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dudacek

Robin Lehner on mental health, cancel culture, and bad people

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Really interesting interview here with the Athletic, in the wake of the Peters situation.

https://theathletic.com/1433063/2019/12/04/these-people-are-not-evil-people-robin-lehner-on-cancel-culture-mental-health-education-and-second-chances/

Inspired by his assistant coach Marc Crawford being investigated, but far more wide-ranging.

Edited by dudacek
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Some snippets:

“I can say pretty open and honestly that I believe that 95 percent of every type of that type of scenario of the coaches discussion that’s in the moment right now, 95 percent of these coaches, they’re not evil people. Maybe 5 percent are an evil person. These people are not evil people. They’re not bad people. They don’t want to screw people over. But we’re judging people’s actions many, many years ago through today’s society’s glasses, which is highly immoral. So what I mean with that, 10 years ago when I came into the league, 15-20 years ago, those things were the norm. It was the norm. Because these types of people thought that that was the best way of bringing performance. I think in general, hockey and sports systems in general stems from the military quite a bit, on how to get ready your troops to go into battle and what they thought at the time was the best way to prepare someone to become stronger or be able to take pressure. That was the education level back then. That’s what they thought worked. Does that make them a bad person?

“It’s as much as we pretend that no one has issues and no one has mental health problems. We all deal with something. But we pretend that we’re so much better than everyone else. The cancel culture is killing me because the hypocrisy is out of this world. It really is. And I feel bad that the coaches are the ones next in line to get destroyed with no fair hearing, no fair structure. And we as a league and players haven’t given them an opportunity to change. We haven’t talked to them, we haven’t educated them, we haven’t educated ourselves.

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He talks about being a bad person himself and the chance he’s been given not to be.

The related concepts of judgment, consequences and redemption make for a fascinating discussion.

Edited by dudacek
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5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Some snippets:

“I can say pretty open and honestly that I believe that 95 percent of every type of that type of scenario of the coaches discussion that’s in the moment right now, 95 percent of these coaches, they’re not evil people. Maybe 5 percent are an evil person. These people are not evil people. They’re not bad people. They don’t want to screw people over. But we’re judging people’s actions many, many years ago through today’s society’s glasses, which is highly immoral. So what I mean with that, 10 years ago when I came into the league, 15-20 years ago, those things were the norm. It was the norm. Because these types of people thought that that was the best way of bringing performance. I think in general, hockey and sports systems in general stems from the military quite a bit, on how to get ready your troops to go into battle and what they thought at the time was the best way to prepare someone to become stronger or be able to take pressure. That was the education level back then. That’s what they thought worked. Does that make them a bad person?

“It’s as much as we pretend that no one has issues and no one has mental health problems. We all deal with something. But we pretend that we’re so much better than everyone else. The cancel culture is killing me because the hypocrisy is out of this world. It really is. And I feel bad that the coaches are the ones next in line to get destroyed with no fair hearing, no fair structure. And we as a league and players haven’t given them an opportunity to change. We haven’t talked to them, we haven’t educated them, we haven’t educated ourselves.

Well said. 

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9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Some snippets:

“I can say pretty open and honestly that I believe that 95 percent of every type of that type of scenario of the coaches discussion that’s in the moment right now, 95 percent of these coaches, they’re not evil people. Maybe 5 percent are an evil person. These people are not evil people. They’re not bad people. They don’t want to screw people over. But we’re judging people’s actions many, many years ago through today’s society’s glasses, which is highly immoral. So what I mean with that, 10 years ago when I came into the league, 15-20 years ago, those things were the norm. It was the norm. Because these types of people thought that that was the best way of bringing performance. I think in general, hockey and sports systems in general stems from the military quite a bit, on how to get ready your troops to go into battle and what they thought at the time was the best way to prepare someone to become stronger or be able to take pressure. That was the education level back then. That’s what they thought worked. Does that make them a bad person?

“It’s as much as we pretend that no one has issues and no one has mental health problems. We all deal with something. But we pretend that we’re so much better than everyone else. The cancel culture is killing me because the hypocrisy is out of this world. It really is. And I feel bad that the coaches are the ones next in line to get destroyed with no fair hearing, no fair structure. And we as a league and players haven’t given them an opportunity to change. We haven’t talked to them, we haven’t educated them, we haven’t educated ourselves.

Thank you for posting snippets from the athletic. Too many posters just throw up links and assume everyone can read the article beyond a paragraph or so. (Usually the cut off point for non subscribers). You, get it.  And I thank you.

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I am overwhelmed ...  with so many thoughts.

Sparing you all a 2,500 word NeoThon ...

1). Lehner just leapt seven categories higher on my “public persons with something important to say” list.

2). Cancel Culture.  Perfect shorthand for all that’s wrong with viewing yesterday through today’s lens.  That mistake is often a characteristic of youth.  I erred.  The mistake is more prevalent, now, and it’s not disappearing as human beings age through youth into adulthood.

3). Gotcha ...  is a bad instinct.

4). Yoda*:  Beware, Progress ...  you are tomorrow’s yesterday.

5).  Good people behave badly.  There is a graceful way to address this.  Being graceful is always a good idea.  It’s a critical idea when standards change day to day, even when the change is righteous.  Ward Cleaver was not a toxic male.

6).  The Athletic is the best bargain in paid sports media.

7).  @dudacek, thank you.

 

 

26C8D759-5DE2-48E2-8444-46F59C3FFE6C.jpeg

0E4E6EDC-E7A4-4F05-9C2F-E4779E8E92AC.png

 

*  Recognizing the iconic status of Yoda, and the large number of people who are fans of his films, I point out here that Yoda never said that.  I made it up.

 

Edited by Neo
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11 hours ago, Neo said:

I am overwhelmed ...  with so many thoughts.

Sparing you all a 2,500 word NeoThon ...

1). Lehner just leapt seven categories higher on my “public persons with something important to say” list.

2). Cancel Culture.  Perfect shorthand for all that’s wrong with viewing yesterday through today’s lens.  That mistake is often a characteristic of youth.  I erred.  The mistake is more prevalent, now, and it’s not disappearing as human beings age through youth into adulthood.

3). Gotcha ...  is a bad instinct.

4). Yoda*:  Beware, Progress ...  you are tomorrow’s yesterday.

5).  Good people behave badly.  There is a graceful way to address this.  Being graceful is always a good idea.  It’s a critical idea when standards change day to day, even when the change is righteous.  Ward Cleaver was not a toxic male.

6).  The Athletic is the best bargain in paid sports media.

7).  @dudacek, thank you.

 

 

26C8D759-5DE2-48E2-8444-46F59C3FFE6C.jpeg

0E4E6EDC-E7A4-4F05-9C2F-E4779E8E92AC.png

 

*  Recognizing the iconic status of Yoda, and the large number of people who are fans of his films, I point out here that Yoda never said that.  I made it up.

 

Being 61, growing up on the West Side, Catholic schools, living in a two family house with grandparents, aunts and uncles in the lower  flat.  Raised by a village.  

Fast forward to today where I have lived in 8 cities, raised 3 kids, been away from hometown forever.  A boomer raising millennials.  Information is available to them instantly but is it the right information?   Will they consult me, or their friends, or the Internet?  

Its been interesting, and thankfully the close involvement with my kids has taught me a lot about today’s generation.  That, and I help recruit and mentor engineers for a very large company which keeps me tied in to some very bright young minds   

Sometime I have trouble understanding all the things that people fight about or that offend so many people.  

Cancel culture -  I can’t or won’t judge a person like Thomas Jefferson through today’s lens.   I guess it applies mostly to today’s pop stars.  I hope it is not used more broadly and related to the rewriting of history - that would concern me.  

 

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At the same time, what Bill Peters allegedly said wasn't OK 10 or 20 or 30 years ago either. I haven't been following this soap opera that closely, but I the ones I do know are:

  • Bill Peters used a racial slur towards a player 10 years ago: not OK now or then
  • Babcock allegedly has been bullying players up until his Toronto firing and Franzen commented about how it happened years ago: not OK now, maybe "the culture" was OK then but it's still an a$*(%*# thing to do
  • Crawford allegedly kicked Avery during a game and punched and choked Sopel: maybe that's the culture of hockey too, and is feeding my growing distaste for sports in general. It certainly hasn't been OK for someone to physically abuse another employee at work for decades, I'm not sure I give the guy a pass for it.

So what are people complaining about? Essentially, people here are upset that players are speaking up that some coaches are/were gigantic a$(%*$# and they're tired of it. If I had a boss like that, I'd be out of there in a heartbeat. In sports, there's a such a limited number of jobs players don't always have that luxury and even asking for a trade may end your career.

Maybe Crawford has cleaned up his act, and that point I guess I give him the benefit of a doubt that he's seen the error of his ways. Peters can go to heck, racists need to be run out of town. I'm less likely to give Babcock the benefit of a doubt if he cleaned up his act in the future since it's now and I'm completely fine with judging him by today's standards.

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16 hours ago, dudacek said:

He talks about being a bad person himself and the chance he’s been given not to be.

I wonder if he was raised Catholic?  😇😈

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Interesting points on cancel culture, to be sure.  Really making me think.

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

I wonder if he was raised Catholic?  😇😈

In Sweden?  Possible, but pretty doubtful.

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4 hours ago, Eleven said:

Interesting points on cancel culture, to be sure.  Really making me think.

In Sweden?  Possible, but pretty doubtful.

I know.  But the whole self-loathing thing is very Catholic-ish. 

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"I hope it is not used more broadly and related to the rewriting of history."  Unfortunately Pimlach, it is happening in our public schools today. It started slowly 15 years ago or so but is very prevalent now.

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26 minutes ago, sabresouth said:

"I hope it is not used more broadly and related to the rewriting of history."  Unfortunately Pimlach, it is happening in our public schools today. It started slowly 15 years ago or so but is very prevalent now.

Can you elaborate on this?  I’ve no doubt that it happens but I’m wondering what you have in mind specially.

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2 hours ago, sabresouth said:

"I hope it is not used more broadly and related to the rewriting of history."  Unfortunately Pimlach, it is happening in our public schools today. It started slowly 15 years ago or so but is very prevalent now.

 

1 hour ago, Curt said:

Can you elaborate on this?  I’ve no doubt that it happens but I’m wondering what you have in mind specially.

Perspectives on history have always evolved as time goes on, either as new information comes to light or the long-term effects become apparent. I have no doubt the perspective on (say) Civil Rights or the Nixon Presidency were not taught the same in 1980 as when I learned them in the early 90s.

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22 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I know.  But the whole self-loathing thing is very Catholic-ish. 

Nah.  We don't do that.

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