2015 / 2016 Line Up

[That Aud Smell]

Still waiting to try Eichel and Kane on separate lines for a couple of games. 

Well, Byslma is right. I don't like the pair either, but they are getting opportunities. 

 

It's the strangest damn thing, isn't it?

 

They don't look like a fit, but ... their line is generating a bunch of chances.

I don't think the test should be whether they've gotten chances--you put that much talent together and there going to generate something. The real question to me is how much more could Eichel generate if he didn't spend half of every shift praying to get the puck back on his stick.

 

Also fair. Except that I think, by and large, the measure of whether there's success is whether chances are being generated. 

[Derrico]

I don't think the test should be whether they've gotten chances--you put that much talent together and there going to generate something. The real question to me is how much more could Eichel generate if he didn't spend half of every shift praying to get the puck back on his stick.

This is more along my thinking as well.  I love Kane's game, I really do.  But I can see why he was playing on the third line for the Jets.  He does his own thing out there and is capable of doing it but I think Eichel could be generating more with another winger.

[That Aud Smell]

This is more along my thinking as well.  I love Kane's game, I really do.  But I can see why he was playing on the third line for the Jets.  He does his own thing out there and is capable of doing it but I think Eichel could be generating more with another winger.

 

I think we will see it at some point, won't we?

[TrueBlueGED]

It's the strangest damn thing, isn't it?

 

They don't look like a fit, but ... their line is generating a bunch of chances.

 

 

Also fair. Except that I think, by and large, the measure of whether there's success is whether chances are being generated.

It's all relative though because it's not an all or nothing scenario where you're either getting chances or you aren't. It very much a continuum of more or fewer chances. Just because the pair is generating chances doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. Bylsma certainly seems to see it this way given the frequency with which he's changing their RW.

I think we will see it at some point, won't we?

Presumably if the lack of scoring continues. I think Bylsma desperately wants it to work, which is why he's giving it so much time. What I find ironic is he foreshadowed this exact thing happening in the offseason. He said it would be pretty scary to have to defend against that much speed and skill (hence my interpretation about how badly he wants it to work) but also said it just might not fit because they both like to play with the puck (which is what I think most of us are seeing play out). Edited October 20, 2015 by TrueBlueGED

[WildCard]

I don't think the test should be whether they've gotten chances--you put that much talent together and there going to generate something. The real question to me is how much more could Eichel generate if he didn't spend half of every shift praying to get the puck back on his stick.

A good point. I still think it's not so much that Kane and Eichel have been so great together, but that Ennis and O'Reilly have been. O'Reilly isn't moving onto Eichel's wing, and with him and Ennis developing chemistry, that kind of forces Kane to be on Eichel's wing. Unless you want two rookies on the same line in Reinhart and Eichel, or Reinhart back on the 3rd, which I don't

[TrueBlueGED]

A good point. I still think it's not so much that Kane and Eichel have been so great together, but that Ennis and O'Reilly have been. O'Reilly isn't moving onto Eichel's wing, and with him and Ennis developing chemistry, that kind of forces Kane to be on Eichel's wing. Unless you want two rookies on the same line in Reinhart and Eichel, or Reinhart back on the 3rd, which I don't

Two of the players who belong in the top-6 certainly does toss a monkey wrench into things. I honestly and truly like the opening preseason line of Moulson-Eichel-Girgensons on paper. Moulson for tap-ins and underrated passing, Eichel as primary distributor and pace-setting force, and Girgensons as the bull digging pucks off the boards. While Moulson can't keep up with Eichel's speed, I'm not sure how important it is. Eichel already seems adept at carrying into the zone, so he can push the play whole Moulson catches up to get into position for a scoring chance while the D is busy chasing Eichel. Girgensons can keep up and go fight for a puck deep if the carry in isn't viable on a given possession. I just really like it on paper, and hope to get a chance to see it before all is said and done.

