Luke Adam's Ice Time

[TrueBlueGED]

Lindy broke up what at the time was the most productive line in the NHL. Why? Who cares what Adam was doing on that line? If him being there made Vanek and Pominville score more then he is serving a purpose. It's a team game. Again, why split it up. It just makes no sense.

 

I guess the question is, do you really think they were lighting it up because of Luke Adam? Or was he looking good because of what Vanek and Pominville have done together? It's really no surprise Vanek and Pominville have slowed down, teams learned to completely key on them. As for moving Adam in the first place....if he wasn't contributing to the line and was in fact playing poorly, why not try to get somebody who will contribute? The line would be even better by that logic. Again, I'd try putting Adam back up there because it was working (whatever the exact reason for that). But it would be a desperation move, certainly nothing that Adam has earned with his play.

[darksabre]

 

 

I guess the question is, do you really think they were lighting it up because of Luke Adam? Or was he looking good because of what Vanek and Pominville have done together? It's really no surprise Vanek and Pominville have slowed down, teams learned to completely key on them. As for moving Adam in the first place....if he wasn't contributing to the line and was in fact playing poorly, why not try to get somebody who will contribute? The line would be even better by that logic. Again, I'd try putting Adam back up there because it was working (whatever the exact reason for that). But it would be a desperation move, certainly nothing that Adam has earned with his play.

 

The specific move that was made was to put Leino on that line to try and get him scoring. The demotion of Adam had nothing to do with his play personally. That line should never have been broken up, because it doesn't matter who is feeding who as long as everyone is eating.

[SwampD]

I guess the question is, do you really think they were lighting it up because of Luke Adam? Or was he looking good because of what Vanek and Pominville have done together? It's really no surprise Vanek and Pominville have slowed down, teams learned to completely key on them. As for moving Adam in the first place....if he wasn't contributing to the line and was in fact playing poorly, why not try to get somebody who will contribute? The line would be even better by that logic. Again, I'd try putting Adam back up there because it was working (whatever the exact reason for that). But it would be a desperation move, certainly nothing that Adam has earned with his play.

Just because someone isn't "contributing" on a line doesn't mean that they aren't an asset to that line. Hockey is unlike any other sport that way. I truly believe that chemistry is the single most important factor when putting a line together, even more than skill.

 

I don't remember the game, but there was a replay where I saw a look between Vanek and Adam and Pominville and said there is something special going on with that line.

 

Ruff is a meddler. I think he believes he is bigger than the players, thus our lack of leadership. He just won't allow it. There is no other explanation for why that line hasn't even been given a shift together.

[TrueBlueGED]

The specific move that was made was to put Leino on that line to try and get him scoring. The demotion of Adam had nothing to do with his play personally. That line should never have been broken up, because it doesn't matter who is feeding who as long as everyone is eating.

 

Wasn't he pulled off the line during the 3rd period of the Ottawa game on 11/5 because we were stagnant offensively and Ruff tried to spark something? (which worked, btw) The only time I remember Leino on that line was the first 5 minutes of the Philly debacle, other than that it's been Roy or Hecht in place of Adam.

Just because someone isn't "contributing" on a line doesn't mean that they aren't an asset to that line. Hockey is unlike any other sport that way. I truly believe that chemistry is the single most important factor when putting a line together, even more than skill.

 

I agree on that point, and they clearly had chemistry. Adam wasn't pulled off the line because his offense was a problem, it was his defensive play against upper echelon competition. It's no secret that Ruff wants guys to be responsible in their own end, and values that highly. Sure you can argue that the offense was worth it, or he overvalues defensive responsibility, that's fine. I just don't think it's accurate to say it's impossible to justify removing Adam from the line, you just disagree with the justification.

 

It's really all semantics at this point anyway, what's done is done, and we all agree he should be put back on the line. I just don't think he's come anywhere close to earning the spot.

[SwampD]

I agree on that point, and they clearly had chemistry. Adam wasn't pulled off the line because his offense was a problem, it was his defensive play against upper echelon competition. It's no secret that Ruff wants guys to be responsible in their own end, and values that highly. Sure you can argue that the offense was worth it, or he overvalues defensive responsibility, that's fine. I just don't think it's accurate to say it's impossible to justify removing Adam from the line, you just disagree with the justification.

