Sabres Fan in NS Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 This was only a concern before Tom sold to Terry. Terry doesn't deserve any credit for keeping the Sabres here. He has to. http://www.espn.com/nhl/news/story?id=6087856 Correct. For all our joking about OSP he did save the Sabres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woods-racer Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) Terry may have to, but if he sells the team will the next owner? When Terry dies will his successors? Edited November 21, 2017 by Woods-Racer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcsaberks Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 GREAT discussion at TBD. Should the Pegulas Cash Out? https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/198772-should-the-pegulas-cash-out/ The folks are starting to catch on. I would see it as cashing out more so to distance themselves from the draining suck / wasted energy we are all feeling. I suspect they are feeling it 10x worse than fans as they actually have some component of responsibility in the equation "what can we do differently?". And I don't think they are at all the problem. Minus TP's initial spend on Erhoff and Leino, and loyalty to LR DR (which I admired at the time) their recent stuff / hires have not been out of the box. Look around the leagues you'll find some exceptions of "great owners" and "bad owners" but I don't think it's that simple. As for thread topic - build through Amerks is all I got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Terry may have to, but if he sells the team will the next owner? I think he would put that same clause in any buy-sell agreement. +++++ I don't think Terry will sell anytime soon. He has invested a lot in the team and city. The final choice I tend to agree, but the two studs of the tank(s) never had that opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 As for thread topic - build through Amerks is all I got. Then JBot is the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabresFanInRochester Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Health & Confidence. Risto on IR hurts the team. The Sabres had rebounded from a rough start; but after Risto left the lineup... yuck! Winning cures everything. I believe that this lineup has the ability to be competitive and play better than what we are seeing. It's too bad they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted November 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) I agree with most of you. I think the only way you turn this around is to grow a core of guys in the AHL that bond and win together. That being said, that means a few things for us - It's going to be at least 3 years- Nylander and Mittelstadt probably don't play in Buffalo next year- There is a strong likelihood Reinhart, or some other big name other than Jack and Risto, are traded. My money is on Reinhart- There is a strong likelihood that Kane is traded. Personally I believe there's a nice XOR for Reinhart and Kane. Either one but not both- This draft and last year's draft will largely determine our success- Your goalie of the future is Ukko LukkopkllkallkkllenESPN clearly ripping off my thread. Posted this article 3m after this http://www.espn.co.uk/nhl/story/_/id/21501043/nhl-how-fix-buffalo-sabres In leaving the Nashville Predators bench to take over as Sabres coach, Phil Housley went from the fifth-best possession team at 5-on-5 last season to the second-worst. The Sabres (5-12-4) aren't much better this season, with a minus-104 in shot attempts and ranking 27th in possession through 21 games. So the one key fix for the Sabres isn't a roster tweak or a lineup change but rather a plea to practice what their coach is desperately preaching.....That said, we all expected the Sabres to at least take a step forward by now. Their 5-12-4 record is as ugly as it looks. The problem in Buffalo is accountability. If you watch the games, the backchecking is dismal. Players just stand around in their own zone and wait for the puck to come to them. That effort is not acceptable.So here's my fix: Keep Eichel's third-line demotion until he finally feels enough heat and ups his game. Let him be angry, and go on a tear. Once he does that, name him captain. Stop dangling the title in front of him like an inevitability. The Sabres have a streamlined voice in the front office. Emulate that in the locker room. This is one of the youngest teams in the league, and the Sabres are working through some growing pains. They're missing leaders such as former captain Brian Gionta. If they expect Eichel to be their leader of the future, challenge him to step up now. It might be bumpy at first, but he'll grow into it -- and the team will grow around him. Edited November 21, 2017 by WildCard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Right, but even with Devellano it took YEARS until the team was successful.... like 10 years. And if you look at Jimmy. Devellano's body of work prior to Ilitch hiring him, JBot's is similar. This is a fair point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 This is a fair point. And in 10 years we may find that JBot was awful, but from this point in time, it's hard to know. Being a sports owner is a uniquely hard job. It's not something you can study in college, it's not something that being a player will adequately train you for. And given that job, think about how hard it is to hire top staff positions like