bcsaberks Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 The flu shot is not free. You might not have any out of pocket, but trust the pharmas have cost to study, manufacture, and distribute, and health care providers have cost to inventory and administer it, and none are performing those services under "good will". Most of the associated revenue is likely either buried in government subsidy or removed from individual wallets via health insurance. Either way, it costs you. Good marketing by the pharmas, but the primary driver is the media who tee it up every year with their "shortage!" story and "it's been a predicted bad season!". Fear me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 in my examples, she was the exact reason why many of those parents chose not to have their now dead children vaccinated. That woman has blood on her hands. It's this kind of hype that I hate. How old? If they were infants, wouldn't they have been too young to have gotten a flu vaccination anyway? And would the strain they got have been covered by that shot that year? I'm not trying to be a dick, just curious. FTR, my kid has an exemption from the flu shot because she spins around in circles and self injures for the 4 days following a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Dance Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 I've only had the 'real' flu twice in my life and it was wicked both times. The last time was about 20 years ago and I was sick in bed for a week. It then took another two weeks to gain my normal strength back. Real influenza can be a killer. Bio and weave correclty point out that what most people call the "flu" is actually either food-borne or a lesser virus. I've refused the flu shot for the last few years for no other reason than I didn't want the NYS Health Department dictating what I should put in my body (Health care workers must have the vaccine or must wear masks when in a patient care areas.) This year, the Health Department tightened the screws; if you do not have the flu shot, you must wear a mask anytime you are in the hospital, even the cafeteria (unless you are actually eating). I relented and got the shot this year, not because of the state mandate, but because I had a nasty sinus infection this summer and my doctor recommended that I get the shot in case my immune system was still sub-par. About two hours after the shot, I felt achy and tired but a good night's sleep took care of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 It's this kind of hype that I hate. How old? If they were infants, wouldn't they have been too young to have gotten a flu vaccination anyway? And would the strain they got have been covered by that shot that year? I'm not trying to be a dick, just curious. FTR, my kid has an exemption from the flu shot because she spins around in circles and self injures for the 4 days following a shot. It's only not approved for children younger than 6 months. For those younger than 2 it is especially important that they DO get vaccinated because they are at much higher risk for serious influenza complications. Would they have been covered had they got the shot? More than likely. Which leads to another misconception, the notion of the shot providing all or nothing protection is also not true. Even if there is a mismatch between circulating virus and what went into the vaccine you are still going to have some protection against a full blown case of flu. I mentioned in the other thread that there are certainly many good mostly medical reasons not to get the shot, the case with your child being a good example, but concern that the shot might not be fully effective is a very poor reason not to get what is otherwise a risk free procedure for most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 It's this kind of hype that I hate. How old? If they were infants, wouldn't they have been too young to have gotten a flu vaccination anyway? And would the strain they got have been covered by that shot that year? I'm not trying to be a dick, just curious. FTR, my kid has an exemption from the flu shot because she spins around in circles and self injures for the 4 days following a shot. I would imagine you'd get rather prickly about the direction of this convo given what you have to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Ahh, the Jenny McCarthy defense. Yes, we are all basing our decisions on what she says. :wallbash: Can we please stop bringing her up? well, there are potentially valid reasons to bring her ... up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 It's only not approved for children younger than 6 months. For those younger than 2 it is especially important that they DO get vaccinated because they are at much higher risk for serious influenza complications. Would they have been covered had they got the shot? More than likely. Which leads to another misconception, the notion of the shot providing all or nothing protection is also not true. Even if there is a mismatch between circulating virus and what went into the vaccine you are still going to have some protection against a full blown case of flu. I mentioned in the other thread that there are certainly many good mostly medical reasons not to get the shot, the case with your child being a good example, but concern that the shot might not be fully effective is a very poor reason not to get what is otherwise a risk free procedure for most people. I should also add that that was my main reason for getting the shot this year. Having to care for her if she got the flu while having the flu was a pretty scary thought. I would imagine you'd get rather prickly about the direction of this convo given what you have to deal with. Well traveled territory by this point. People think what they think and I'm fine with it. well, there are potentially valid reasons to bring her ... up. YES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 well, there are potentially valid reasons to bring her ... up. Two reasons, but that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Two reasons, but that's it. The fact that she's insane makes her even hotter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 well, there are potentially valid reasons to bring her ... up. Meh...back during her playboy days sure. She has been on Stern a few times recently and she is even annoying when she's talking about her crazy sex life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Meh...back during her playboy days sure. She has been on Stern a few times recently and she is even annoying when she's talking about her crazy sex life. it's the talking that's the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 The fact that she's insane makes her even hotter. Nah, she's still under the Mendoza Diagonal, just out in the top right corner. Relatively hot, *really* crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Nah, she's still under the Mendoza Diagonal, just out in the top right corner. Relatively hot, *really* crazy. Yea the older she gets the more crazy she gets and the less hot she gets. She has strayed across the line and is firmly in crazy territory at this point. Also she has the crazy eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 as i said in the nolan thread: GI viruses and food borne illnesses didn't cause a brutally fatal pandemic at the end of WWI: influenza did. Estimated to have killed up to 50 million people worldwide. Bodies of the dead piled up faster than morgues or undertakers could keep up which caused mass graves in american cities. This pandemic and the devastation it caused is exactly why you hear so much concern about avian flu and swine flu. These are not media or government "scare tactics" as history tells us otherwise. The truly chilling part of the 1918 pandemic is that unlike seasonal flu that largely kills the very young and elderly, this one killed millions upon millions of otherwise healthy 20-40 year old adults. An excellent read written from a mostly non scientific perspective that I recommend highly: The Great Influenza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 So, late to the OT thread. First I apologize to Claude_Verret for taking such a tone in my response in the other thread. It's not a coin flip.. but certainly not the guarantee as the industry makes it. My biggest issues with this vaccination are as follows: 1. My experience with the flu. Two times the shot, two times the flu. Both times were the times I received the shot. As I said elsewhere, I KNOW it does not cause the flu, but it sure as heck didn't prevent it. Meanwhile, in other years I've been pretty healthy. 2. From working in a hospital for so long and fighting the powers that be on the effectiveness of forcing healthcare workers to get a flu shot. In the grand scheme of things it's not all that effective. Even with a flu shot it does not prevent anyone from carrying the virus. It doesn't protect the at-risk patients. Hospitals already have policies that prevent healthcare workers who are exhibiting signs of illness from working with patients. Furthermore, hospitals are high traffic areas that are visited by the sick. There is no shortage of infection. Thorough cleaning is the best defense in a healthcare environment. Of course they drill hand washing into everyone because it really is the most effective means to reduce potential infections. 3. Like many other industries the inter-relations between pharmaceuticals and government is disgusting. I'm not about to trust most of the blanket statements that are made by either. Pharmaceuticals are almost the equivalent of natural resources when it comes to some of the shady dealings. I admit this is a sweeping generalization and it doesn't apply everywhere but there's enough out there to make me question things. 4. The flu shot advertisements are too dramatic. I get that they are trying to hammer home that if you are at high risk you really should consider getting the flue (or if you care for a high risk patient). Still, it bothers me the wrong way and I think it causes people to not think critically about it before just doing it. I don't tell people to ever not get the flu shot. However, I don't believe in blindly following recommendations. My reasons are largely based on my first reason above with the rest falling in line to support it my mindset even more. I believe in being exposed to things. I think people who put themselves at risk are the kind of people who live in a germophobic manner. They are always cleaning, always using hand sanitizer, they reduce their exposure to germs to next to nothing. They always seems to be sick. In fact, I think there was some research done at one point about overuse of hand sanitizer being a an issue. Anyway.. that's just my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Not really sure if I've ever had a full blown flu. I've had strep throat though. That was a bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 So, late to the OT thread. First I apologize to Claude_Verret for taking such a tone in my response in the other thread. It's not a coin flip.. but certainly not the guarantee as the industry makes it. Not a problem, we are just having a discussion. As for the rest of your post, that's your take and I've shared mine and we can leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted November 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Can we get back to JM's boobs please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelo Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 the notion that the public policy of encouraging everyone to get their flu shots is part of some nefarious shadow government/megaladon corporation's efforts to control us or push a product of dubious value is ... well, beyond the realm of rational thought -- straight tinfoil hat stuff. poster claude verret appears to be involved in the industry that manufactures the flu vaccines. for my part, an immediate family member of mine (who has an advanced degree in public health) spent time working in atlanta on pandemic prevention policies. the people responsible for developing these policies are smart and selfless scientists who, oh, just don't want a million people to needlessly drop dead from a nasty strain of the flu. the policy of creating as much herd immunity from influenza is a laudable one because science. i will now wait watchfully for the thread's possibly veering into the anti-vaccination bullspit that morons like jenny mccarthy promulgate. it's tinfoil hat stuff until one of your family members is affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 it's tinfoil hat stuff until one of your family members is affected. No policy, no system, no medicine is perfectly reliable or perfectly safe. But whatever effects people attribute to immunizations (rightly or wrongly), those will pale in comparison to the effects of diluting herd immunity and thereby facilitating the next flu pandemic (or God forbid epidemic). My great-grandmother used to tell stories of the end of WWI and bodies by the 100s of healthy adults piled atop each other -- terrible, terrible stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelo Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 No policy, no system, no medicine is perfectly reliable or perfectly safe. But whatever effects people attribute to immunizations (rightly or wrongly), those will pale in comparison to the effects of diluting herd immunity and thereby facilitating the next flu pandemic (or God forbid epidemic). My great-grandmother used to tell stories of the end of WWI and bodies by the 100s of healthy adults piled atop each other -- terrible, terrible stuff. B.S. (with the greatest respect). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Don't worry....the CDC is a prime target for any wartime scenario. We will have 13 toed radioactive man-bear-pigs eating human brains if anything ever gets too hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Nobody is in it for your health. Vaccines cause virus to evolve at a more rapid pace. Pharm companies are only in it for the money. I'll pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Nobody is in it for your health. Vaccines cause virus to evolve at a more rapid pace. Pharm companies are only in it for the money. I'll pass. These sorts of threads are not without their utility. I will say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Nobody is in it for your health. Vaccines cause virus to evolve at a more rapid pace. Pharm companies are only in it for the money. I'll pass. Trolling? :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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