 

It's really all semantics at this point anyway, what's done is done, and we all agree he should be put back on the line. I just don't think he's come anywhere close to earning the spot.

At this point, I really don't care what Ruff values. If he just wouldn't have removed him there would be no need to justify it. Even the few things that have worked under Ruff, he has tried to fix anyway.

[Who Else?]

Wasn't he pulled off the line during the 3rd period of the Ottawa game on 11/5 because we were stagnant offensively and Ruff tried to spark something? (which worked, btw) The only time I remember Leino on that line was the first 5 minutes of the Philly debacle, other than that it's been Roy or Hecht in place of Adam.

 

I agree on that point, and they clearly had chemistry. Adam wasn't pulled off the line because his offense was a problem, it was his defensive play against upper echelon competition. It's no secret that Ruff wants guys to be responsible in their own end, and values that highly. Sure you can argue that the offense was worth it, or he overvalues defensive responsibility, that's fine. I just don't think it's accurate to say it's impossible to justify removing Adam from the line, you just disagree with the justification.

 

It's really all semantics at this point anyway, what's done is done, and we all agree he should be put back on the line. I just don't think he's come anywhere close to earning the spot.

 

Isn't being put on a line with Pomminstein and Vanek a perfect spot to put a center who needs to improve his defensive game?

 

After all Pomminstein is one of the better 2-way forwards in the league and Ruff has supposedly molded Vanek into one.

 

So put Hecht there and leave another line that can use a defensive center-wing empty.

 

The real question is, why will Lindy use everyother line combo but this one? At this point I wouldn't be surpriced if a D-man centered this line before Adam does again.

[LTS]

I guess the question is, do you really think they were lighting it up because of Luke Adam? Or was he looking good because of what Vanek and Pominville have done together? It's really no surprise Vanek and Pominville have slowed down, teams learned to completely key on them. As for moving Adam in the first place....if he wasn't contributing to the line and was in fact playing poorly, why not try to get somebody who will contribute? The line would be even better by that logic. Again, I'd try putting Adam back up there because it was working (whatever the exact reason for that). But it would be a desperation move, certainly nothing that Adam has earned with his play.

 

I saw Adam at least put a body on people, something other players aren't doing. He's moving his feet too. Frankly I feel that he's not being given enough time to actually show what he can do and given how poorly everyone else on the team is doing I see no reason to NOT give him more time now.

 

Just because someone isn't "contributing" on a line doesn't mean that they aren't an asset to that line. Hockey is unlike any other sport that way. I truly believe that chemistry is the single most important factor when putting a line together, even more than skill.

 

I don't remember the game, but there was a replay where I saw a look between Vanek and Adam and Pominville and said there is something special going on with that line.

 

Ruff is a meddler. I think he believes he is bigger than the players, thus our lack of leadership. He just won't allow it. There is no other explanation for why that line hasn't even been given a shift together.

 

I'm not going to say what Ruff believes but the meddling point is spot on. He's always messed with lines.

 

Isn't being put on a line with Pomminstein and Vanek a perfect spot to put a center who needs to improve his defensive game?

 

After all Pomminstein is one of the better 2-way forwards in the league and Ruff has supposedly molded Vanek into one.

 

So put Hecht there and leave another line that can use a defensive center-wing empty.

 

The real question is, why will Lindy use everyother line combo but this one? At this point I wouldn't be surpriced if a D-man centered this line before Adam does again.

 

Well put. Let Hecht anchor Stafford and Gerbe. Let Stafford and Gerbe push up the ice and have Hecht be responsible. There are things he hasn't tried yet. There are a few times this year when Ruff has tried different line combinations (really different) and he changed them back in less than 10 minutes. That's worse than an NFL coach who loves the passing game abandoning the run game after two straight negative gains.

 

Perhaps the All-star break will be good for this team. They aren't going to the playoffs... but signs of life would be nice.

[Who Else?]

Did anyone watch Adam's pregame interview last night?

 

When Adam mumbled he was going to add energy tonight in the most mundane way, I lost control of my pretzels.

 

I don't know how to move clips on here, but if someone could post that interview I'd be much obliged.

[LTS]

Good for him. I didn't see it as my direcTV box had flaked out and was resetting.

 

I'd love to see him start speaking up and leading.. the team needs something. I would understand if he'd wanted to but as a rookie was sitting idly by and being "respectful". Of course at this point in time he might as well say screw that and speak his mind. I still don't mind his style of play and his effort.