 

Sure Reinhart would be a bit of an odd man out in this scenario, but I can think of worse things than playing with some combo of Larsson, McGinn, Gionta and Foligno. I also wouldn't hate Kane skating with him and Larsson going to LW with O'Reilly and Ennis. Three balanced lines.

 

Larsson-O'Reilly-Ennis

Moulson-Eichel-Girgensons

Kane-Reinhart-Gionta/McGinn/Foligno

 

Force teams to pick their poison there.

[nfreeman]

Weber and Franson at this point is going to happen, the only good thing about it is they're the 3rd pair

 

 

Weber and Franson aren't 3rd pair.  They're consistently getting more ice time than Pysyk and McCabe.

 

I think there's been too much focus around here (not just by youse guys) on Weber & Franson's shortcomings, and not enough on what they bring to the table. 

 

I'm fairly confident that when Bogo returns, McCabe will sit -- not Weber.

 

 

This is more along my thinking as well.  I love Kane's game, I really do.  But I can see why he was playing on the third line for the Jets.  He does his own thing out there and is capable of doing it but I think Eichel could be generating more with another winger.

 

This is another popular meme that's sprung up around here.  Here's the troof:  in Kane's last full year with the Jets, he led all forwards in ice time.

 

A good point. I still think it's not so much that Kane and Eichel have been so great together, but that Ennis and O'Reilly have been. O'Reilly isn't moving onto Eichel's wing, and with him and Ennis developing chemistry, that kind of forces Kane to be on Eichel's wing. Unless you want two rookies on the same line in Reinhart and Eichel, or Reinhart back on the 3rd, which I don't

 

I like the ROR/Ennis combo too, but I don't think their chemistry is what's driving the pairings.  That would be the tail wagging the dog.  IMHO, DDB thinks (correctly) that Eichel and Kane are the Sabres' 2 best forwards, and he wants them together.

[qwksndmonster]

This is another popular meme that's sprung up around here. Here's the troof: in Kane's last full year with the Jets, he led all forwards in ice time.

 

 

Good post. I agree with you on the defense and think that Weber and Franson should continue playing together while it's working.

 

To the quoted: Kane playing on the third line is referencing his role with the team, not ice time. It's true that in his last year with Winnipeg he was deployed on their third line to give the offense a more balanced attack. Kane is so relentless that he'll create chances no matter who his linemates are. That's the thinking there, I don't think anybody was slagging Kane.

 

And FTR, I think that your reminders of the communication standards around here are important. Greatly reduces the b#tch fights.

Edited October 20, 2015 by qwksndmonster

[WildCard]

Two of the players who belong in the top-6 certainly does toss a monkey wrench into things. I honestly and truly like the opening preseason line of Moulson-Eichel-Girgensons on paper. Moulson for tap-ins and underrated passing, Eichel as primary distributor and pace-setting force, and Girgensons as the bull digging pucks off the boards. While Moulson can't keep up with Eichel's speed, I'm not sure how important it is. Eichel already seems adept at carrying into the zone, so he can push the play whole Moulson catches up to get into position for a scoring chance while the D is busy chasing Eichel. Girgensons can keep up and go fight for a puck deep if the carry in isn't viable on a given possession. I just really like it on paper, and hope to get a chance to see it before all is said and done.

 

Sure Reinhart would be a bit of an odd man out in this scenario, but I can think of worse things than playing with some combo of Larsson, McGinn, Gionta and Foligno. I also wouldn't hate Kane skating with him and Larsson going to LW with O'Reilly and Ennis. Three balanced lines.

 

Larsson-O'Reilly-Ennis

Moulson-Eichel-Girgensons

Kane-Reinhart-Gionta/McGinn/Foligno

 

Force teams to pick their poison there.

Rolling 3 lines with equal times is just not plausible IMO. Cutting our top 4 player's ice time to diversify the lines gives Larsson and Gionta/McGinn/Foligno the ice time they don't deserve. We're in a bind because there is no clear top 6, but rather just a clear top 4. I currently like the lines, though I would switch out Kane and Ennis. 

