eakin thing, it’s a lack of linemates thing, and an ice time thing.  It’s a combination of dumb.  We saw last year what Skinner looks like without proper linemates. Do you really want to see that again. I’d rather see him try Cozens centering Skinner.  

[dudacek]

Does anyone not think the 15 forwards and 9 defencemen they are carrying in the top group now, plus Cozens, is going to be the roster opening day? With the 3 goalies, that’s 28 and they can carry 29.

Cozens, R2, Casey, Borgen and Johansson are waiver exempt. If they waive Davidson, who is likely to pass (Sheahan, Irwin and Lazar are other candidates) that is the roster and taxi squad set. Any one of the taxi squadders can play at any time with no consideration for waivers. If they wanted to dress two or more at once, they would have to waive somebody, or move somebody to IR.