[TrueBlueGED]

This Luke Adam love affair needs to end. Moves his feet? Lays a body? Yea, maybe once every 6 games like Stafford. His play away from the puck is as bad as every other lazy player this forum complains about in every thread. If he was doing all the things people say he is, working so hard and had so much ability, he'd have more than 0 points in 15 games and 1 in 20. He's averaging about 13 minutes per night over this stretch, so it's not like he's getting 5 minutes of ice time. If his last name were Roy or Stafford, he'd be getting hated on as much as those players do.

 

Good for him. I didn't see it as my direcTV box had flaked out and was resetting.

 

I'd love to see him start speaking up and leading.. the team needs something. I would understand if he'd wanted to but as a rookie was sitting idly by and being "respectful". Of course at this point in time he might as well say screw that and speak his mind. I still don't mind his style of play and his effort.

 

I think you missed the point....he said it in "the most mundane way." AKA he was as lifeless as anybody else, he was just an empty robot saying what fans want. No emotion or leadership behind it.

[qwksndmonster]

This Luke Adam love affair needs to end. Moves his feet? Lays a body? Yea, maybe once every 6 games like Stafford. His play away from the puck is as bad as every other lazy player this forum complains about in every thread. If he was doing all the things people say he is, working so hard and had so much ability, he'd have more than 0 points in 15 games and 1 in 20. He's averaging about 13 minutes per night over this stretch, so it's not like he's getting 5 minutes of ice time. If his last name were Roy or Stafford, he'd be getting hated on as much as those players do.

The difference is that Luker is still a rookie. Stafford and Roy have been here for years, and most people here are tired of their schtick. There is still hope for Luker.

[TrueBlueGED]

The difference is that Luker is still a rookie. Stafford and Roy have been here for years, and most people here are tired of their schtick. There is still hope for Luker.

 

Oh I agree that's the difference, and I have a lot of hope that Luke turns into a really good #2 center. But people talk about him RIGHT NOW like he's been great, or a huge difference maker, and it just isn't the case. He's still new, he's fresh, he's different, hasn't been around forever, has potential....these are all psychological reasons he doesn't get ragged on. And I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on him. I just think he gets way too hyped up at this point in time because of who he isn't, as opposed to who he is.

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

At this point I guess we seem to lose no matter who plays where, so from that viewpoint I can sort of understand that moving Adam back to the top line wouldn't hurt. That is also the only reason that makes any sense. Right now Luke Adam is one of the absolute worst players on the team and if we had anything resembling center debt he should have been in Rochester three months ago.

[Weave]

Oh I agree that's the difference, and I have a lot of hope that Luke turns into a really good #2 center. But people talk about him RIGHT NOW like he's been great, or a huge difference maker, and it just isn't the case. He's still new, he's fresh, he's different, hasn't been around forever, has potential....these are all psychological reasons he doesn't get ragged on. And I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on him. I just think he gets way too hyped up at this point in time because of who he isn't, as opposed to who he is.

 

Noone is saying that he is great or a huge difference maker. They are pointing out that Vanek and Pommer were hottest with Adam at center. Given that now Vanek and Pommer have stopped scoring it seems rather reasonable to reunite the line that got those two going to begin with.

[RazielSabre]

I'd put him on the top line. Hopefully he starts producing and at least we might get a shot at some success this season :(.

 

The point is it really can't be any worse!

[K-9]

Oh I agree that's the difference, and I have a lot of hope that Luke turns into a really good #2 center. But people talk about him RIGHT NOW like he's been great, or a huge difference maker, and it just isn't the case. He's still new, he's fresh, he's different, hasn't been around forever, has potential....these are all psychological reasons he doesn't get ragged on. And I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on him. I just think he gets way too hyped up at this point in time because of who he isn't, as opposed to who he is.

 

Well said. Agree entirely. Our disdain for underperforming veterans has clouded our vision of what a struggling rookie with potential is anymore.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Who Else?]

I'd put him on the top line. Hopefully he starts producing and at least we might get a shot at some success this season :(.

 

The point is it really can't be any worse!

 

I'm ready to send him to Rochester. Let the kid know what it feels like to win. Hell let him know what it is like to play.

Don't even wait for some bodies to come back. Bring up someone just to send him down.

Even though i believe he probably is NHL ready, