Grigorenko

[...]

I completely agree that it's way too soon to judge Griggy (or Armia, for that matter) -- although I continue to think that it's at least 50% likely that both of them wash out.

 

I just disagree with the notion that Griggy has shown anything whatsoever on the ice to merit any optimism about him.

 

I think the optimism about him stems almost 100% from (i) the fact that he's a big center who put up good numbers in juniors and (ii) the semi-desperate hope that he's a highly talented kid who unfairly slid in the draft and the Sabres got lucky that he fell to them.

 

Nothing wrong with that, of course. I personally have higher hopes for Carrier (and of course Reinhart) than I do for Griggy and Armia, but those are similarly unsupported by having seen them play.

 

Yeah, well, no. I went and watched him play last week. He showed a lot more than Reinhart.

 

Any optimism I have for Grigorenko is based on his behavior and statements since being horrendously mishandled by Regier, and by watching him.

 

He has incredible skill. No one should deny him that because, when it shows, it shows.

 

He is staying in Buffalo to work out and improve his game. How many players on the team are doing that? Girgensons, I know. Okay, well, who better to stick around with than Girgensons? It's pretty clear the kid is trying, and is learning that he has to try more. He isn't quitting or giving up, or going back to Russia.

 

So, you take the skill which he has, you take the "I'm going to make this work" attitude he seems to have and which seems to be maturing, you take his improved strength and conditioning, and, yes, his improved skating (he skated pretty well last week), what do you have? I think you have more than a %50 shot at being something in the league.

 

In contrast, nfreeman, to your assertion that "the hope" for Grigorenko is paper-based, I would say the pessimism is similarly loosely based. All of it is conjecture and can be assigned to any player. A lot of the negativity has much to do with the inkman's consistent criticism and bashing of the kid.

 

At the very least, I, personally, am trying to gather as many tangible elements to put together into a collage of what is going on with the guy, and what I see gives more cause for optimism, right now, than pessimism.

 

Let's see what he's doing in the AHL in December. We'll have a much better idea of where he's at - the trends I see suggest a lot of people could be pleasantly surprised.

 

I do reserve the right to a mea culpa at any time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Johnny DangerFace]

 

 

DR or TP? Sorry. It's all there in the record. Terry gave a big "why the hell wouldn't we?" to Grig staying with the Sabres after his "tryout." Parroting Darcy's company line, or the company line from the horse's mouth? You make the call.

 

You wanted the owner to medel with hockey decisions?

 

(Wait so he didn't medel and therefore he meddled?)

[Derrico]

I think we're going to know a lot about this kid come February. Give him the majority of the year in ROC and if he plays above average then give him a shot up here. Based on what I saw he looked alright at the scrimmage but in no way was he dominant (from where I was sitting). I hear he played well in the 3 on 3 but that is almost to be expected. Give the kid space and he plays well, I need to see it come game time.

[LastPommerFan]

Yeah, well, no. I went and watched him play last week. He showed a lot more than Reinhart.

 

Any optimism I have for Grigorenko is based on his behavior and statements since being horrendously mishandled by Regier, and by watching him.

 

He has incredible skill. No one should deny him that because, when it shows, it shows.

 

He is staying in Buffalo to work out and improve his game. How many players on the team are doing that? Girgensons, I know. Okay, well, who better to stick around with than Girgensons? It's pretty clear the kid is trying, and is learning that he has to try more. He isn't quitting or giving up, or going back to Russia.

 

So, you take the skill which he has, you take the "I'm going to make this work" attitude he seems to have and which seems to be maturing, you take his improved strength and conditioning, and, yes, his improved skating (he skated pretty well last week), what do you have? I think you have more than a %50 shot at being something in the league.

 

In contrast, nfreeman, to your assertion that "the hope" for Grigorenko is paper-based, I would say the pessimism is similarly loosely based. All of it is conjecture and can be assigned to any player. A lot of the negativity has much to do with the inkman's consistent criticism and bashing of the kid.

 

At the very least, I, personally, am trying to gather as many tangible elements to put together into a collage of what is going on with the guy, and what I see gives more cause for optimism, right now, than pessimism.

 

Let's see what he's doing in the AHL in December. We'll have a much better idea of where he's at - the trends I see suggest a lot of people could be pleasantly surprised.

 

I do reserve the right to a mea culpa at any time.

 

Great post, especially the bolded.

[nfreeman]

Yeah, well, no. I went and watched him play last week. He showed a lot more than Reinhart.

