(OT) Who was 'Pappy' (the fellow combat infantryman in my father's WWII memoir)?

[PASabreFan]

In the Awesome thread, Ghost mentioned re-reading my dad's World War II memoir over Memorial Day. Others chimed in with some kind words. Thanks again. "Pappy" is the name my dad gave to his best friend during the war. My dad called him a hero for taking him under his wing and mentoring him from the start, protecting him.

 

The mentions reminded me that after the book was printed, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out Pappy's real name. I wanted to get a copy of the book to any of his descendants, maybe his kids. I got nowhere. It was a long shot.

 

The only clues I have are that my dad remembered that Pappy was in his late 20s — hence the "old man" nickname — and hailed from "out west." My dad determined through his research, using the official history of the Seventh Regiment (Third Division), that Pappy died on March 15, 1945.

 

The regimental history lists those killed in action by date. Six members of his company (K) died that day. This is where deciphering history gets interesting. Only one of the men came from what I would consider "out west." Fred A. Scott of Port Angeles, Washington. Others came from Illinois, Michigan, Brooklyn, North Carolina and Kentucky. My dad had a great memory, but maybe "midwest" turned into "out west" in his memory. I was able to rule out the man from Illinois. He had an unusual name, and I found out he was even younger than my dad. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=106881021

 

I am foggy on the details, but in my original quest more than 10 years ago, I thought the Michigan man was a hot lead. I wrote a letter to a family member; the connection was shot down, but I don't remember why. So everything points to Fred Scott — except if it's the same Fred Scott from the 1940 census in Port Angeles, he was only two years older than my dad. Again — memory can be faulty. To a kid right out of high school entering combat in World War II, maybe someone just a couple of years older, with over a year's combat under his belt, would have seemed much older. Like my dad said, by the time he turned 21 near the end of the war, he felt like he was 50.

 

I didn't know anything about a Freedom of Information Act request to get a soldier's Individual Deceased Personnel File until today. So I filed one for Fred Scott. I hope there are enough details in the file to confirm that he was Pappy. I did feel a little strange making the request. Invasion of privacy? Would the descendants, if I can ever find any, be bothered that I "snooped around"? But I concluded that since the information is available to the public, and the man has been dead for over 70 years, and I'm trying to do something good here, I shouldn't feel bad.

 

It's going to be awhile, I'm sure, before anything comes back. I'll update. Meanwhile, if anyone's done research like this and can offer additional advice, please feel free. I do have Fred's serial number.

 

I didn't want to clog up the Awesome thread with this and thought it might be an interesting summer diversion/unsolved mystery. It could certainly branch out to similar stories some of you might have, genealogy success stories, tips and tricks, and so on.

 

Thanks for reading all that. SDS pays me by the word. It comes out of chz's per diem, but she hasn't caught on yet.

[sabills]

Good luck, this sounds like a cool project. You can give Ancestry.com a try, too, if you haven't. A quick search I did of that name and location popped some stuff up on him, including a link to Find A Grave. I have a subscription to the site, so if you run into a paywall on there let me know, I'll send you any info you want.

[PASabreFan]

Good luck, this sounds like a cool project. You can give Ancestry.com a try, too, if you haven't. A quick search I did of that name and location popped some stuff up on him, including a link to Find A Grave. I have a subscription to the site, so if you run into a paywall on there let me know, I'll send you any info you want.

Thanks!

[K-9]

The very definition of a labor of love. Good luck on your quest, PA. You honor your dad, Pappy, and the countless other Pappies, known and unknown.

[PASabreFan]

The very definition of a labor of love. Good luck on your quest, PA. You honor your dad, Pappy, and the countless other Pappies, known and unknown.

Thanks. That's too kind. I just think it would be awesome to find out what kind of man your father was. Having said that, according to the Find a Grave site, he was born in 1921, making him probably 20 or 21 when he went to war. So maybe there were no kids. The Census report did show he had several much younger siblings, so they could still be around, in their late 70s or early 80s. Would be a nice late-life surprise to read about their brother. Beyond that, we're down to nieces and nephews. Still cool...

 

If that's even Pappy...

[bunomatic]

Cool. I'm interested to see where you get with this P.A. I often think of the countless people, heroes, and stories lost to time. If a persons story isn't documented in some way they do fade away almost like they never existed. If successful you can save ' Pappy ' from that.

[flomoe]

Cool. I'm interested to see where you get with this P.A. I often think of the countless people, heroes, and stories lost to time. If a persons story isn't documented in some way they do fade away almost like they never existed. If successful you can save ' Pappy ' from that.

Amen

[Weave]

Not sure if I've mentioned this before.  My grandfather was a B-17 pilot in WWII.  Stationed in Scotland.  He was an Army reservist that signed up for flight school when war broke out.  Flew two bombing missions in support of the D-Day invasion.  And then spent most of his air time over occupied Europe.  He died shortly after the war in a crash into the Gulf of Mexico in a bad weather training mission in a B-29 when they were still referred to as Widow Makers.  I never spoke much with my Grandmother about him because when I did, she cried while speaking of him.  

 

About 5-6 years ago I got curious enough to seek out internet resources.  Found through the military heritage database what unit he was in.  Found a forum dedicated to his air wing.  And, found out that there is a museum in Arizona dedicated to his unit.  Contacted the museum and got photos of him and his crew.  Turns out Gramps piloted a fairly famous bomber.  When James Cagney starred in a movie called The Yankee Doodle Dandy, the war department used it as a PR opportunity and had Cagney christen a B-17 that was given the name Yankee Doodle Dandy.  It was a pretty big media event at the time.  My grandfather ended up flying that plane over occupied Europe until it was too damaged to continue, 12 missions in that aircraft.  The website for the museum was a great resource. Had all of the missions for his crew listed.  Had all of the crew members listed.  I started a search to see if i could find any of his old crew members.  I never did get in touch with any of them.  One had an obituary online that was just a few weeks old.  I wish I had gotten curious sooner.

 

Here is where it got interesting.  I found a forum for the 9th Air Force and posted a thread asking if anyone had information regarding my grandfather.  A woman replied.  Her mother was a Red Cross volunteer that responded to the aftermath of my grandfather's crash in Sarasota!  She had in her possession the accident report of the crash of my grandfathers plane.  The short version of her story was, her father was the commanding officer at the base.  Her mother was a volunteer.  The accident occurred on a Friday late afternoon after most of the base personnel had left for the weekend.  The initial responders were few.  They met during the rescue and recovery efforts, started a relationship, and married.  Her mother kept the story and documents pertaining to the crash because it was instrumental in her finding the man she would spend the rest of her life with.  I requested, and she sent me, a copy of the crash report.  All 57 pages of it.  My grandmother's loss was someone else's gain I guess.

 

Grandfather took off into stormy skies on a Friday at 6:14pm on June 29th.  His last flight lasted 6 minutes.  His last words into the microphone were,"It's so dark I can't see a God damned thing up here". Contact was lost moments later. The plane came down on a shallow sand bar.  6 crew members were rescued. My grandfather was one of two casualties.  When my grandmother called home to tell her father what had happened she asked, "what should I do?".  He replied to her, "Come home, baby". 

 

My wife and I were married on June 29th.  Ceremony was at 6pm, long before I had any knowledge of the crash.

Edited May 30, 2015 by weave

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

This thread needs to be pinned forever.

[flomoe]

Not sure if I've mentioned this before. My grandfather was a B-17 pilot in WWII. Stationed in Scotland. He was an Army reservist that signed up for flight school when war broke out. Flew two bombing missions in support of the D-Day invasion. And then spent most of his air time over occupied Europe. He died shortly after the war in a crash into the Gulf of Mexico in a bad weather training mission in a B-29 when they were still referred to as Widow Makers. I never spoke much with my Grandmother about him because when I did, she cried while speaking of him.

 

About 5-6 years ago I got curious enough to seek out internet resources. Found through the military heritage database what unit he was in. Found a forum dedicated to his air wing. And, found out that there is a museum in Arizona dedicated to his unit. Contacted the museum and got photos of him and his crew. Turns out Gramps piloted a fairly famous bomber. When James Cagney starred in a movie called The Yankee Doodle Dandy, the war department used it as a PR opportunity and had Cagney christen a B-17 that was given the name Yankee Doodle Dandy. It was a pretty big media event at the time. My grandfather ended up flying that plane over occupied Europe until it was too damaged to continue, 12 missions in that aircraft. The website for the museum was a great resource. Had all of the missions for his crew listed. Had all of the crew members listed. I started a search to see if i could find any of his old crew members. I never did get in touch with any of them. One had an obituary online that was just a few weeks old. I wish I had gotten curious sooner.

 

Here is where it got interesting. I found a forum for the 9th Air Force and posted a thread asking if anyone had information regarding my grandfather. A woman replied. Her mother was a Red Cross volunteer that responded to the aftermath of my grandfather's crash in Sarasota! She had in her possession the accident report of the crash of my grandfathers plane. The short version of her story was, her father was the commanding officer at the base. Her mother was a volunteer. The accident occurred on a Friday late afternoon after most of the base personnel had left for the weekend. The initial responders were few. They met during the rescue and recovery efforts, started a relationship, and married. Her mother kept the story and documents pertaining to the crash because it was instrumental in her finding the man she would spend the rest of her life with. I requested, and she sent me, a copy of the crash report. All 57 pages of it. My grandmother's loss was someone else's gain I guess.

 

Grandfather took off into stormy skies on a Friday at 6:14pm on June 29th. His last flight lasted 6 minutes. His last words into the microphone were,"It's so dark I can't see a God damned thing up here". Contact was lost moments later. The plane came down on a shallow sand bar. 6 crew members were rescued. My grandfather was one of two casualties. When my grandmother called home to tell her father what had happened she asked, "what should I do?". He replied to her, "Come home, baby".

 

My wife and I were married on June 29th. Ceremony was at 6pm, long before I had any knowledge of the crash.

Sorry to read about your Grandfather Weave, that's a great story, but happy to hear about your nuptials(sp). It's a very unfortunate way to find out your family history. Thank you for sharing.

 

Btw, long time lurker here on this board and I appreciate the "whiskey" thread probably more than anyone.

I, unfortunately, have a father that I never really knew, that was a coward, that fled to Canada in the late 60's/early 70's, to avoid being Drafted. I don't have the pleasure of saying that I know a hero but coming to this message board allows me to thank the descendants of real American Heroes.

Thank you!

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Flomoe,

 

Your father grew up in a different era and would have been drafted into a different war.

 

President Nixon ended the draft just before my cousin's (in Elma, NY) draft number would have come up.  My uncle was upset and said *it would have made him a man*.  Well, the rest of us felt relieved.

 

My hope is that one day you will view what your father did differently, or at least look at the situation differently.  Many would view your father as a brave man.  Has not he US government granted clemency to the draft dodgers?

[PASabreFan]

flomoe, what NS said. Apples and oranges, truly. He probably wasn't no senator's son.

 

weave, thanks for sharing that. And thank you, weave's grandfather. I hope we can uncover more stories like this. It's really pretty amazing.

Edited May 30, 2015 by PASabreFan

[nfreeman]

Awesome story weave.

[Weave]

Thanks all.  It is a great story.  I'm fortunate to have been able to dig up the information I have.  It amazes me that two generations later there are still dedicated volunteers that are keeping all this information at fingertip reach.

 

[PASabreFan]

I almost asked which one is your grandfather.  :wallbash:

[Weave]

I almost asked which one is your grandfather.  :wallbash:

 

lol

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I am not an aviation expert by any means......so I must ask.....what and why are the Ball Turret, Waist, and Tail Gunner so close together?

OK...just looked it up.......

[Brawndo]

PA where is the memoir available? I'm a huge fan of military history and love reading first person accounts, particularly about WWII.

 

A few years ago I had a patient who I had to tell there was nothing unless we could do for his metastatic cancer. I knew he was a WWII Vet, but I did not know the details. I said I'm sorry about the news I had just delivered, he smiled at me and said

 

"Doc, I was on the first Higgins Boat that landed in Easy Green Sector Omaha Beach, June 6, 1944. Out of the first ten guys to leave the boat I was the only one who made it out of the surf. I survived that day and was able to marry the girl of my dreams, be the father to five great kids, grandfather to twelve and great grandfather to seven and counting. I got to live a full life, feel sorry for my brothers who didn't. Thanks for everything you have done for me"

 

I mumbled something along the lines of your welcome and left the room and headed to the nearest stairwell. Once there it took me fifteen minutes to regain my composure. I had read the book the greatest generation, but did not truly appreciate it until that moment.

[nfreeman]

PA where is the memoir available? I'm a huge fan of military history and love reading first person accounts, particularly about WWII.

 

A few years ago I had a patient who I had to tell there was nothing unless we could do for his metastatic cancer. I knew he was a WWII Vet, but I did not know the details. I said I'm sorry about the news I had just delivered, he smiled at me and said

 

"Doc, I was on the first Higgins Boat that landed in Easy Green Sector Omaha Beach, June 6, 1944. Out of the first ten guys to leave the boat I was the only one who made it out of the surf. I survived that day and was able to marry the girl of my dreams, be the father to five great kids, grandfather to twelve and great grandfather to seven and counting. I got to live a full life, feel sorry for my brothers who didn't. Thanks for everything you have done for me"

 

I mumbled something along the lines of your welcome and left the room and headed to the nearest stairwell. Once there it took me fifteen minutes to regain my composure. I had read the book the greatest generation, but did not truly appreciate it until that moment.

 

Awesome.

[K-9]

PA where is the memoir available? I'm a huge fan of military history and love reading first person accounts, particularly about WWII.

A few years ago I had a patient who I had to tell there was nothing unless we could do for his metastatic cancer. I knew he was a WWII Vet, but I did not know the details. I said I'm sorry about the news I had just delivered, he smiled at me and said

"Doc, I was on the first Higgins Boat that landed in Easy Green Sector Omaha Beach, June 6, 1944. Out of the first ten guys to leave the boat I was the only one who made it out of the surf. I survived that day and was able to marry the girl of my dreams, be the father to five great kids, grandfather to twelve and great grandfather to seven and counting. I got to live a full life, feel sorry for my brothers who didn't. Thanks for everything you have done for me"

I mumbled something along the lines of your welcome and left the room and headed to the nearest stairwell. Once there it took me fifteen minutes to regain my composure. I had read the book the greatest generation, but did not truly appreciate it until that moment.

