Trettioåtta Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Kane could sign a 50 year contract and someone would suggest he would still sign with us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubkev Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Kane could sign a 50 year contract and someone would suggest he would still sign with us Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jsixspd Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 The Kings had done a great job of neutralizing Kane in the first 4 games of the series. But now 7 points in 2 must-win games..... His play in the 3rd period last night was tremendous, and forces a Game 7 back in Chicago. Great performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaLaLaFontaine Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 The Kings had done a great job of neutralizing Kane in the first 4 games of the series. But now 7 points in 2 must-win games..... His play in the 3rd period last night was tremendous, and forces a Game 7 back in Chicago. Great performance. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Still think there's no such thing as a clutch player? I didn't say there's no such thing as a clutch player. I said there's no way for us to know if it's clutch or randomness because of a variety of measurement issues and questioned how much it even matters because of time on ice and contextual issues. Was Jon Quick ever really clutch? He was, then he wasn't then he was, and now he isn't. Vive la measurement issues! Yeah, but he's stepped up when it really mattered. And if the Hawks lose game 7 and he has zero impact? Does he lose his clutchness then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) I didn't say there's no such thing as a clutch player. I said there's no way for us to know if it's clutch or randomness because of a variety of measurement issues and questioned how much it even matters because of time on ice and contextual issues. Was Jon Quick ever really clutch? He was, then he wasn't then he was, and now he isn't. Vive la measurement issues! And if the Hawks lose game 7 and he has zero impact? Does he lose his clutchness then? How's this for measurement? Mike Morreale @mikemorrealeNHL · 10h Per @EliasSports, Patrick Kane has tallied 52 points (24G, 28A) in 45 matches in Games 4-7 of a series. Edited May 31, 2014 by Eleven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) How's this for measurement? Mike Morreale @mikemorrealeNHL · 10h Per @EliasSports, Patrick Kane has tallied 52 points (24G, 28A) in 45 matches in Games 4-7 of a series. So games 4-7 are the only clutch situations in hockey? If your answer is no, then this is just truncating the sample of clutch situations to make a very stylized point. Edit: Another consideration is are the entirety of those games clutch situations? Or only the 3rd period? Or maybe one the last half of the 3rd period if the team is trailing? Edited May 31, 2014 by TrueBluePhD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) So games 4-7 are the only clutch situations in hockey? If your answer is no, then this is just truncating the sample of clutch situations to make a very stylized point. Edit: Another consideration is are the entirety of those games clutch situations? Or only the 3rd period? Or maybe one the last half of the 3rd period if the team is trailing? It's just a measurement idea that I came across shortly after reading your post. It's not designed to make a point. Edited May 31, 2014 by Eleven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 It's just a measurement idea that I came across shortly after reading your post. It's not designed to make a point. I was awakened at 7am on a Saturday. I'm cranky! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Kane is just really f'n good all the time. So it makes sense that he is also good in clutch time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Kane is just really f'n good all the time. So it makes sense that he is also good in clutch time. Yes! :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 I was awakened at 7am on a Saturday. I'm cranky! I assume, even though I hate to do that, your 7am wakeup call wasn't a strip-a-gram greeting for your B-Day. Happy day to you. You young pup, you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Amerk Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 And if the Hawks lose game 7 and he has zero impact? Does he lose his clutchness then? That's a mighty big if. Chicago is now 13-0 in Games 5-7 over the past two seasons, and 5-0 when facing elimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 I didn't say there's no such thing as a clutch player. I said there's no way for us to know if it's clutch or randomness because of a variety of measurement issues and questioned how much it even matters because of time on ice and contextual issues. Was Jon Quick ever really clutch? He was, then he wasn't then he was, and now he isn't. Vive la measurement issues! And if the Hawks lose game 7 and he has zero impact? Does he lose his clutchness then? How about: you know it when you see it? Or at least: until an accurate advanced stat is developed and agreed upon for "clutchness" -- it is hard to quantify (although I don't see how someone could reasonably argue that goals in the 3rd periods of close playoff games aren't "clutch" stats), but it definitely exists, and some guys clearly have it, while others clearly don't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 How about: you know it when you see it? Or at least: until an accurate advanced stat is developed and agreed upon for "clutchness" -- it is hard to quantify (although I don't see how someone could reasonably argue that goals in the 3rd periods of close playoff games aren't "clutch" stats), but it definitely exists, and some guys clearly have it, while others clearly don't? You should know that Potter Stewart's half-assed perspective isn't going to convince me of anything here. My retort is simple: the problem with that standard is you think you know what you're seeing, but the eye is easily tricked, especially when dealing with really small sample sizes. It just isn't even remotely convincing to me. You could ccertainly argue that 3rd period goals in the playoffs are clutch goals, and I really won't push back much on that. But saying something is a clutch goal is significantly different than saying it was scored because of clutch ability. I return to Swamp's point: Kane is great all the time, so of course he's going to score clutch goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 You should know that Potter Stewart's half-assed perspective isn't going to convince me of anything here. My retort is simple: the problem with that standard is you think you know what you're seeing, but the eye is easily tricked, especially when dealing with really small sample sizes. It just isn't even remotely convincing to me. You could ccertainly argue that 3rd period goals in the playoffs are clutch goals, and I really won't push back much on that. But saying something is a clutch goal is significantly different than saying it was scored because of clutch ability. I return to Swamp's point: Kane is great all the time, so of course he's going to score clutch goals. Really small sample sizes, yes, but when someone has played in, say 50+ playoff/Olympics games, is that still a small sample size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) @FriedgeHNIC: Games 5-7 last two years: Kane now 8 goals, 10 assists in 14 games. Math is now accurate. Make that 8 goals and 11 assists. Edited June 2, 2014 by Tankalicious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Really small sample sizes, yes, but when someone has played in, say 50+ playoff/Olympics games, is that still a small sample size? Yes, absolutely, it's tiny. For illustration: Drew Stafford once scored 31 goals and 52 points in 62 games. He had a shooting percentage 7 points over his career average. It happens. Think of some of Vanek's hot streaks. And so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Yes, absolutely, it's tiny. For illustration: Drew Stafford once scored 31 goals and 52 points in 62 games. He had a shooting percentage 7 points over his career average. It happens. Think of some of Vanek's hot streaks. And so on. Playoffs, Olympics and late-series games aren't "hot streaks," though. The Olympics happen once every four years. The playoffs once a year. There's no momentum taken from one to the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Playoffs, Olympics and late-series games aren't "hot streaks," though. The Olympics happen once every four years. The playoffs once a year. There's no momentum taken from one to the other. But if you believe in momentum, then there's absolutely momentum within them. Remember when Ville Leino was over a point per game player for a Stanley Cup Finals run? Obviously Kane has done it more than once, so consider the following: Before tonight's game Kane had 18 points in 18 playoff games this year, and 69 points in 69 regular season games. He's a point per game player in the regular season, the playoffs, and the Olympics for his career. He's the same guy, doing the same thing he always does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Amerk Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 But if you believe in momentum, then there's absolutely momentum within them. Remember when Ville Leino was over a point per game player for a Stanley Cup Finals run? Obviously Kane has done it more than once, so consider the following: Before tonight's game Kane had 18 points in 18 playoff games this year, and 69 points in 69 regular season games. He's a point per game player in the regular season, the playoffs, and the Olympics for his career. He's the same guy, doing the same thing he always does. Yeah, except he had 2 points tonight. 20 points in 19 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Yeah, except he had 2 points tonight. 20 points in 19 games. You're trolling me, right? After all, he only had 19 points in 23 games last year when they won the Cup. It doesn't matter either way. Of course there's going to be some variance, but at the end of the day he's a point per game player in every situation other than juniors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallawaySabres Posted June 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 I think Chicago will do absolutely everything possible to keep Toews and Kane together for the next 7 years but if there was ever that .0001 chance of Kane moving on, Buffalo would have the best shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 I think Chicago will do absolutely everything possible to keep Toews and Kane together for the next 7 years but if there was ever that .0001 chance of Kane moving on, Buffalo would have the best shot. The issue is that they won't be able to pay everybody. Between Kane, Toews and Keith they'll be dedicating a whole lot of cap to a few players. The Penguins haven't faired well under that model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sloth Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 The issue is that they won't be able to pay everybody. Between Kane, Toews and Keith they'll be dedicating a whole lot of cap to a few players. The Penguins haven't faired well under that model. I agree. And I would be beyond excited if Murray some how brought Kane to Buffalo. In all honesty, I do not think it's possible. Chicago knows they have to keep Kane and Toews. Keith would be a major loss, but it'd be better for the Blackhawks to keep their offensive weapons/fan favorites on the team. Unless there is a "home town discount," it'd be a bad idea to keep all three in Chicago. Your point on the Penguins sums it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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