GM. Each candidate will lay out a plan for success, but there are so many variables it's hard to know what the best plan is. Losing/winning a lottery, having a key player go down with an injury, finding an unexpected gem of a player, all can affect the success of a GM's plan. If Buffalo had won the McJesus lottery, things may be very different. Or maybe not. It's hard for a GM to project ahead too far, and even harder for an owner to look at those projections and decide which rosy picture to believe. Add to that the expectations created by video games and fantasy sports: In video games, past performance *does* project future success, within the bounds of the game model. You have a better idea what a player is actually worth, and given an understanding of the game, have a better idea of whether to go out on a limb or not. And it's easier on a video game to tear it all down and start again. In fantasy sports, the only chemistry you have to worry about is the chemistry of the player that's on your fantasy team and the way he interacts with his linemates. Then add in forums like this where self-described experts boldly state simple solutions to a team's problems. It makes for good conversation and (in my case) an increased understanding of the game, but put any Sabrespacer in charge of the Sabres.... do you really think the team would be any better? I don't know.... can we believe that poster's rosy picture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) And in 10 years we may find that JBot was awful, but from this point in time, it's hard to know. Being a sports owner is a uniquely hard job. It's not something you can study in college, it's not something that being a player will adequately train you for. And given that job, think about how hard it is to hire top staff positions like GM. Each candidate will lay out a plan for success, but there are so many variables it's hard to know what the best plan is. Losing/winning a lottery, having a key player go down with an injury, finding an unexpected gem of a player, all can affect the success of a GM's plan. If Buffalo had won the McJesus lottery, things may be very different. Or maybe not. It's hard for a GM to project ahead too far, and even harder for an owner to look at those projections and decide which rosy picture to believe. Add to that the expectations created by video games and fantasy sports: In video games, past performance *does* project future success, within the bounds of the game model. You have a better idea what a player is actually worth, and given an understanding of the game, have a better idea of whether to go out on a limb or not. And it's easier on a video game to tear it all down and start again. In fantasy sports, the only chemistry you have to worry about is the chemistry of the player that's on your fantasy team and the way he interacts with his linemates. Then add in forums like this where self-described experts boldly state simple solutions to a team's problems. It makes for good conversation and (in my case) an increased understanding of the game, but put any Sabrespacer in charge of the Sabres.... do you really think the team would be any better? I don't know.... can we believe that poster's rosy picture? Yeah, I would have drafted Sergachev instead of Nylander. Edited November 21, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 I'm really starting to think that Housley and JBot are on the same page and playing a long game. Vegas had access to the expansion draft and didn't have any deadwood to weather, plus they're trying to establish a presence in a new city. They put together the best team they could for RIGHT NOW and so far, so good. Good for them. It's easy to say we should be doing at least as good as them, especially after the Sabres tanked. But the Sabres are actually coming out of a deeper hole, and rather than instantly trying to put up a good show with duct tape and bailing wire, they decided to go for a deep build. That means holding talent back at the AHL level, developing young stars who missed a vital part of their development under DDB, and basically just using this year as an extended development camp. So Eichel is passing too much, Reinhart is checking too much and too many of the younger NHL roster players aren't playing the same roles they were playing previously. The optics are bad..... right now. But eventually there will be a merging of the prospects into the NHL roster, properly developed prospects, and remediated high draft picks that were thrust into the NHL too quickly. When it happens we will see the bump up we were expecting for this year. And instead of a flash in the pan it will be a sustained improvement, each season building on the last, until the Sabres finally reach the promised land. In the meantime, I'm hoping but not expecting them to make the playoffs this year. I expect it next year, and it will be the start of a continuous improvement. We'll look back at this and wonder how we could have called for the heads of JBot and Housley. There's no easy, quick fix for this team. There will be suffering. (Seems like I've heard that before.) But this season is the end of one era and the beginning of another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) Who is calling for Jbot and Wowie’s heads? Everyone knows what Jbot is about. His history is about development, mostly college kids like Rust, Sheary and Dumolin etc.. He has only begun that process here. Looking at Rochester’s improvement year over year is a shining example that he (and Sexton) have a clue. The biggest issue is that despite a 10 player turnover, the team in Buffalo has taken another step backwards. The D group which was a shambles last season is actually worse this year. Part of that issue is injuries, but also stems from a system ill suited to the current personnel. The only D in Buffalo really suited for Wowie’s system are Risto (injured), Scandella and Antipin, (who is new to English, smaller ice and NA hockey). Bogo is out, Baloo only does offense, Gorges has no speed, and McCabe and Falk have no offense. Jbot has a great deal of work to do to fix and inept bottom 6 and 4/7 of the D group. Once Jbot finds some contributing depth forwards he’ll be better able to slot players like Reinhart correctly. Edited November 21, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Best hope, IMHO, is that each of the following is a reasonable possibility to occur between now and the midway point of next season: - Eichel emerges as a top-5 player - Risto steps up his play and becomes a strong #1 defenseman - JBott finds a good goalie, a good veteran leader who can play and set a professional tone, and another good defenseman this summer - Howie coaches up guys like Antipin, B-Loo and McCabe - Someone like ERod or Bailey or Fasching or Nylander becomes a good top-6 forward Not all of those things are going to happen, but I think most of them will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted November 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Best hope, IMHO, is that each of the following is a reasonable possibility to occur between now and the midway point of next season: - Eichel emerges as a top-5 player - Risto steps up his play and becomes a strong #1 defenseman - JBott finds a good goalie, a good veteran leader who can play and set a professional tone, and another good defenseman this summer - Howie coaches up guys like Antipin, B-Loo and McCabe - Someone like ERod or Bailey or Fasching or Nylander becomes a good top-6 forward Not all of those things are going to happen, but I think most of them will. To be fair though what I mean is, those are the same things we've been relying on for years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 To be fair though what I mean is, those are the same things we've been relying on for years But it'll be different this year, baby! I promise! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_Dudley Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 A competent and strong farm system that grows and wins together. That is Jbot's stated vision when he was hired and what he successfully did while with the Penguins. There is really no reason to expect any other quick fix with that stated model and the current talent level he has to deal with. Now can he he get lucky and pull off some magic trades that accelerate it. IMHO maybe but the best acceleration i could see happening with that is a year down to 2 from the 3 years we are talking about this model of growing your own on the farm reasonably takes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 There has to be a balance between playing the long game, and making sure to be competitive now. I'm not ok with Eichel languishing in a losing environment for another 3 years, and being 25 by the time we are competing for the playoffs. None of the prospects we have in the pipeline mean jack squat if Jack isn't the truly elite player his 10 million per year will demand. Any course of action should have a primary focus of maximizing Jack Eichel. He was, and still is our potential path to success. If we burn him out through losing, squander his prime through ineptitude, or he just doesn't have it within him to be an elite player, we are in trouble. Im all for building a winning culture in Rochester, but if that is to be the base of our success, where does that leave Eichel? Is that plan even compatible with the current young core on the roster? I fear the build-from-Rochester blueprint may be 3 years too late with regards to Jack Eichel. Never mind Ryan O'Reilly and his long term feasibility here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 There has to be a balance between playing the long game, and making sure to be competitive now. I'm not ok with Eichel languishing in a losing environment for another 3 years, and being 25 by the time we are competing for the playoffs. None of the prospects we have in the pipeline mean jack squat if Jack isn't the truly elite player his 10 million per year will demand. Any course of action should have a primary focus of maximizing Jack Eichel. He was, and still is our potential path to success. If we burn him out through losing, squander his prime through ineptitude, or he just doesn't have it within him to be an elite player, we are in trouble. Im all for building a winning culture in Rochester, but if that is to be the base of our success, where does that leave Eichel? Is that plan even compatible with the current young core on the roster? I fear the build-from-Rochester blueprint may be 3 years too late with regards to Jack Eichel. Never mind Ryan O'Reilly and his long term feasibility here. The problem is that drafting Eichel happened too soon in the process. Ideally you suck and build your farm up and then you land a guy like Jack. The problem for us is that there was nothing in place for him to drop in to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 The