 

Any optimism I have for Grigorenko is based on his behavior and statements since being horrendously mishandled by Regier, and by watching him.

 

He has incredible skill. No one should deny him that because, when it shows, it shows.

 

He is staying in Buffalo to work out and improve his game. How many players on the team are doing that? Girgensons, I know. Okay, well, who better to stick around with than Girgensons? It's pretty clear the kid is trying, and is learning that he has to try more. He isn't quitting or giving up, or going back to Russia.

 

So, you take the skill which he has, you take the "I'm going to make this work" attitude he seems to have and which seems to be maturing, you take his improved strength and conditioning, and, yes, his improved skating (he skated pretty well last week), what do you have? I think you have more than a %50 shot at being something in the league.

 

In contrast, nfreeman, to your assertion that "the hope" for Grigorenko is paper-based, I would say the pessimism is similarly loosely based. All of it is conjecture and can be assigned to any player. A lot of the negativity has much to do with the inkman's consistent criticism and bashing of the kid.

 

At the very least, I, personally, am trying to gather as many tangible elements to put together into a collage of what is going on with the guy, and what I see gives more cause for optimism, right now, than pessimism.

 

Let's see what he's doing in the AHL in December. We'll have a much better idea of where he's at - the trends I see suggest a lot of people could be pleasantly surprised.

 

I do reserve the right to a mea culpa at any time.

 

I appreciate your perspective, but the pessimism is not all conjecture. It's based 100% on facts -- i.e. observation of what he's done in NHL games -- which is a whole lotta nuttin'. And while I do try to base my life on inkman's teachings, I will claim that I arrived at that conclusion on my own.

 

And while Griggy may have a lot of skill (which hasn't been displayed at the NHL level), so did Linus Omark.

 

FWIW, I like the fact that he seems to be acting in a diligent and professional manner, and that you (and others) have reported that his skating looks improved. I just need to see him look even a little bit effective in a game before I become optimistic about him.

[MattPie]

I appreciate your perspective, but the pessimism is not all conjecture. It's based 100% on facts -- i.e. observation of what he's done in NHL games -- which is a whole lotta nuttin'. And while I do try to base my life on inkman's teachings, I will claim that I arrived at that conclusion on my own.

 

And while Griggy may have a lot of skill (which hasn't been displayed at the NHL level), so did Linus Omark.

 

FWIW, I like the fact that he seems to be acting in a diligent and professional manner, and that you (and others) have reported that his skating looks improved. I just need to see him look even a little bit effective in a game before I become optimistic about him.

 

Fair enough. I'm going to stay neutral to mildly hopeful on him until I see him not showing anything on a "normal" 12-overall pick timeline. Next year is probably go-no go.

[LastPommerFan]

nfreeman- not showing high end results in half a season of games, with very limited minutes and no surrounding talent is not a body of work to base ANY analysis on.

 

At this point, his performance in Juniors and International competition is far more indicative. 43 games with extremely limited minutes and little in the way of helpful linemate is useless for evaluation which, in my opinion, is further evidence of his mismanagement.

[...]

 

 

Fair enough. I'm going to stay neutral to mildly hopeful on him until I see him not showing anything on a "normal" 12-overall pick timeline. Next year is probably go-no go.

 

I agree. I don't know how one can stand by their assessment of an 18-year-old on a crappy line on a doubly-crappy team being run by an incredibly crappy staff all under the umbrella of an organization in obvious turmoil.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2014 by sizzlemeister

[PASabreFan]

You wanted the owner to medel with hockey decisions?

 

(Wait so he didn't medel and therefore he meddled?)

 

No, I wanted Darcy to make the call. With Darcy's M.O. over many years, Grigorenko should have been sent down. He wasn't, and that along with Pegula's comment to Sylvester make me think Terry probably meddled.

[...]

 

 

No, I wanted Darcy to make the call. With Darcy's M.O. over many years, Grigorenko should have been sent down. He wasn't, and that along with Pegula's comment to Sylvester make me think Terry probably meddled.

 

I will agree. This was right during the period of time when TP's meddling was at or near its apex.

[nfreeman]

nfreeman- not showing high end results in half a season of games, with very limited minutes and no surrounding talent is not a body of work to base ANY analysis on.

 

At this point, his performance in Juniors and International competition is far more indicative. 43 games with extremely limited minutes and little in the way of helpful linemate is useless for evaluation which, in my opinion, is further evidence of his mismanagement.

I agree. I don't know how one can stand by their assessment of an 18-year-old on a crappy line on a doubly-crappy team being run by an incredibly crappy staff all under the umbrella of an organization in obvious turmoil.

 

Jeez. I'm making neither an analysis nor an assessment, and I said unequivocally that it's too early to judge. All I'm saying is that we haven't seen anything -- and I mean seen, with our own eyes, in a game -- from him to indicate that he's going to be a good NHL player.

[LastPommerFan]

Jeez. I'm making neither an analysis nor an assessment, and I said unequivocally that it's too early to judge. All I'm saying is that we haven't seen anything -- and I mean seen, with our own eyes, in a game -- from him to indicate that he's going to be a good NHL player.

 

pessimism is an assessment. :P

[LGR4GM]

DR or TP? Sorry. It's all there in the record. Terry gave a big "why the hell wouldn't we?" to Grig staying with the Sabres after his "tryout." Parroting Darcy's company line, or the company line from the horse's mouth? You make the call.

This sums up why Darcy was a sh!tastic GM. Even if Terry said that it would be Darcy's job to have final say and since La Fontaine was able to dismiss Grigorenko with a flick of his wrist, I somehow doubt that Terry was meddling that much. Darcy should have stopped being a yes man and said he wasn't ready. So yes Darcy Regier is at fault for Mikhail Grigorenko's deplorable development strategy.

 

 

Also can you stop interjecting your TP hate/annoyance/conspiracytheory/trial/whateverthe######itis into every single thread?

 

I think we're going to know a lot about this kid come February. Give him the majority of the year in ROC and if he plays above average then give him a shot up here. Based on what I saw he looked alright at the scrimmage but in no way was he dominant (from where I was sitting). I hear he played well in the 3 on 3 but that is almost to be expected. Give the kid space and he plays well, I need to see it come game time.

Leave in him in Rochester for the entire season, no call ups. I don't care if he is #1 in goals, points, and plus minus. He needs stability and has been rushed enough.

 

No, I wanted Darcy to make the call. With Darcy's M.O. over many years, Grigorenko should have been sent down. He wasn't, and that along with Pegula's comment to Sylvester make me think Terry probably meddled.

Still Darcy's fault because he should have said "no, he isn't ready." You think if Pegula walked into Murray's office and said "Reinhart is ready to go! He will def be in the opening lineup." and Murray thought otherwise, where would Reinhart play?

 

Darcy is at fault because regardless of what the owner thought it is his responsibility as the GM to forcibly do his job if necessary.

 

Darcy Regier is a yes man. Pegula could have said he liked waffles instead of pizza and Darcy would never have eaten waffles again. He is and was a yes man and regardless of what Pegula said, that is Darcy Regier's fault. Tim Murray is perfect evidence that Pegula does not simply have last say because it is quite obvious Murray does what he wants.

 

I can't believe I am yet again having the same argument.

[Hoss]

 

Having optimism for a 20 year old is normal, having faith that he'll become something is entirely different.

 

I had faith that McDavid would be special when he was 15, but that's completely different.

[tom webster]

I have no idea if Grigo is going to develop into a top center or not. As a fan I hope he does for obvious reasons.

However, this continued assertion that his handling has set him back is pure speculation. There is no iron clad proof that handling him differently would have resulted in anything except him dominating Juniors and thinking he's all that. In fact, his apparent change in attitude may show that he was handled perfectly and the desired result is forthcoming.

Similarly, I hate how Paul Hamilton continues to assert that sending Risto down to Rochester had such a great effect. What proof is there that he wouldn't have developed the same if he played all year in Buffalo.

[PASabreFan]

Also can you stop interjecting your TP hate/annoyance/conspiracytheory/trial/whateverthe######itis into every single thread?

 

When it comes up, it comes up. It's my opinion. You quit offering your opinions, and I will do the same.

[thewookie1]

I have no idea if Grigo is going to develop into a top center or not. As a fan I hope he does for obvious reasons.

However, this continued assertion that his handling has set him back is pure speculation. There is no iron clad proof that handling him differently would have resulted in anything except him dominating Juniors and thinking he's all that. In fact, his apparent change in attitude may show that he was handled perfectly and the desired result is forthcoming.

Similarly, I hate how Paul Hamilton continues to assert that sending Risto down to Rochester had such a great effect. What proof is there that he wouldn't have developed the same if he played all year in Buffalo.