 

I think McGinn can accomplish Zemgus' role on that Eichel line, and I think the benefit of having Moulson on that 3rd outweighs the detriment of having him on the 2nd and Reinhart on the 3rd. 

 

 

Weber and Franson aren't 3rd pair.  They're consistently getting more ice time than Pysyk and McCabe.

 

I think there's been too much focus around here (not just by youse guys) on Weber & Franson's shortcomings, and not enough on what they bring to the table. 

 

I'm fairly confident that when Bogo returns, McCabe will sit -- not Weber.

 Maybe to start out with, but I believe that's because of youth, not skill. McCabe and Weber had the same TOI last game, both had 1 minute more than Pysk, and Franson had 4 minutes more than all of them but that is likely due to the pp time

 

I like the ROR/Ennis combo too, but I don't think their chemistry is what's driving the pairings.  That would be the tail wagging the dog.  IMHO, DDB thinks (correctly) that Eichel and Kane are the Sabres' 2 best forwards, and he wants them together.

I just don't agree. We've all heard him say at the beginning of the season that they play too similar of a game, and he and Murray watched/heard from Ennis how great it was to play with O'Reilly in the World's. I'm also not a huge fan of putting your two best forwards together when you have the center depth we have. Your best center should take the weaker wingers to elevate their game, and vice-versa 

 

Edited October 20, 2015 by WildCard

[TrueBlueGED]

O'Reilly is a better hockey player than Kane. That is all.

[Derrico]

Good post. I agree with you on the defense and think that Weber and Franson should continue playing together while it's working.

To the quoted: Kane playing on the third line is referencing his role with the team, not ice time. It's true that in his last year with Winnipeg he was deployed on their third line to give the offense a more balanced attack. Kane is so relentless that he'll create chances no matter who his linemates are. That's the thinking there, I don't think anybody was slagging Kane.

And FTR, I think that your reminders of the communication standards around here are important. Greatly reduces the b#tch fights.

This. Not slagging at all. Kane seems to be able to generate chances regardless of wingers.

[WildCard]

O'Reilly is a better hockey player than Kane. That is all.

Overall, yes. Offensively, no. Eichel, or your top center, doesn't need help offensively, he gives it

[TrueBlueGED]

Overall, yes. Offensively, no. Eichel, or your top center, doesn't need help offensively, he gives it

I'd even say offensively. Now, if you want to say Kane is a better scorer, no argument there. But I put a lot of value on O'Reilly's balanced game and his ability to adjust his play based on who he is with.

[WildCard]

I'd even say offensively. Now, if you want to say Kane is a better scorer, no argument there. But I put a lot of value on O'Reilly's balanced game and his ability to adjust his play based on who he is with.

Kane is a more dominate offensive presence than O'Reilly, both physically and scoring wise. O'Reilly is great at what you mention, but that makes him an good-great offensive player and a great overall forward, not an elite offensive player like Kane can be.  

Edited October 20, 2015 by WildCard

[JJFIVEOH]

After going to the Panthers-Sabres game the other night, it becomes much more apparent what O'Reilly brings to the table when you get to see the game and not just what the camera shows on TV.

[qwksndmonster]

WC, you're referring to Kane's offensive tools, which are no doubt better. But O'Reilly is much more offensively talented.

[WildCard]

WC, you're referring to Kane's offensive tools, which are no doubt better. But O'Reilly is much more offensively talented.

 Offensively, Kane  does not have such a drastic deficiency, or any at all really, in his ability to view the ice that allows O'Reilly's to completely overshadow the other numerous areas of Kane's offensive game that are better than O'Reilly's. 

The argument I'm getting here is the equivalence of Reinhart is offensively better than Ennis

Edited October 20, 2015 by WildCard

[TrueBlueGED]

Kane is a more dominate offensive presence than O'Reilly, both physically and scoring wise. O'Reilly is great at what you mention, but that makes him an good-great offensive player and a great overall forward, not an elite offensive player like Kane can be.