problem is that drafting Eichel happened too soon in the process. Ideally you suck and build your farm up and then you land a guy like Jack. The problem for us is that there was nothing in place for him to drop in to. Exactly. It truly is a conundrum. There's a greater jumble of timelines within our roster and farm system than the X-Men movie universe. All this talk of a farm system that grows together that Botterill will try to implement: how? What about the current core pieces? This build from the farm scenario sounds like the Genesis project in Wrath of Khan. Should we be trading Eichel and ROR? This all seems exceptionally tricky and complicated for Botterill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Exactly. It truly is a conundrum. There's a greater jumble of timelines within our roster and farm system than the X-Men movie universe. All this talk of a farm system that grows together that Botterill will try to implement: how? What about the current core pieces? This build from the farm scenario sounds like the Genesis project in Wrath of Khan. Should we be trading Eichel and ROR? This all seems exceptionally tricky and complicated for Botterill. I feel like we're stuck possibly accepting something not desirable: that we'll have no choice but to waste some of Jack's time here waiting for the rest of the team to fill in around him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 The problem is that drafting Eichel happened too soon in the process. Ideally you suck and build your farm up and then you land a guy like Jack. The problem for us is that there was nothing in place for him to drop in to. Don't you think Murray's idea was for Eichel to land into Babcock-Risto-ROR-Kane-Lehner-Reinhart? The cupboard wasn't bare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Don't you think Murray's idea was for Eichel to land into Babcock-Risto-ROR-Kane-Lehner-Reinhart? The cupboard wasn't bare. Is that really enough? And on a team filled the rest of the way with plugs? It looks to me like this was not a good plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 And in 10 years we may find that JBot was awful, but from this point in time, it's hard to know. Being a sports owner is a uniquely hard job. It's not something you can study in college, it's not something that being a player will adequately train you for. And given that job, think about how hard it is to hire top staff positions like GM. Each candidate will lay out a plan for success, but there are so many variables it's hard to know what the best plan is. Losing/winning a lottery, having a key player go down with an injury, finding an unexpected gem of a player, all can affect the success of a GM's plan. If Buffalo had won the McJesus lottery, things may be very different. Or maybe not. It's hard for a GM to project ahead too far, and even harder for an owner to look at those projections and decide which rosy picture to believe. Add to that the expectations created by video games and fantasy sports: In video games, past performance *does* project future success, within the bounds of the game model. You have a better idea what a player is actually worth, and given an understanding of the game, have a better idea of whether to go out on a limb or not. And it's easier on a video game to tear it all down and start again. In fantasy sports, the only chemistry you have to worry about is the chemistry of the player that's on your fantasy team and the way he interacts with his linemates. Then add in forums like this where self-described experts boldly state simple solutions to a team's problems. It makes for good conversation and (in my case) an increased understanding of the game, but put any Sabrespacer in charge of the Sabres.... do you really think the team would be any better? I don't know.... can we believe that poster's rosy picture? I don't have a preset answer to this question, but do you think the owner of the L.A. Kings was/is in charge of that multiple-Cup-winning franchise in the same way Terry is in charge of the Sabres? Who else? Mario in Pittsburgh is a different situation. He has every right to lead the way. Chicago? We have different ideas of what an owner does, or should do, I think. I do think Taro would be a better owner. As would LTS. And chz. And... you. I turn the old adage around and modify it... you bought it, you love it... don't break it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 I feel like we're stuck possibly accepting something not desirable: that we'll have no choice but to waste some of Jack's time here waiting for the rest of the team to fill in around him. Likely. It sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) Best hope, IMHO, is that each of the following is a reasonable possibility to occur between now and the midway point of next season: - Eichel emerges as a top-5 player - Risto steps up his play and becomes a strong #1 defenseman - JBott finds a good goalie, a good veteran leader who can play and set a professional tone, and another good defenseman this summer - Howie coaches up guys like Antipin, B-Loo and McCabe - Someone like ERod or Bailey or Fasching or Nylander becomes a good top-6 forward Not all of those things are going to happen, but I think most of them will. I'm thinking just one of those things happen, and I'm not sure which one. Edited November 21, 2017 by We've Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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