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sweetlou

2019 Off Season

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26 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

Pretty much the same as if we had kept him. That's the biggest blunder of the trade Botterill made. He moved out O'Reilly's $7.5 million cap hit and downgraded the talent all while bringing in $8.275 million in cap hits ($3.85 million for Berglund, $3.5 million for Sobotka, and $925,000 for Thompson) so that's a poor argument. Sure he lucked out after the fact with Berglund walking away, but to suggest we moved O'Reilly for cap space so we could upgrade other areas is completely misleading. O'Reilly actually produced enough to justify his cap hit, unlike the proceeds of what we received by trading him.

1.The bolded is absolutely false....Sheary and Skinner and the players that would still need to be added to fill at least 2 out of 3 spots vacated by Berg/ Sobotka/ TT could never happen under the cap.

2.under-lined....nothing is more misleading than people saying that they knew at the time of the trade that it was a bad deal, Bergy had issues, and Botts should have known all these players would under-perform or walk away. 

3.Salary cap of ROR verses salary cap of the return is also utmost misleading. ROR had 5yrs left for a total $37.5M. The total to be paid out over the term of the contracts for players in return was about $25M.

4, production is the only part of you argument that makes sense, however.....If those players came here and over-performed would we be having this conversation or would you be saying"I knew it was a great deal when I heard it" and "ROR wanted out of here anyway". LOL

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43 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

1.The bolded is absolutely false....Sheary and Skinner and the players that would still need to be added to fill at least 2 out of 3 spots vacated by Berg/ Sobotka/ TT could never happen under the cap.

2.under-lined....nothing is more misleading than people saying that they knew at the time of the trade that it was a bad deal, Bergy had issues, and Botts should have known all these players would under-perform or walk away. 

3.Salary cap of ROR verses salary cap of the return is also utmost misleading. ROR had 5yrs left for a total $37.5M. The total to be paid out over the term of the contracts for players in return was about $25M.

4, production is the only part of you argument that makes sense, however.....If those players came here and over-performed would we be having this conversation or would you be saying"I knew it was a great deal when I heard it" and "ROR wanted out of here anyway". LOL

1. You're full of it. Trading O'Reilly actually cost us cap space for this season so if we had enough space to acquire Skinner and Sheary after the trade, we certainly would have had the space to do it if we hadn't traded him. Sure some spots may have had to go to some guys on cheap contracts like Wilson, Smith, O'Regan, or Nylander, but it definitely could have been done. I'd rather spend $1 million in cap space watching Wilson and Smith play on the bottom 6 than spend $3.85 million to see Berglund play on the 4th line and paying Sobotka $3.5 million to ride the bench or play bottom 6 duties. Anyone playing for league minimum would have been preferable than overpaying for those bums, especially if it means we keep our second best forward.

Skinner           Eichel            Mittelstadt

Sheary            O'Reilly          Reinhart

Wilson            Rodriguez      Okposo

Girgensons     Larsson         Pominville

Smith

I'm pretty sure that forward lineup fits under the cap, if not you give some team a second round pick and maybe a prospect if you have to for them to take Pominville and replace him with a cheap guy from Rochester, some veteran who makes the league minimum, or a waiver pick up.

2. Plenty of posters here (myself included) thought it was a bad trade as soon as it was announced, so it's not a hindsight is 20/20 type situation. Sure we got repeatedly shouted down when the Blues started losing early in the season thanks in part to crappy goaltending and Tarasenko starting the season off in a scoring slump, but there were many of us who didn't like the trade from the get go.

I've been saying it would be a mistake to trade Ristolainen for over a year (people wanted to trade him for Klefbom before we even had Montour and all we had on the right side was him, the always injured Bogosian, and Nelson). If they do end up trading Ristolainen, I think it will be a colossal mistake. If it comes to pass and the defense suffers, it won't be hindsight. I fear that FXGMJB is going to trade him to try to fix his #2 center mistake and the guy we get won't be nearly as good a O'Reily was, which means we'll end up downgrading at 2 critical positions (#2 C and RHD).

3. I don't care that we save a few million in cap long term. I care that players produce to justify their cap hit. O'Reilly earns his money, Berglund and Sobotka clearly don't/didn't. We were fortunate Berglund quit and ran home and saved us the future cap hits. That doesn't suddenly make it some shrewd cap saving move by FXGMJB.

4. There's a search function on the boards. Every post is archived. I don't believe in revisionist history. I like some trades and hate others. Sometimes I'm right sometimes I'm wrong but I never try to pretend I was right when I wasn't because it's relatively easy to go back and check.