Well, I don't think Kane is an elite offensive player. So there's that. He has elite skills, but his limited vision prevents him from translating those into elite play (and probably related to why he's not great on the PP). He's an elite shot generator (for himself), but his overall offensive game does have some holes.

Edited October 20, 2015 by TrueBlueGED

[WildCard]

Well, I don't think Kane is an elite offensive player. So there's that. He has elite skills, but his limited vision prevents him from translating those into elite play (and probably related to why he's not great on the PP). He's an elite shot generator (for himself), but his overall offensive game does have some holes.

I don't think his vision is as poor as you're making it out to be. 

 

If it is, that's probably why Kane is on the same line as Eichel

Edited October 20, 2015 by WildCard

[Hoss]

I think there's been too much focus around here (not just by youse guys) on Weber & Franson's shortcomings, and not enough on what they bring to the table. 

I'm fairly confident that when Bogo returns, McCabe will sit -- not Weber.

 

 

 

This is another popular meme that's sprung up around here.  Here's the troof:  in Kane's last full year with the Jets, he led all forwards in ice time.

On the first point: I have no idea what Weber brings to the table aside from occasional physicality. He's incapable with and without the puck offensively and his defense isn't consistent. I agree on Franson, though. You take the bad with the good for a guy like him... He needs to build some confidence it seems.

If McCabe sits over Weber I would be disappointed. Weber has stuck around far too long. I have liked what I've seen from McCabe so far. Especially paired with Pysyk.

 

On the second: did not know that. I shouldn't be surprised but good stat to know.

[qwksndmonster]

 Offensively, Kane  does not have such a drastic deficiency, or any at all really, in his ability to view the ice that allows O'Reilly's to completely overshadow the other numerous areas of Kane's offensive game that are better than O'Reilly's. 

The argument I'm getting here is the equivalence of Reinhart is offensively better than Ennis

O'Reilly's dangling and passing are better as well, from what I've seen so far.  It'll be interesting to see how they progress.  They were both drafted in 2009 and played in the NHL right away.  Evander because of his skillset, O'Reilly because of his hockey noggin.

 

Kane has a ,612 PPG in his career, O'Reilly has .576.

 

From 2009-2011 O'Reilly played 145 games and scored 52 points, 26 per season exactly.  Kane played 139 games in that span and scored and scored 69 points. 26 in the first season, 43 in the second.

 

In 2011-2012 they both broke out.  Kane had 30 goals and 27 assists in 74 games.  O'Reilly had 18 goals and 37 assists in 81 games. Since then, they have pretty much produced at the same level.  O'Reilly was more consistent because Kane suffered injuries which slowed down his scoring pace a bit.

Hoss (and everybody else who slags Weber): He is a decent defensive player.

[Taro T]

Weber and Franson aren't 3rd pair.  They're consistently getting more ice time than Pysyk and McCabe.

 

I think there's been too much focus around here (not just by youse guys) on Weber & Franson's shortcomings, and not enough on what they bring to the table. 

 

I'm fairly confident that when Bogo returns, McCabe will sit -- not Weber.

 

 

 

 

This is another popular meme that's sprung up around here.  Here's the troof:  in Kane's last full year with the Jets, he led all forwards in ice time.

 

 

 

I like the ROR/Ennis combo too, but I don't think their chemistry is what's driving the pairings.  That would be the tail wagging the dog.  IMHO, DDB thinks (correctly) that Eichel and Kane are the Sabres' 2 best forwards, and he wants them together.

In an ideal world they would be (or even 4th pair). :)

 

Neither kid gets pp time like Franson & Weber seems to be getting a ton of pk time. W/out looking it up would expect that skews the time.

 

When Bogo comes back would prefer to see McCabe stay in the lineup and Weber go to 7th D. Though would not be at all surprised to see McCabe back in the A.

[WildCard]

O'Reilly's dangling and passing are better as well, from what I've seen so far.  It'll be interesting to see how they progress.  They were both drafted in 2009 and played in the NHL right away.  Evander because of his skillset, O'Reilly because of his hockey noggin.

