Where in development are Murray's 2016 draft picks

[North Buffalo]

I was thinking about the 2017 draft and the need for defensemen in the pipeline and it begged the question how are the Sabre defensemen and later round draft pics from 2016 doing.  Yeh, we stay in touch with Nylander, Asplund and Pu... and even Fitzgerald.  But what about Murray, Nyberg, Budick, Hagel, Osmanski and Glotov.  

 

Well it turns out that Murray a big winger is joining Penn State midseason, and Nyberg a defenseman from Sweden and University of WI committment unable to pass English competence is joining UCONN midseason.  

 

As well Budik, a defensement from the Czeck Republic played in the WJC.

 

Some of this has already been reported and I just didn't catch it being an outta towner: 

https://buffalonews.com/2017/01/02/prospect-report-nylander-shines-world-juniors/

 

Nice to get updated every once in a while.

[North Buffalo]

Nice little site I just found called college hockey inc: http://collegehockeyinc.com/articles/notes-second-half-starts-now

[inkman]

It all sounds encouraging but stats indicate we'll only ever get to see a handful of those guys.

[North Buffalo]

It all sounds encouraging but stats indicate we'll only ever get to see a handful of those guys.

Oh agreed, but forget sometimes that there are other guys out there other than the Rochester kids.   Nice to see the college boys stepping up... Florentino intrigues me.   Looks like he can score and pass... Does he have some nasty?

 

Also, Murray has some nice size and can skate... no idea about his hands... but interesting to see if he develops and I just like Giorgio Estephan,

kid seems to be able to rack up points... 19 goals and 21 assists 40 points in 34 games for Medicine Hat.

[North Buffalo]

I know this doesn't belong in this thread, but PU has dropped over 50 points already 25 goals and 31 assists (56 points) in 35 games.  1.6 points per game in the OHL... not bad...

Edited January 8, 2017 by North Buffalo

[Norcal]

Check out Kris Baker (@SabresProspects): https://twitter.com/SabresProspects?s=09Not sure if you follow this guy on Twitter but he keeps a pretty close watch on the Sabres pipeline.

[North Buffalo]

Check out Kris Baker (@SabresProspects): https://twitter.com/SabresProspects?s=09Not sure if you follow this guy on Twitter but he keeps a pretty close watch on the Sabres pipeline.

Yes I do, but haven't been on twitter lately.  Thanks for the reminder.

[Norcal]

Brandon Hagel has increased his scoring for Red Deer in the WHL. Not sure the level of competition but at 18 still pretty good production IMO http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=161843

[MattPie]

I know this doesn't belong in this thread, but PU has dropped over 50 points already 25 goals and 31 assists (56 points) in 35 games.  1.6 points per game in the OHL... not bad...

 

I don't know how those numbers fare compared to other OHL guys that went on to the NHL, but it seems like he may have a shot at the NHL some day. If it works out, that's a nice find. He's a right-shot Center, which seems to me he may have an easier time moving to RW where the Sabres are thin.

[Norcal]

I don't know how those numbers fare compared to other OHL guys that went on to the NHL, but it seems like he may have a shot at the NHL some day. If it works out, that's a nice find. He's a right-shot Center, which seems to me he may have an easier time moving to RW where the Sabres are thin.

Cue Rakish, his charts will provide the answers you seek, and then sum

[Crusader1969]

ESPN came out with their top 50 prospect rankings today. Not surprisingly, Nylander is #4.

Cliff Pu was ranked 20th.

 

"He has had a monster season and has been the top rising prospect in my eyes. He has been one of the OHL's best players and a key part to London's continuing to be a dominant force in that league. It's hard to find a flaw in Pu's game. He's big, fast and skilled, and he can make plays at both ends of the rink. Pu doesn't have elite skill, but there's plenty of talent there to project as a potential top-six center in the NHL. A part of me wants to see Pu with the Sabres sooner than later just to see how Rick Jeanneret calls his goals. Also, he likes stuffed animals a lot."

 

So, gmtm drafts Guhle in 2nd, Borgen in 4th, Pu in 3rd, Asplund in 2nd and somehow people think he needs to be fired??