 

I actually agree with Paul Hamilton on this; Risto was originally pissed about being sent down, but hit it off with a vet D-man down there. He got humbled by the experience and looked much better when he returned.

 

Could he have done the same in Buffalo? I'm uncertain, I think he needed that humbling experience and the sheer difference in situation likely helped foster his improvement. It may have also helped due to his experience in the Finnish league and having a closer skill jump to allow him to adjust his game. Thus when he returned he had grown up a lot, was more confident, and had a sense of accomplishment.

[tom webster]

 

 

I actually agree with Paul Hamilton on this; Risto was originally pissed about being sent down, but hit it off with a vet D-man down there. He got humbled by the experience and looked much better when he returned.

 

Could he have done the same in Buffalo? I'm uncertain, I think he needed that humbling experience and the sheer difference in situation likely helped foster his improvement. It may have also helped due to his experience in the Finnish league and having a closer skill jump to allow him to adjust his game. Thus when he returned he had grown up a lot, was more confident, and had a sense of accomplishment.

 

I don't deny that it could have helped. My point is that no one knows. Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman were destroyed and beat to hell their rookie years playing on historically bad teams yet survived. Other guys folded under similar scenarios. There is no tried and true absolute method. That's my point. Ultimately, what happens to Grigo will in my opinion have little to do with how he was handled his first couple years and have everything to do with what kind of man and player he really is.

[Huckleberry]

I wouldn't be surprised if by january he is is centering a line with the sabres as Reinhart gets send back in october.

[...]

I have no idea if Grigo is going to develop into a top center or not. As a fan I hope he does for obvious reasons.

However, this continued assertion that his handling has set him back is pure speculation. There is no iron clad proof that handling him differently would have resulted in anything except him dominating Juniors and thinking he's all that. In fact, his apparent change in attitude may show that he was handled perfectly and the desired result is forthcoming.

 

I don't see a continued assertion that he was set back. I do see people saying he has handled incorrectly, which is true. Perhaps you're saying the same thing, but as far as the result of his being mishandled, it could very well have done him a world of good. Being humbled like that could very well have saved his career: if before he thought he was the sh*t, his ego was brought down a notch to two, allowing him to see and appreciate the bigger picture.

 

Of course I don't know if this is the case, but we were all 18 once, and even without a potential career as a star in the NHL, I was pretty sure I knew better than everyone else (when the reality was that I knew nothing). It took some real world events to slap me into shape when I was about 20. Wish I had those lessons, as hard as they were, earlier in life.

[LastPommerFan]

A Spreadsheet for Perspective.

 

Stats for all forwards taken between 10 and 15 for the last 5 drafts classes who have had a chance to play.

Untitled spreadsheet - Sheet1.pdf

[Huckleberry]

A Spreadsheet for Perspective.

 

Stats for all forwards taken between 10 and 15 for the last 5 drafts classes who have had a chance to play.

 

That just makes him look good :P

 

All kidding aside, his first year he had no bussiness being up with club, i can understand them trying to give him a shot during the 2nd year.

Because he also wasn't doing to bad during the offseason, but he wasn't playing with john scott then. Just hope he learned some defense and hard work from being stuck at the 4th line.

[LastPommerFan]

That just makes him look good :P

 

All kidding aside, his first year he had no bussiness being up with club, i can understand them trying to give him a shot during the 2nd year.

Because he also wasn't doing to bad during the offseason, but he wasn't playing with john scott then. Just hope he learned some defense and hard work from being stuck at the 4th line.

 

I think the spreadsheet indicates that with the exception of Girgensons, there is no real data to judge the 10-15th picks in the 2012 draft.

 

Given the progress of other players picked at his level, and who had even LESS to show from other leagues, with the exception of Nichushkin, I expect him to play 15-30 NHL games this year and score between 0.25 and 0.35 ppg.

 

2015-16 season we will find out what kind of player he's going to be.

[X. Benedict]

Early days for Grigo. I don't think his professional debut impressed anyone, but debuting him at all was based on the fact he has talent.

 

Twenty years old. I think he gets there, but I'm not happy that this is already a contract year for him.

[Huckleberry]

Early days for Grigo. I don't think his professional debut impressed anyone, but debuting him at all was based on the fact he has talent.

 

Twenty years old. I think he gets there, but I'm not happy that this is already a contract year for him.

 

yeah they massively ###### that one up, but maybe get him a 4 yr deal ?