Trade: Myers, Stafford, Armia, Lemieux, + Low 1st for Kane, Bogosian, and Kasdorf

[Hoss]

I saw a fan comment on the Sabres Page's photo of the Myers trade that they are "Not sad to see Mayer's leave." Mayer's. Tyler Mayer's.

 

 

[K-9]

5-0 i hear you and nucci 5-0 has been here awhile, i too question this trade especially Kane and his selfish tude.. Not going to go over well if we have to deal with a bi-polar who wont work.

A "bi-polar who won't work?" What aspect of attempting to play through a broken bone in his foot, another broken bone in his hand, all the while never knowing when his shoulder was gonna pop out of joint due to the labrum tear, suggests someone who won't work? You are confusing lack of maturity with lack of work ethic. 

 

Your characterization of him being bi-polar is simply ridiculous. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Onceagain]

When I first saw this trade, my initial reaction was that the sabres really gave up too much. However, the more you dig in the better it seems. 

 

Think about the adage of arguably the best asset trader of all time, Warren Buffet:  When others are fearful, be greedy.  When others are greedy, be fearful. In other words, buy low and sell high.  If you look at this trade this is exactly what Murray did. He bought low on an asset he believes was undervalued, in effect due to everyone 'fearing' the character of Evander Kane. Similarly, he sold high on his assets.  Watching Tyler Myers since his rookie year, it is easy to become infatuated with his skill and skating ability as a 6' 8" D-man.  But do not forget he has had some horrid stretches of play over years 2-4 of his career. Yes, he seems to be turning the corner, but by trading him now when he has been playing better, we are getting a much better return on him.  Even if he continues to play this way, I do not ever see him being one of those though D-men that other teams hate playing against (i.e. Pronger or Chara).  His value is more from his skating and offensive ability.  While those attributes will certainly be missed, by upgrading our forwards with a true top 3 talent, we do not have as much need for back-end scoring.

Similarly, Murray traded away the likes of Stafford and Lemieux, who are also playing at a level above their historical averages, thereby maximizing their return. There was a time when Stafford could not have been traded for a used Zamboni. Lemieux was bypassed by every team in the first round, even with a pedigree like his.  The late first round pick we gave up is a crapshoot at best and whatever it ends up being, it would take 4-5 years to realize that gain.  So, really, the only piece of this puzzle that we may have traded away as an undervalued asset was Armia.  He has not exactly been lighting up the AHL but he is still young and by all accounts improving. 

The more this trade sets-in the better I feel. What separates the best teams from the middle are the elite top-end talent on offense.  We have not had these type of players for years and now we potentially have 3 (Reinhart, Kane, and this year's draft pick).  So, hats off to Murray for taking a risk and I hope this all pans out. I have a good feeling we will look back on this as a pivotal moment for the rebirth of the Sabres!

[JJFIVEOH]

Again, 3 of those "parts" aren't even in the league yet. If they don't pan out as top 6 players, and odds are they won't, then all Kane has to do is maintain his top 6 ability. Not to say anything of Bogosian's unquestioned status as a top 4 D man. As X pointed out previously, Winnipeg bore the brunt of the risk in the trade. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

Again, how they 'turn out' is besides the point. All I said is he'd better be a top 3 forward and not a top 6 forward. You don't send over a 1st round pick, a 1st and 2nd round prospect, a former 1st round defenseman and a former 1st round forward and say it's OK if he turns out to be a top 6 forward if by some chance Lemieux and Armia don't pan out. 

A "bi-polar who won't work?" What aspect of attempting to play through a broken bone in his foot, another broken bone in his hand, all the while never knowing when his shoulder was gonna pop out of joint due to the labrum tear, suggests someone who won't work? You are confusing lack of maturity with lack of work ethic. 

 

Your characterization of him being bi-polar is simply ridiculous. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

He's not wrong in that this is a risky trade. 

[bunomatic]

When I first saw this trade, my initial reaction was that the sabres really gave up too much. However, the more you dig in the better it seems. 

 

Think about the adage of arguably the best asset trader of all time, Warren Buffet:  When others are fearful, be greedy.  When others are greedy, be fearful. In other words, buy low and sell high.  If you look at this trade this is exactly what Murray did. He bought low on an asset he believes was undervalued, in effect due to everyone 'fearing' the character of Evander Kane. Similarly, he sold high on his assets.  Watching Tyler Myers since his rookie year, it is easy to become infatuated with his skill and skating ability as a 6' 8" D-man.  But do not forget he has had some horrid stretches of play over years 2-4 of his career. Yes, he seems to be turning the corner, but by trading him now when he has been playing better, we are getting a much better return on him.  Even if he continues to play this way, I do not ever see him being one of those though D-men that other teams hate playing against (i.e. Pronger or Chara).  His value is more from his skating and offensive ability.  While those attributes will certainly be missed, by upgrading our forwards with a true top 3 talent, we do not have as much need for back-end scoring.

Similarly, Murray traded away the likes of Stafford and Lemieux, who are also playing at a level above their historical averages, thereby maximizing their return. There was a time when Stafford could not have been traded for a used Zamboni. Lemieux was bypassed by every team in the first round, even with a pedigree like his.  The late first round pick we gave up is a crapshoot at best and whatever it ends up being, it would take 4-5 years to realize that gain.  So, really, the only piece of this puzzle that we may have traded away as an undervalued asset was Armia.  He has not exactly been lighting up the AHL but he is still young and by all accounts improving. 

The more this trade sets-in the better I feel. What separates the best teams from the middle are the elite top-end talent on offense.  We have not had these type of players for years and now we potentially have 3 (Reinhart, Kane, and this year's draft pick).  So, hats off to Murray for taking a risk and I hope this all pans out. I have a good feeling we will look back on this as a pivotal moment for the rebirth of the Sabres!

I agree and good post. Reading some of these well thought out posts has really made me realize that what I initially thought was overpayment or perhaps a bad trade in some respects could actually be a watershed moment for the team. I'm excited about the future for this team and anticipate more changes and additions. Its going to be Great !

[Hoss]

[K-9]

Again, how they 'turn out' is besides the point. All I said is he'd better be a top 3 forward and not a top 6 forward. You don't send over a 1st round pick, a 1st and 2nd round prospect, a former 1st round defenseman and a former 1st round forward and say it's OK if he turns out to be a top 6 forward if by some chance Lemieux and Armia don't pan out. 

He's not wrong in that this is a risky trade. 

That's precisely the point. Because if they don't turn out, then it will prove that the Jets assumed the most risk. Or are you gonna suggest that Kane/Bogosian straight up for Myers/Stafford is somehow an even trade even if Stafford re-signs with Winnipeg?

 

GO SABRES!!!

[JJFIVEOH]

That's precisely the point. Because if they don't turn out, then it will prove that the Jets assumed the most risk. Or are you gonna suggest that Kane/Bogosian straight up for Myers/Stafford is somehow an even trade even if Stafford re-signs with Winnipeg?

 

GO SABRES!!!

This isn't about the risk. All I said is Kane better turn out to be a top 3 forward. I don't know how much more clear I can be. 

[K-9]

This isn't about the risk. All I said is Kane better turn out to be a top 3 forward. I don't know how much more clear I can be. 

But you attach that condition to Kane because we gave up those three prospects in the deal so how can you separate their development from the equation? I guess I'm having trouble understanding how you can say we gave up too much therefore Kane better be a top 3 while at the same time saying how they turn out doesn't matter; that the risk to Winnipeg in that regard somehow doesn't matter. 

 

The simple fact is you can't say we gave up too much until we know how those prospects shake out. Unless, as I asked earlier, you think that Kane/Bogosian for Myers/Stafford is somehow giving up too much on its own. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[JJFIVEOH]

But you attach that condition to Kane because we gave up those three prospects in the deal so how can you separate their development from the equation? I guess I'm having trouble understanding how you can say we gave up too much therefore Kane better be a top 3 while at the same time saying how they turn out doesn't matter; that the risk to Winnipeg in that regard somehow doesn't matter. 

 

The simple fact is you can't say we gave up too much until we know how those prospects shake out. Unless, as I asked earlier, you think that Kane/Bogosian for Myers/Stafford is somehow giving up too much on its own. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

Hockey experts say he's a top 3 player. 

Some have gone so far as to say he could be 'elite'.

Analytic nuts say he can be 'elite'.

Regardless of their production, Murray gave up FOUR 1st rounders and a 2nd. When you only get half the possessions in return, that to me equates to what better be a top 3 forward. 

 

The return isn't based on how Lemieux and Armia do in the future, the return is based on what they are projected to do AS OF RIGHT NOW. That is their value. 

 

All I said is Kane better be a top 3 forward. Stop making this more difficult than it has to be by putting words in my mouth. 

[K-9]

Hockey experts say he's a top 3 player. 

Some have gone so far as to say he could be 'elite'.

Analytic nuts say he can be 'elite'.

Regardless of their production, Murray gave up FOUR 1st rounders and a 2nd. When you only get half the possessions in return, that to me equates to what better be a top 3 forward. 

 

The return isn't based on how Lemieux and Armia do in the future, the return is based on what they are projected to do AS OF RIGHT NOW. That is their value. 

 

All I said is Kane better be a top 3 forward. Stop making this more difficult than it has to be by putting words in my mouth. 

I'm not sure that's possible. 

 

Feel free to say Kane should be whatever you feel he should be. But don't make this harder on the rest of us by suggesting that the mere number of bodies involved is what determines the value of the trade and not what those bodies end up being in the league or not. 

 

I leave you in peace. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[JJFIVEOH]

I'm not sure that's possible. 

 

Feel free to say Kane should be whatever you feel he should be. But don't make this harder on the rest of us by suggesting that the mere number of bodies involved is what determines the value of the trade and not what those bodies end up being in the league or not. 

 

I leave you in peace. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

Trades aren't made based on what prospects do in the future. Trades are made based on what they are projected to do in the future by those that scout them. Cody Hodgson was traded based on what was thought he could do in the future, he wasn't traded for what he is doing this season. And yes the number of bodies does make a difference. Take away Armia and Lemieux and see if that deal gets done. 

 

Murray brought Kane in with the anticipation of him being a top 3 forward. He doesn't make this trade if he thought Kane was going to be a top 6. 

 

Have a great evening.  ;)

[shrader]

Why on earth does the draft status of any of these players matter? It's awfully convenient to bring that up for who the sabres gave up but then ignore that Bogosian and Kane went third and fourth overall.

[JJFIVEOH]

Why on earth does the draft status of any of these players matter? It's awfully convenient to bring that up for who the sabres gave up but then ignore that Bogosian and Kane went third and fourth overall.

The only thing being ignored is my point. 

[Johnny DangerFace]

The only thing being ignored is my point. 

 

Quick who is better, Miller or Enroth?!

[GrassValleyGreg]

Sorry, I know I just started posting. But why is there a Panther logo with a dude from Boca Raton dominating this possibly historic trade board?

[Hoss]

Sorry, I know I just started posting. But why is there a Panther logo with a dude from Boca Raton dominating this possibly historic trade board?

Heroin.

[darksabre]

Sorry, I know I just started posting. But why is there a Panther logo with a dude from Boca Raton dominating this possibly historic trade board?

Occupy Wall Street.

[K-9]

The only thing being ignored is my point. 

I'm not ignoring it so much as dismissing it entirely. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Weave]

I'm not ignoring it so much as dismissing it entirely. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

LOL

[GrassValleyGreg]

Occupy Wall Street.

 

Heroin.

 

Cool! Big fan guys.

 

Been reading on here for a while. Became more engaged this year in search of some support for what was going to be a painful yet fruitful season. Thanks for the commiseration!

[WildCard]

Cool! Big fan guys.

 

Been reading on here for a while. Became more engaged this year in search of some support for what was going to be a painful yet fruitful season. Thanks for the commiseration!

Is your avatar Tobias Funke? 

[JJFIVEOH]

I'm not ignoring it so much as dismissing it entirely. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

That would explain your comprehension issues. 

[nfreeman]

Didn't see this posted yet.  Masisak writes a nicely objective look at this trade, makes the front page of NHL.com.

 

He looks at shots per game season averages as propelling Kane into elite territory...

 

Kane has proven he is one of the best shot generators in the League. This was his worst season for the Winnipeg Jets in that department, and he still averaged 3.41 shots on goal per game.

 

This is the fifth season Kane has averaged more than 3.2 shots per game of his six in the NHL. Check out the accompanying table for some historical perspective on players who generated shots at that level of consistency by their age-23 season.

 

There are four other players (dating back as far in NHL history as shots on goal have officially been tallied, which is the start of the 1967-68 season) who have five seasons with at least 3.2 shots on goal per game by Kane's age, and 12 who have at least four seasons.

 

That is pretty accomplished company to be part of. That's six Hockey Hall of Fame members, the three best offensive players to enter the NHL in the past decade (Ovechkin, Sidney Crosby and Steven Stamkos) and two other guys (Rick Martin and Geoff Sanderson) who each had at least three 30-goal seasons after turning 24 years old.

 

 

 

Now I'm officially psyched to have Kane.  Rick Martin was my favorite player when I was a kid.

 

Five parts were given up for two. That adds up to a top 3. Stats keep telling us that he's potentially elite. Experts keep telling us he can be elite. Anything but a top 3 forward makes this trade unacceptable. 

Lighten up Francis, what makes you think your opinion is so much more damn important than mine? Jesus Christ I can't say anything around here without people getting their panties in a wad. I guess this place isn't about differing opinions any more.......... after all I must be the only one questioning this trade. 

 

Your questions are legit.  They definitely gave up a lot. 

 

5-0 i hear you and nucci 5-0 has been here awhile, i too question this trade especially Kane and his selfish tude.. Not going to go over well if we have to deal with a bi-polar who wont work.

 

The attitude question and getting along with teammates question are also legit -- but I think his work ethic and playing hard are generally well respected.

 

Again, 3 of those "parts" aren't even in the league yet. If they don't pan out as top 6 players, and odds are they won't, then all Kane has to do is maintain his top 6 ability. Not to say anything of Bogosian's unquestioned status as a top 4 D man. As X pointed out previously, Winnipeg bore the brunt of the risk in the trade. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

Well, I suppose the risk is that Myers steps up to star defenseman status and one of the other 4 assets hits it big as well (although hard to count Stafford with the other 3) -- while Bogo stagnates and Kane goes off the deep end.

 

You can't say the risk of that outcome is negligible, or even very low. 

 

That's precisely the point. Because if they don't turn out, then it will prove that the Jets assumed the most risk. Or are you gonna suggest that Kane/Bogosian straight up for Myers/Stafford is somehow an even trade even if Stafford re-signs with Winnipeg?

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

OTOH, this is also true -- i.e. if Myers-for-Bogo is more or less even, while Kane is substantially better than any of the other 4 assets coming from the Sabres -- then the Sabres will have made a good trade.  The likelihood of this outcome is probably better than 50%, IMHO.  I just don't think JJ50's concerns are unreasonable. 

 

Also you have to be patient with him as he is grieving over the loss of Enroth.

 

Sorry, I know I just started posting. But why is there a Panther logo with a dude from Boca Raton dominating this possibly historic trade board?

 

Very nice.

 

Quick who is better, Miller or Enroth?!

 

This too.

[GrassValleyGreg]

Is your avatar Tobias Funke? 

Expand beyond Arrested! This is David Cross, just as one of his many much funnier Mr. Show characters.