Trades I've liked: Skinner, Sheary (even though it hasn't exactly paid off), Montour, Scandella and Pominville

Trades I've hated: Kane, O'Reilly, and if they trade Ristolainen it will be a huge mistake

Furthermore I like Murray and still don't ***** on him even though most do. I absolutely detested his coach (Bylsma) though because I can't stand dump and chase style hockey and I hated his system. Transversely I hate Botterill and his approach of trading prime pieces for scraps, but I like Housley's system and I'm glad he's the coach even though the Sabres are struggling and sometimes he looks like he's in over his head.

Edited by Drunkard

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The ROR trade was bad. Unless we hit big time on that first we lost it by a landslide. 

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1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

The ROR trade was bad. Unless we hit big time on that first we lost it by a landslide. 

Yes, hindsight is 20-20, but I don't see any way to spin it into a positive.  My only question is whether GMJB was forced by ownership to make a deal or did he himself initiate the move?  If the direction came from above, then I saw he did the best he could given the hand he was dealt.

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Just now, New Scotland (NS) said:

@Drunkard,

I will assume (hate to do that) you mean our friend is full of wit and wisdom, eh?

Quite the opposite.

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On 2/28/2019 at 6:25 PM, inkman said:

What's that gonna look like to O'Regan, Smith, Olofsson, all of whom have passed this bum on the depth chart.

Agreed. The draft is long over, it doesn't matter as much about your draft position now, it's how you are performing.  Your list of players performing better than Nylander does expose our lack of talent in Rochester. 

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22 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

Yes, hindsight is 20-20, but I don't see any way to spin it into a positive.  My only question is whether GMJB was forced by ownership to make a deal or did he himself initiate the move?  If the direction came from above, then I saw he did the best he could given the hand he was dealt.

A lot of people thought it was bad when it happened so not a lot of hindsight. 

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Saw in the BN today that an Illinois-based company, Gerber Collision and Glass, has acquired Carubba Collision and its network of 18 stores.  Next season, I think BOGO will be the first winner of the Gerber Collision & Glass award.

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3 minutes ago, Tondas said:

Saw in the BN today that an Illinois-based company, Gerber Collision and Glass, has acquired Carubba Collision and its network of 18 stores.  Next season, I think BOGO will be the first winner of the Gerber Collision & Glass award.

It's like life imitating art imitating life imitating art.

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Last night summed up this entire season.

For me in crystallized the off-season priorities.

1) Re-sign Skinner

2) Find 1-2 new stay at home D, primarily one to play with Dahlin.

3) Second line center - Risto for JT Miller sounds better by the day.

4) Scoring Winger(s).  We need at least 1 additional scoring winger. We have no finish.  Jbot needs to give Thompson for time to grow into his body and we need to give Olofsson a shot to win 1 of the 2 scoring winger slots, but I think we need to draft at least one such player and get one from elsewhere for next year.

5) Trade Scandella and Risto to help finance those acquisitions.

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4 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

So am I looking at right now and you could never prove that we would be in the playoffs if ROR trade never happened.

No, I can't...didn't say that. I said the trade didn't improve the team and I don't think it has

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2 hours ago, Tondas said:

Saw in the BN today that an Illinois-based company, Gerber Collision and Glass, has acquired Carubba Collision and its network of 18 stores.  Next season, I think BOGO will be the first winner of the Gerber Collision & Glass award.

The baby fud folks expanded their operation?  When did this happen?

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4 hours ago, Drunkard said:

1. You're full of it. Trading O'Reilly actually cost us cap space for this season so if we had enough space to acquire Skinner and Sheary after the trade, we certainly would have had the space to do it if we hadn't traded him. Sure some spots may have had to go to some guys on cheap contracts like Wilson, Smith, O'Regan, or Nylander, but it definitely could have been done. I'd rather spend $1 million in cap space watching Wilson and Smith play on the bottom 6 than spend $3.85 million to see Berglund play on the 4th line and paying Sobotka $3.5 million to ride the bench or play bottom 6 duties. Anyone playing for league minimum would have been preferable than overpaying for those bums, especially if it means we keep our second best forward.

Skinner           Eichel            Mittelstadt

Sheary            O'Reilly          Reinhart

Wilson            Rodriguez      Okposo

Girgensons     Larsson         Pominville

Smith

I'm pretty sure that forward lineup fits under the cap, if not you give some team a second round pick and maybe a prospect if you have to for them to take Pominville and replace him with a cheap guy from Rochester, some veteran who makes the league minimum, or a waiver pick up.

2. Plenty of posters here (myself included) thought it was a bad trade as soon as it was announced, so it's not a hindsight is 20/20 type situation. Sure we got repeatedly shouted down when the Blues started losing early in the season thanks in part to crappy goaltending and Tarasenko starting the season off in a scoring slump, but there were many of us who didn't like the trade from the get go.