[GASabresIUFAN]

 

So, gmtm drafts Guhle in 2nd, Borgen in 4th, Pu in 3rd, Asplund in 2nd and somehow people think he needs to be fired??

 

If drafting was the only standard on which GM's were rated, then you'd be on target.  However, FA signings, trades, prospect development and mostly W/L are how they are judged and so far the results on the ice don't help GMTM's case.

[nfreeman]

ESPN came out with their top 50 prospect rankings today. Not surprisingly, Nylander is #4.

Cliff Pu was ranked 20th.

 

"He has had a monster season and has been the top rising prospect in my eyes. He has been one of the OHL's best players and a key part to London's continuing to be a dominant force in that league. It's hard to find a flaw in Pu's game. He's big, fast and skilled, and he can make plays at both ends of the rink. Pu doesn't have elite skill, but there's plenty of talent there to project as a potential top-six center in the NHL. A part of me wants to see Pu with the Sabres sooner than later just to see how Rick Jeanneret calls his goals. Also, he likes stuffed animals a lot."

 

So, gmtm drafts Guhle in 2nd, Borgen in 4th, Pu in 3rd, Asplund in 2nd and somehow people think he needs to be fired??

 

Well, you're counting chickens awfully prematurely here.  Plenty of prospects have looked great in juniors and done nada in the NHL.

 

GMTM's job is to ice a winning team.  To date he has undeniably failed to do so.

[Crusader1969]

Well, you're counting chickens awfully prematurely here.  Plenty of prospects have looked great in juniors and done nada in the NHL.

 

GMTM's job is to ice a winning team.  To date he has undeniably failed to do so.

TOTALLY wrong, his job is to build a team that will one day compete for a cup. He will do whatever is best to get to that point even if it means the current product suffers.

If drafting was the only standard on which GM's were rated, then you'd be on target.  However, FA signings, trades, prospect development and mostly W/L are how they are judged and so far the results on the ice don't help GMTM's case.

What trades? What FA signings? What prospects has he developed incorrectly?

[WildCard]

Dude missed on one trade, maybe 2, and apparently he sucks at Fa and dealing

 

Remember who won trades? Darcy

[Weave]

Dude missed on one trade, maybe 2, and apparently he sucks at Fa and dealing

 

Remember who won trades? Darcy

 

He ain't exactly did a better job of building a winning team than Darcy yet either.

 

ZFG.  :rolleyes:

 

Zero Grammar Given, too.  :P

[Thorny]

TOTALLY wrong, his job is to build a team that will one day compete for a cup. He will do whatever is best to get to that point even if it means the current product suffers.

 

What trades? What FA signings? What prospects has he developed incorrectly?

This isn't correct. You can't logically build a team that is certifiably given the attribute "Will one day compete for a cup". Too many variables. The future can't be predicted with certainty.

 

Murray's job is to ice a playoff competitive team. It can certainly be argued that the team doesn't need to be that way YET, but sooner or later the team has to be competitive. Murray has to field that team.

 

The argument can be framed as, "When should it be reasonably expected that the Sabres should be competitive?" There is A valid viewpoint out there that says we should be better than we are now, given that this is the 4th season Murray has been GM.

[Crusader1969]

Sure they could be better, they probably would be at least 5 to 7 points better if Eichel wasn't hurt and we wouldn't be having this conversation. They probably would be better if Guhle was in NHL but they wanted him to develop more. Maybe the would be better if both bailey and Baptiste were with Sabres all season but again they are better long term in ahl.

 

You don't think he realizes that he has a slow defence? He is doing what is best for the organization. When you are waiting for prospects to develop it can be frustrating. I get that.

[nfreeman]

Sure they could be better, they probably would be at least 5 to 7 points better if Eichel wasn't hurt and we wouldn't be having this conversation. They probably would be better if Guhle was in NHL but they wanted him to develop more. Maybe the would be better if both bailey and Baptiste were with Sabres all season but again they are better long term in ahl.

 

You don't think he realizes that he has a slow defence? He is doing what is best for the organization. When you are waiting for prospects to develop it can be frustrating. I get that.

 

Do you think they will make the playoffs next season?  If not, and if they  end up with fewer than 90 pts again,

will you still be OK with GMTM?

