That Aud Smell Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 Well, nobody else has ever really tanked that I can think of. Most rebuilds go the Browns route, which is what we're doing. Ish. I think the Bills are trying to middle it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 "Suck for Luck" was definitely a thing. Not sure it worked. Didn't they do the same thing eons ago to get Manning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 Ish. I think the Bills are trying to middle it more. Sadly, I agree. As I said in an earlier post the Bills are applying their foot to the brake and accelerator. There is nothing wrong with rebuilding. Just do it. Trade older players for picks and aim to have a core all show up ready to rock at the same time. But Sammy is a young elite talent. You don't trade those players in a rebuild unless you think they will win games. Change the QB. I recommended signing Nick Foles for 6 million to get us through the year until the star QB we drafted...oh wait, we put all our chips on 2018 even though John Gruden, Andy Reid, and Sean Payton would have pulled the trigger on the QB at ten. Well, Beane. Better start studying the QB position because I have zero faith in your buddy Sean at doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 He is, they just failed the rest of the rebuild by giving him no running game and a garbage offensive line. The Colts are basically the Oilers of the NFL Well, nobody else has ever really tanked that I can think of. Most rebuilds go the Browns route, which is what we're doing. The Browns are not rebuilding. Granted, they aren't tanking either. They came back into the league in '99. Since then they've had 2 seasons with more than 7 wins and 9 seasons with less than 5 wins. They are just incompetent. Really, the comparison between what Cleveland is doing and what Buffalo is doing comes down to, Buffalo is an average of about 3 wins per season more competent than Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 The Browns are not rebuilding. Granted, they aren't tanking either. They came back into the league in '99. Since then they've had 2 seasons with more than 7 wins and 9 seasons with less than 5 wins. They are just incompetent. Really, the comparison between what Cleveland is doing and what Buffalo is doing comes down to, Buffalo is an average of about 3 wins per season more competent than Cleveland. The Browns have been incompetent but they are certainly rebuilding. They have had way more picks than the Bills and should be positioned to grab a better QB prospect than Buffalo in 2018. Sad. A team that had Kyle Shanahan give the team his QB board which was Derek Carr and Jimmy G only to have the owner draft Johnny Drunkball because a homeless guy asked him to is now about to pull ahead of Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 Also seems a bit like the exception that proves the rule. Losing your franchise QB to season ending neck surgery isn't exactly a planned tank. However, they consciously chose not to add a QB after it happened. Im with eleven also in contending they are still not proof that tanking works. The Browns have been incompetent but they are certainly rebuilding. They have had way more picks than the Bills and should be positioned to grab a better QB prospect than Buffalo in 2018. Sad. A team that had Kyle Shanahan give the team his QB board which was Derek Carr and Jimmy G only to have the owner draft Johnny Drunkball because a homeless guy asked him to is now about to pull ahead of Buffalo. You put a lot of stock in anecdotal stories. The NFL is full of stories of how KC picked Steve Fuller over Joe Montana. As for Carr and Jimmy G, it's also full of stories about guys like Rob Johnson. Grades still incomplete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 I just had a laughing bit that was harder to stop than it probably should have been. What spurred it on is the notion that as awful as our team has been for almost 20 years now, there are actually Bills fans who believe that the reason we aren't good is that we haven't been bad enough. Good Lord. Where's a burning table for me to jump though head first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JujuFish Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 I just had a laughing bit that was harder to stop than it probably should have been. What spurred it on is the notion that as awful as our team has been for almost 20 years now, there are actually Bills fans who believe that the reason we aren't good is that we haven't been bad enough. Good Lord. Where's a burning table for me to jump though head first. And if you want to feel old, there will be people voting in the midterm elections next year that weren't even born the last time the Bills made the playoffs. Barring a miracle this season, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Losing your franchise QB to season ending neck surgery isn't exactly a planned tank. However, they consciously chose not to add a QB after it happened. Im with eleven also in contending they are still not proof that tanking works. You put a lot of stock in anecdotal stories. The NFL is full of stories of how KC picked Steve Fuller over Joe Montana. As for Carr and Jimmy G, it's also full of stories about guys like Rob Johnson. Grades still incomplete Since I happened to look it up the other day, Dan Marino was the 6th of the 6 QBs taken in the first round of 1983. Elway, Blackledge, Jim Kelly, Easom, Ken Something, and Marino. Drafting is not a science, especially for QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 I just had a laughing bit that was harder to stop than it probably should have been. What spurred it on is the notion that as awful as our team has been for almost 20 years now, there are actually Bills fans who believe that the reason we aren't good is that we haven't been bad enough. Good Lord. Where's a burning table for me to jump though head first. We luv us some lose on purpose. We can win at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubkev Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 We luv us some lose on purpose. We can win at that. Doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Didn't they do the same thing eons ago to get Manning? Oooh, good point. They sure did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 I agree regarding Watkins. I'm just not convinced about Darby, though. You may not be convinced but my point is the Bills and the Eagles both are/were. Otherwise they wouldn't have required that Philly add a 3rd round pick and Philly wouldn't have agree to add it. Even if Matthews ends up being more productive than Darby, it doesn't change the facts that the Bills were ok with downgrading for the season in exchange for hopefully upgrading next season with the extra draft pick. And it certainly doesn't jive with their whole win now, push for the playoffs, or whatever storyline the PR machine is pushing out. I really don't know what exact narrative they are pushing because once they closed down the official Bills message board a little while back I stopped going to their website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 You may not be convinced but my point is the Bills and the Eagles both are/were. Otherwise they wouldn't have required that Philly add a 3rd round pick and Philly wouldn't have agree to add it. Even if Matthews ends up being more productive than Darby, it doesn't change the facts that the Bills were ok with downgrading for the season in exchange for hopefully upgrading next season with the extra draft pick. And it certainly doesn't jive with their whole win now, push for the playoffs, or whatever storyline the PR machine is pushing out. I really don't know what exact narrative they are pushing because once they closed down the official Bills message board a little while back I stopped going to their website. That's not necessarily true. We didn't trade Darby for Gaines and a pick. They were two separate trades with two separate teams and their value has to be judged independently. The question is, if we traded Watkins to LA for Darby, would they have still had to throw in a 2nd? I think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) That's not necessarily true. We didn't trade Darby for Gaines and a pick. They were two separate trades with two separate teams and their value has to be judged independently. The question is, if we traded Watkins to LA for Darby, would they have still had to throw in a 2nd? I think so. How is that not true? I never said we traded Darby for Gaines and a pick either. We traded Darby for Matthews and a 3rd. That objectively means that both the Bills and the Eagles agreed that Darby was worth more than Matthews and in order to even the value out Philly had to add a 3rd round pick that won't be able to play for Buffalo until 2018 at the earliest. The Bills are knowingly taking a hit to their team for the 2017 season in exchange for the hope that they get that value back in 2018 and beyond. I don't your question at all either because it doesn't make sense. How would we trade Watkins to LA for Darby? LA doesn't have Darby and never did. We had Darby and traded him to Philly. I think you may have the 2 trades confused. Buffalo traded Darby to Philly for Matthews and a 3rd. Buffalo traded Watkins and a 6th to LA for Gaines and a 2nd. Edited August 16, 2017 by Drunkard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 How is that not true? I never said we traded Darby for Gaines and a pick either. We traded Darby for Matthews and a 3rd. That objectively means that both the Bills and the Eagles agreed that Darby was worth more than Matthews and in order to even the value out Philly had to add a 3rd round pick that won't be able to play for Buffalo until 2018 at the earliest. The Bills are knowingly taking a hit to their team for the 2017 season in exchange for the hope that they get that value back in 2018 and beyond. I don't your question at all either because it doesn't make sense. How would we trade Watkins to LA for Darby? LA doesn't have Darby and never did. We had Darby and traded him to Philly. I think you may have the 2 trades confused. Buffalo traded Darby to Philly for Matthews and a 3rd. Buffalo traded Watkins and a 6th to LA for Gaines and a 2nd. It's a thought experiment. Say Darby was on LA and we traded Watkins/6th to them. I think it would take Darby/2nd coming back to be fair. Meaning, I think we are about the same at corner after these trades as before. No one is questioning that we downgraded at WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 It's a thought experiment. Say Darby was on LA and we traded Watkins/6th to them. I think it would take Darby/2nd coming back to be fair. Meaning, I think we are about the same at corner after these trades as before. No one is questioning that we downgraded at WR. Whatever mental gymnastics you have to do to convince yourself it wasn't a downgrade is fine. The Bills considered it a downgrade though, otherwise they wouldn't have required the pick. If Philly didn't believe Darby was an upgrade they wouldn't have agreed to give the extra pick. The trade could turn out to be different but that's how it stands at the time of the trade itself. Hell, Darby could lose his foot in a boating accident making us win the trade in a landslide or Matthews could turn into Jerry Rice in his prime. That still doesn't change the fact that at the time of the trade both the Eagles and Bills agreed that Darby was better and the Bills were willing to downgrade this season in exchange for an additional draft pick to help them in the future. Throw in the added downgrade in the Watkins trade and the Bills seems to be attempting some sort of stealth mini tank or whatever nonsense. Then they get butt hurt when people called them on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Whatever mental gymnastics you have to do to convince yourself it wasn't a downgrade is fine. The Bills considered it a downgrade though, otherwise they wouldn't have required the pick. If Philly didn't believe Darby was an upgrade they wouldn't have agreed to give the extra pick. The trade could turn out to be different but that's how it stands at the time of the trade itself. Hell, Darby could lose his foot in a boating accident making us win the trade in a landslide or Matthews could turn into Jerry Rice in his prime. That still doesn't change the fact that at the time of the trade both the Eagles and Bills agreed that Darby was better and the Bills were willing to downgrade this season in exchange for an additional draft pick to help them in the future. Throw in the added downgrade in the Watkins trade and the Bills seems to be attempting some sort of stealth mini tank or whatever nonsense. Then they get butt hurt when people called them on it. What the Bills got back for Darby says absolutely nothing on how they compare him to Gaines. All it tells us is how they compare him to Mathews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabresparaavida Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 How is that not true? I never said we traded Darby for Gaines and a pick either. We traded Darby for Matthews and a 3rd. That objectively means that both the Bills and the Eagles agreed that Darby was worth more than Matthews and in order to even the value out Philly had to add a 3rd round pick that won't be able to play for Buffalo until 2018 at the earliest. The Bills are knowingly taking a hit to their team for the 2017 season in exchange for the hope that they get that value back in 2018 and beyond. I don't your question at all either because it doesn't make sense. How would we trade Watkins to LA for Darby? LA doesn't have Darby and never did. We had Darby and traded him to Philly. I think you may have the 2 trades confused. Buffalo traded Darby to Philly for Matthews and a 3rd. Buffalo traded Watkins and a 6th to LA for Gaines and a 2nd. This isn't necksarilly true. If the Eagles had no idea the Watkins trade was happening, the Bills could have been saying that if we do this trade, we will be really strapped at CB, so you have to throw in something on the side. Also, the Eagles could have been very desperate for a corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 What the Bills got back for Darby says absolutely nothing on how they compare him to Gaines. All it tells us is how they compare him to Mathews. I'm not the one doing mental gymnastics to justify the trade in my own head. I'm also not comparing Watkins to Matthews or Darby to Gaines. I'm looking at the actual trades in both cases and in both cases it was the Bills who gave up the better player and all 3 teams agree (Bills, Eagles, and Rams) because the Eagles and Rams both agreed to use draft picks as sweeteners to even out the trade of players. The Bills agree to take lesser players this season in exchange for picks. It may work out for the best, but that's still what they did. #BluePrint This isn't necksarilly true. If the Eagles had no idea the Watkins trade was happening, the Bills could have been saying that if we do this trade, we will be really strapped at CB, so you have to throw in something on the side. Also, the Eagles could have been very desperate for a corner. I'm not speculating about the reasons or other extenuating circumstances. I'm looking at the trades and the trades only. Bills downgraded both times and were compensated for future picks. It may work out in Buffalo's favor in the end but it shows they are willing to be worse in 2017 since the picks they added won't come until next season. If they had made these drafts at the 2017 draft in exchange for picks that could play this season it could be argued as a wash, but they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 I'm not the one doing mental gymnastics to justify the trade in my own head. I'm also not comparing Watkins to Matthews or Darby to Gaines. I'm looking at the actual trades in both cases and in both cases it was the Bills who gave up the better player and all 3 teams agree (Bills, Eagles, and Rams) because the Eagles and Rams both agreed to use draft picks as sweeteners to even out the trade of players. The Bills agree to take lesser players this season in exchange for picks. It may work out for the best, but that's still what they did. #BluePrint I'm not doing any gymnastics. It's actually pretty simple. You just don't want to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) I'm not doing any gymnastics. It's actually pretty simple. You just don't want to get it. Sure thing, man. The Rams and Eagles were both willing to give up draft picks in these one for one player swaps because they thought they were each getting the lesser player. It's so nice of them to do that to help Buffalo. How altruistic of them both. Edited August 16, 2017 by Drunkard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Darby is a 3rd rd pick more valuable than Matthews. Watkins is a 2nd rd pick more valuable than Gaines. Watkins is some unknown more valuable than Darby. Darby could have equal value to Gaines in this string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Sure thing, man. The Rams and Eagles were both willing to give up draft picks in these one for one player swaps because they thought they were each getting the lesser player. It's so nice of them to do that to help Buffalo. How altruistic of them both. Let me brake it down to it's essence. Buffalo traded with two teams. When all is said and done, I think we may have only downgraded one position (WR). Darby is a 3rd rd pick more valuable than Matthews. Watkins is a 2nd rd pick more valuable than Gaines. Watkins is some unknown more valuable than Darby. Darby could have equal value to Gaines in this string. Oh, thank God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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