I've been saying it would be a mistake to trade Ristolainen for over a year (people wanted to trade him for Klefbom before we even had Montour and all we had on the right side was him, the always injured Bogosian, and Nelson). If they do end up trading Ristolainen, I think it will be a colossal mistake. If it comes to pass and the defense suffers, it won't be hindsight. I fear that FXGMJB is going to trade him to try to fix his #2 center mistake and the guy we get won't be nearly as good a O'Reily was, which means we'll end up downgrading at 2 critical positions (#2 C and RHD).

3. I don't care that we save a few million in cap long term. I care that players produce to justify their cap hit. O'Reilly earns his money, Berglund and Sobotka clearly don't/didn't. We were fortunate Berglund quit and ran home and saved us the future cap hits. That doesn't suddenly make it some shrewd cap saving move by FXGMJB.

4. There's a search function on the boards. Every post is archived. I don't believe in revisionist history. I like some trades and hate others. Sometimes I'm right sometimes I'm wrong but I never try to pretend I was right when I wasn't because it's relatively easy to go back and check.

Trades I've liked: Skinner, Sheary (even though it hasn't exactly paid off), Montour, Scandella and Pominville

Trades I've hated: Kane, O'Reilly, and if they trade Ristolainen it will be a huge mistake

Furthermore I like Murray and still don't ***** on him even though most do. I absolutely detested his coach (Bylsma) though because I can't stand dump and chase style hockey and I hated his system. Transversely I hate Botterill and his approach of trading prime pieces for scraps, but I like Housley's system and I'm glad he's the coach even though the Sabres are struggling and sometimes he looks like he's in over his head.

Its all hindsight because you and everyone else could've "felt" what ever way you wanted but still knew nothing. That includes whether or not ROR actually wanted to be here or not. You can say it was a bad deal but that's like a Judge making a ruling and sentencing before the jury comes out with their verdict or even before either side has presented all the facts.

If Berg/ Sobotka/ TT the 1st rd pick which hasn't even been used yet and the 2nd rd pick which is yet to come, had all over-achieved and made Botts look like a genius I would expect to hear the same BS from 1000 other people. Or better yet....what if ROR had a bad season or got injured and missed most of the year.

While all you people who "think" they know everything after the fact (which all the facts really won't be out for years), I'll sit here still on the fence leaning to one side until the verdict is in. We may never know all the facts in this trade and even if we do how do you evaluate things like Bergy walking away, whether ROR wanted to be here or not, where the $12M saved actually gets spent if it does, etc.

There are plenty on this team that you could say aren't earning their money. Bergland is one that you'll never know if he would've earned it or not because he wasn't here long enough. But most believe he was a cap dump (along with Sabotka) and those type players are not really expected to produce up to par, that's why the "dump".

If they trade Risto and the D flourishes then what? We hear from the guys that wanted the trade that it wasn't hindsight.

We agree on something at least...we like Phil and his system.

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16 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Its all hindsight because you and everyone else could've "felt" what ever way you wanted but still knew nothing. That includes whether or not ROR actually wanted to be here or not. You can say it was a bad deal but that's like a Judge making a ruling and sentencing before the jury comes out with their verdict or even before either side has presented all the facts.

If Berg/ Sobotka/ TT the 1st rd pick which hasn't even been used yet and the 2nd rd pick which is yet to come, had all over-achieved and made Botts look like a genius I would expect to hear the same BS from 1000 other people. Or better yet....what if ROR had a bad season or got injured and missed most of the year.

While all you people who "think" they know everything after the fact (which all the facts really won't be out for years), I'll sit here still on the fence leaning to one side until the verdict is in. We may never know all the facts in this trade and even if we do how do you evaluate things like Bergy walking away, whether ROR wanted to be here or not, where the $12M saved actually gets spent if it does, etc.

There are plenty on this team that you could say aren't earning their money. Bergland is one that you'll never know if he would've earned it or not because he wasn't here long enough. But most believe he was a cap dump (along with Sabotka) and those type players are not really expected to produce up to par, that's why the "dump".

If they trade Risto and the D flourishes then what? We hear from the guys that wanted the trade that it wasn't hindsight.

We agree on something at least...we like Phil and his system.

We're never going to know everything, especially the behind the scenes stuff, so if we're only supposed to discuss things we know everything about then 90% of the posts on this board wouldn't get made. I doubt that's what Scott/SDS had in mind when he started this board.

To make statements like I'll never know if Berglund would have earned his money or not is akin to saying not to share opinions on it because the jury is still out or some type of excuse. He produced poorly while he was here and couldn't contribute anything better than 4th line duties. He was 30 years old and already in decline. Botterill is fortunate that the team doesn't have to pay for that mistake for 3 more seasons. A crystal ball and all the behind the scenes information isn't needed to believe that's the likely outcome. The odds he was suddenly going to start producing at 31 or 32 when he sucked at 30 isn't very high.