[GASabresIUFAN]

TOTALLY wrong, his job is to build a team that will one day compete for a cup. He will do whatever is best to get to that point even if it means the current product suffers.

 

What trades? What FA signings? What prospects has he developed incorrectly?

What trades? What signings? How about the failed or failing trades for Fasching, Kane, Bogo, Lehner, Gorges and Kulikov.  How about the mediocre signings of Moulson, McCormick and Franson?  This team is mired at the bottom of the standings because these trades and signings haven't worked as hoped.  You have ROR, Gionta, Nilsson and Okposo on the positive side of the ledger, but that isn't enough to field a successful team.  Ultimately GMTM will be judged on the team's W/L record (as I said before).  As of right now, his attempt to accelerate by acquiring youngish vets is mostly a failure.  I'm not calling for him to be fired and I hope that the keys prospects like Nylander and Guhle ultimately help us build a winner here.  However, if we draft in the top 5 again, then I think we can all agree that the team has taken a step back.    

[Thorny]

Do you think they will make the playoffs next season?  If not, and if they  end up with fewer than 90 pts again,

will you still be OK with GMTM?

That's the interesting point. Do we have a general consuensus of when we need to be a playoff team? I remember posting something similar last year, and the general consensus from what I remember was that people were expecting playoffs this season. Or to at least be a bubble team.

 

Failing to make the playoffs this year would be one thing- it personally wasn't something I expected. But I was set on being competitive this year. Basically, a bubble team. I think a near bottom finish this year would be huge letdown. Let alone another poor season next year.

 

I wonder if there is any scenario where individuals here would find failing to be a bubble team, again next season, palatable.

[Huckleberry]

What trades? What signings? How about the failed or failing trades for Fasching, Kane, Bogo, Lehner, Gorges and Kulikov.  How about the mediocre signings of Moulson, McCormick and Franson?  This team is mired at the bottom of the standings because these trades and signings haven't worked as hoped.  You have ROR, Gionta, Nilsson and Okposo on the positive side of the ledger, but that isn't enough to field a successful team.  Ultimately GMTM will be judged on the team's W/L record (as I said before).  As of right now, his attempt to accelerate by acquiring youngish vets is mostly a failure.  I'm not calling for him to be fired and I hope that the keys prospects like Nylander and Guhle ultimately help us build a winner here.  However, if we draft in the top 5 again, then I think we can all agree that the team has taken a step back.    

 

• Lehner: he has shown he is a starting goalie in the nhl, that #1 pick was the price you pay.   He ranks 15th in goalies in the nhl, giving him the bust label is premature.
• Franson: I think he has been our 3rd best D this year.   Only worry is his lack of speed, but he seems to cover that up with positioning a lot better this year.   (2nd rounder at the deadline for sure)
• Fasching: a failed trade already  :blink:
• Kulikov: is bad luck with his injury, and that trade also got you Asplund  for just Pysyk + our 2nd rounder.   Don't think anyone here didn't like that trade at the draft.
• Kane: will turn into a top 4 LHD, just watch it.
• Gorges: is a good 6/7 D, he has been a warrior last 3 years for us and did what he was traded for.   We gave up a 3rd rounder for him ???  that is not a failed trade.
• Moulson: signing turned out bad, but his buyout is very reasonable, so reasonable other gms would love to trade possible  buy outs for his' .
• McCormick: is not a failed signing its bad luck and the guy will remain on the injury list until his contract is up.
• Bogo: Sometimes I wish we had Myers instead, but then I realize myers wasn't good at D either, failed the space in front of the goal a lot to.  And in the end it was Kane that was the target in this trade.  And unless you were a huge Myers fanboy, I don't think any of us didn't like the trade at the time.

[Robviously]

ESPN came out with their top 50 prospect rankings today. Not surprisingly, Nylander is #4.

Cliff Pu was ranked 20th.

 

"He has had a monster season and has been the top rising prospect in my eyes. He has been one of the OHL's best players and a key part to London's continuing to be a dominant force in that league. It's hard to find a flaw in Pu's game. He's big, fast and skilled, and he can make plays at both ends of the rink. Pu doesn't have elite skill, but there's plenty of talent there to project as a potential top-six center in the NHL. A part of me wants to see Pu with the Sabres sooner than later just to see how Rick Jeanneret calls his goals. Also, he likes stuffed animals a lot."