 

Kane has a ,612 PPG in his career, O'Reilly has .576.

 

From 2009-2011 O'Reilly played 145 games and scored 52 points, 26 per season exactly.  Kane played 139 games in that span and scored and scored 69 points. 26 in the first season, 43 in the second.

 

In 2011-2012 they both broke out.  Kane had 30 goals and 27 assists in 74 games.  O'Reilly had 18 goals and 37 assists in 81 games. Since then, they have pretty much produced at the same level.  O'Reilly was more consistent because Kane suffered injuries which slowed down his scoring pace a bit.

Hoss (and everybody else who slags Weber): He is a decent defensive player.

So, not only has Kane outproduced O'Reilly, but he's done it with poorer line-mates

[LGR4GM]

Mike Weber is bringing things to the locker room. That may not be enough to keep him around after this year.

 

 

His Corsi is 44% thus far this season and he has 60% defensive zone start.  

[nfreeman]

On the first point: I have no idea what Weber brings to the table aside from occasional physicality. He's incapable with and without the puck offensively and his defense isn't consistent. I agree on Franson, though. You take the bad with the good for a guy like him... He needs to build some confidence it seems.

If McCabe sits over Weber I would be disappointed. Weber has stuck around far too long. I have liked what I've seen from McCabe so far. Especially paired with Pysyk.

 

On the second: did not know that. I shouldn't be surprised but good stat to know.

 

I too have been reasonably happy with McCabe -- he looks like he'll develop into a real NHL defenseman, which the Sabres (and everyone else) can certainly use more of.

 

To follow up on Kane and the Jets -- even last year with his injured shoulder, he was one of 4 forwards within 45 seconds or so of being #1 in ice time among forwards.

 

O'Reilly's dangling and passing are better as well, from what I've seen so far.  It'll be interesting to see how they progress.  They were both drafted in 2009 and played in the NHL right away.  Evander because of his skillset, O'Reilly because of his hockey noggin.

 

Kane has a ,612 PPG in his career, O'Reilly has .576.

 

From 2009-2011 O'Reilly played 145 games and scored 52 points, 26 per season exactly.  Kane played 139 games in that span and scored and scored 69 points. 26 in the first season, 43 in the second.

 

In 2011-2012 they both broke out.  Kane had 30 goals and 27 assists in 74 games.  O'Reilly had 18 goals and 37 assists in 81 games. Since then, they have pretty much produced at the same level.  O'Reilly was more consistent because Kane suffered injuries which slowed down his scoring pace a bit.

Hoss (and everybody else who slags Weber): He is a decent defensive player.

 

0.36 ppg is actually a fairly substantial difference.

 

In an ideal world they would be (or even 4th pair). :)

 

Neither kid gets pp time like Franson & Weber seems to be getting a ton of pk time. W/out looking it up would expect that skews the time.

 

When Bogo comes back would prefer to see McCabe stay in the lineup and Weber go to 7th D. Though would not be at all surprised to see McCabe back in the A.

 

And that is part of what he brings to the table.  (Although given how lousy the Sabres' PK has been, perhaps I shouldn't mention it!)

 

Mike Weber is bringing things to the locker room. That may not be enough to keep him around after this year.

 

 

His Corsi is 44% thus far this season and he has 60% defensive zone start.  

 

Weber's Corsi is lousy, to be sure, but I assume the high D-zone starts has a fair bit to do with that.

 

The D-zone starts also show that he plays the tough minutes and takes the tough assignments.  I think it's useful for the Sabres to be able to give him those assignments and take the pressure off Risto, Pysyk and McCabe.

 

He also led the team last year in blocked shots and led all defensemen in hits.

 

He clears the crease.  He throws his body in front of shots.  He'll lay a big hit on an opposing forward when he gets the chance.  And he comes to his teammates' defense.

 

I'll say it again:  there's a thin blue line, ladies and gentlemen, that makes sacrifices and bravely stands between us and the savages.

 

And some of you just want to throw him over.

 

I'm going to be sick.