Speechless.

[PASabreFan]

PA where is the memoir available? I'm a huge fan of military history and love reading first person accounts, particularly about WWII.

 

A few years ago I had a patient who I had to tell there was nothing unless we could do for his metastatic cancer. I knew he was a WWII Vet, but I did not know the details. I said I'm sorry about the news I had just delivered, he smiled at me and said

 

"Doc, I was on the first Higgins Boat that landed in Easy Green Sector Omaha Beach, June 6, 1944. Out of the first ten guys to leave the boat I was the only one who made it out of the surf. I survived that day and was able to marry the girl of my dreams, be the father to five great kids, grandfather to twelve and great grandfather to seven and counting. I got to live a full life, feel sorry for my brothers who didn't. Thanks for everything you have done for me"

 

I mumbled something along the lines of your welcome and left the room and headed to the nearest stairwell. Once there it took me fifteen minutes to regain my composure. I had read the book the greatest generation, but did not truly appreciate it until that moment.

Thanks for your interest, and for sharing your story. Just about says it all huh?

 

Here's where you can download the book:

 

http://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/20923-things-that-are-awesome/?p=587375

[Hoss]

PA, do you live in Bradford or just your father at the time the book was written? That's where I was born. I'm doing what little digging I can. It seems like you've done a lot of research since I'm finding a lot of stuff you already did.

 

I found another reference to this same Fred A. Scott from Washington. I know the age is a bit low for the description of late-20s, but there seems to be a lot pointing to him: http://www.ww2enlistment.org/index.php?page=directory&rec=7484352

 

His enlistment date would also line up with your father's comment about him being in the war since it started. He joined less than a year after the US entered WWII.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Hoss

[PASabreFan]

PA, do you live in Bradford or just your father at the time the book was written? That's where I was born. I'm doing what little digging I can. It seems like you've done a lot of research since I'm finding a lot of stuff you already did.

 

I found another reference to this same Fred A. Scott from Washington. I know the age is a bit low for the description of late-20s, but there seems to be a lot pointing to him: http://www.ww2enlistment.org/index.php?page=directory&rec=7484352

 

His enlistment date would also line up with your father's comment about him being in the war since it started. He joined less than a year after the US entered WWII.

Thanks Dylan. I appreciate your reading the book and helping out.

 

Fred was two and a half years older than my dad. Although it doesn't fit with the late-20s comment, it's enough to explain my dad's perception that he was the "old man." The term "Pappy" might even have originally been used jokingly. You know how it is when you enter college. A junior or senior is, ya know, OLD.

 

The enlistment date for Fred argues a bit against him being "Pappy," as my dad wrote that he had been with the division "from the beginning." The Third Division invaded Morocco in the fall of '42 to kick off its participation in the war, just before Fred enlisted. I think faulty memory could explain this one.

 

The fact Fred had no kids is a disappointment, in a way. I kind of daydreamed about giving the book to his "kid." But at least no wife got that news, and no kid grew up not knowing his father.

 

The deceased personnel file, which from what I read can contain many details of how someone died, will be telling. I am hoping for 100% confirmation. It's going to take four months, I think, to get the file. Actually no one responded to my email yet. Hey, it's the government.

 

Yep, all sharp-eyed and sharp-tongued Sabres analysts hail from Bradford!

Edited May 30, 2015 by PASabreFan

[Huckleberry]

Thanks all.  It is a great story.  I'm fortunate to have been able to dig up the information I have.  It amazes me that two generations later there are still dedicated volunteers that are keeping all this information at fingertip reach.

 

 

If you ever come to belgium , try and visit Flanders fields musuem, in Europe we got plenty of locations keeping records of both world wars.

 

http://www.inflandersfields.be/en

[MattPie]

Thanks for your interest, and for sharing your story. Just about says it all huh?

 

Here's where you can download the book:

 

http://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/20923-things-that-are-awesome/?p=587375

 

Just wondering: any chance there's an epub version of the book? I'm going to read it, but I'd love to be able to use my reader instead of the tablet or computer.

 

On my Dad's side, my grandfather tried to enlist a few times but was rejected due to a heart condition. Either my great aunt or grandmother worked in the Curtiss (??) factory in Buffalo on planes. (They're both Helen Pie, so I need to verify which one it was). I think my parents still have the aluminium soldering/welding kit in a green toolbox stamped with the name somewhere.

 

I don't know what my mom's side of the family did, I'll have to ask my mom next time she's here.