 

So, gmtm drafts Guhle in 2nd, Borgen in 4th, Pu in 3rd, Asplund in 2nd and somehow people think he needs to be fired??

There are 30 NHL teams. So the average team would have 1.67 Top 50 prospects. And the Sabres then have 0.33 more Top 50 prospects than average. Yippee?

 

Two seasons after drafting Jack Eichel, the Sabres have moved from 30th to 28th place. They could have done that *just* by drafting Jack Eichel. So Murray has done basically nothing to turn them around.

 

Asplund, Pu, Borgen, Guhle, Nylander, etc. are all prospects so it's still too soon to celebrate them. Nylander might be a star but he still hasn't figured out the AHL so he has a ways to go. And the rest are all roughly on par with Bailey, Baptiste, and Fasching, so they could be anything from AHL players to depth players to key contributors. We're years away from knowing.

 

In the meantime, three more years of Bogo's huge contract and plenty more dead weight on this roster.

[Scottysabres]

Remember the AHL Marlies with Toronto's developing talent last year? Yea, a few of those guys are up with big club now and enjoying success with Matthews. A winning culture in the AHL, if even only experienced for a season by some, is still a sure fire confidence builder.

 

Buffalo's AHL pipeline: they are sure to loose Baptiste next season as he joins the big club. Fasching and Bailey may need another season in Rochester, but there looks to be a good handful of draft pick coming to join Rochester next season, including a few defensemen.

 

Question: So, what's Murray's plan to achieve a winning culture in Rochester to help maximize these prospects success ratio?

 

Answer: I personally don't see a plan.

 

These next 18 months with this organization are pivotal. I am feeling uneasy with Murray at the helm.

[nfreeman]

What trades? What signings? How about the failed or failing trades for Fasching, Kane, Bogo, Lehner, Gorges and Kulikov.  How about the mediocre signings of Moulson, McCormick and Franson?  This team is mired at the bottom of the standings because these trades and signings haven't worked as hoped.  You have ROR, Gionta, Nilsson and Okposo on the positive side of the ledger, but that isn't enough to field a successful team.  Ultimately GMTM will be judged on the team's W/L record (as I said before).  As of right now, his attempt to accelerate by acquiring youngish vets is mostly a failure.  I'm not calling for him to be fired and I hope that the keys prospects like Nylander and Guhle ultimately help us build a winner here.  However, if we draft in the top 5 again, then I think we can all agree that the team has taken a step back.    

 

I don't really agree with the "failed/failing" characterization of most of these moves -- except for Moulson, which has been an utter debacle -- but I completely agree with the ultimate point:  GMTM is accountable for the results. 

 

The results have been poor.

 

That's the interesting point. Do we have a general consuensus of when we need to be a playoff team? I remember posting something similar last year, and the general consensus from what I remember was that people were expecting playoffs this season. Or to at least be a bubble team.

 

Failing to make the playoffs this year would be one thing- it personally wasn't something I expected. But I was set on being competitive this year. Basically, a bubble team. I think a near bottom finish this year would be huge letdown. Let alone another poor season next year.

 

I wonder if there is any scenario where individuals here would find failing to be a bubble team, again next season, palatable.

 

Good post.  I completely agree that it isn't the failure to make the playoffs that's such a letdown as much as it is the failure to be competitive.

 

There are 30 NHL teams. So the average team would have 1.67 Top 50 prospects. And the Sabres then have 0.33 more Top 50 prospects than average. Yippee?

 

Two seasons after drafting Jack Eichel, the Sabres have moved from 30th to 28th place. They could have done that *just* by drafting Jack Eichel. So Murray has done basically nothing to turn them around.

 

Asplund, Pu, Borgen, Guhle, Nylander, etc. are all prospects so it's still too soon to celebrate them. Nylander might be a star but he still hasn't figured out the AHL so he has a ways to go. And the rest are all roughly on par with Bailey, Baptiste, and Fasching, so they could be anything from AHL players to depth players to key contributors. We're years away from knowing.

 

In the meantime, three more years of Bogo's huge contract and plenty more dead weight on this roster.

 

I agree with much of this too.