If they trade Ristolainen and the D flourishes, so be it. I'd rather not see FXGMJB try to fix his #2 center mistake by shipping him off, especially now that we finally have a solid stable of defenseman on the right hand side with him, Montour, and Bogosian, plus Nelson as depth and Borgen developing in the minors. It's Botterill's job to make that call and all his decisions will ultimately add up to whether he keeps his job long term or not. If he trades Ristolainen and the defense gets better, he'll probably keep his job. If the defense gets worse, I hope they toss him in the street before he can make any more stupid trades that hurt the team.

You can fence sit all you want, but if everyone did that debate on this board would grind to a halt. I don't see the point in that. If everyone waited for the verdict to be in on everything, this place would suck and we'd only be able to talk about stuff from 10 years ago without discussing our speculating on the present or future of the team.

Edited by Drunkard
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Still think Risto needs to go...I'm like Marty Biron on this one.  Sometimes I love his game and how aggressive he is on the defensive end, but other times I wonder if he has any clue what is going on out there.  He was literally standing still at the blue line during the break out pass on Draistle goal. He often looks lost in his own end, and his passing is not the best.  

 

I still would move him but not to Tampa, send him out West.

 

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7 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

Still think Risto needs to go...I'm like Marty Biron on this one.  Sometimes I love his game and how aggressive he is on the defensive end, but other times I wonder if he has any clue what is going on out there.  He was literally standing still at the blue line during the break out pass on Draistle goal. He often looks lost in his own end, and his passing is not the best.  

 

I still would move him but not to Tampa, send him out West.

 

So what would you target in return?  If it is not another RH defenseman, how do you propose replacing his spot?  I am not saying Risto is untouchable, but the return has to be significant to replace his minutes.  He has played every game and has been in or near the top 10 in the league as far as hits, no other Sabre player is in the top 50.  Nobody on the team today will do that.

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2 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

So what would you target in return?  If it is not another RH defenseman, how do you propose replacing his spot?  I am not saying Risto is untouchable, but the return has to be significant to replace his minutes.  He has played every game and has been in or near the top 10 in the league as far as hits, no other Sabre player is in the top 50.  Nobody on the team today will do that.

Things that don't matter: Hits. Here are the hits per game numbers for all the teams. The only pattern is there is no pattern. Pittsburgh has the most hits and Calgary has the least. Buffalo is near the bottom but Anaheim is near the top. Because hits have no correlation to winning. 

https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/team-stats?season=2018&category=MISCELLANEOUS&group=1&time=0&pos=0&team=1&page=1

 

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2 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

So what would you target in return?  If it is not another RH defenseman, how do you propose replacing his spot?  I am not saying Risto is untouchable, but the return has to be significant to replace his minutes.  He has played every game and has been in or near the top 10 in the league as far as hits, no other Sabre player is in the top 50.  Nobody on the team today will do that.

Hits for the sake of hits doesn't matter unless you play tough.  To me defenseman should lead their teams in hits.  

As far a return there are a couple of scenarios I would look at.

Edmonton- give me Puljujarvi and Benning for Risto.

Vancouver- Horvat and Virtanen for Risto and San Jose first rd.

 

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Next year we will see an increase In Dahlin’s and Montour’s Minutes which will eat up a majority of Risto’s Minutes. Dahlin can pair with Nelson and McCabe-Montour. Dahlin and Montour excel at exiting the defensive zone with the puck something that Risto struggles at. With more puck possession comes a decreased need to hit the opposition. For those incidents where hitting is required, Bogosian will still be available. 

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3 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

So what would you target in return?  If it is not another RH defenseman, how do you propose replacing his spot?  I am not saying Risto is untouchable, but the return has to be significant to replace his minutes.  He has played every game and has been in or near the top 10 in the league as far as hits, no other Sabre player is in the top 50.  Nobody on the team today will do that.

Other fun Risto facts... he is dead last in the league in +/- with -33

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I think the trade with Vancouver would be intriguing to them and the draft is being held in Vancouver this year.  They get an additional first round pick and a "top" tier defenseman. They have a number #1 center in Petterson so they may be willing to move Horvat for a Risto.

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8 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

I think the trade with Vancouver would be intriguing to them and the draft is being held in Vancouver this year.  They get an additional first round pick and a "top" tier defenseman. They have a number #1 center in Petterson so they may be willing to move Horvat for a Risto.

You aren't trading Risto and a 1st to Vancouver for Horvat and Virtanen. At the very least you are getting back 1 of Woo, Juolevi, or in a crazy world Hughes. 

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48 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Other fun Risto facts... he is dead last in the league in +/- with -33

Yup, but start watching closely as he is a minutes eater and on the ice but not necessarily responsible for the goals against. Not saying he isn't responsible some times but more often than not the other players are not doing their job or goalie lets in a soft one and the puck ends up in the net and Risto happens to be on the ice.

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Vancouver has only three good forwards. They aren't trading Horvat.

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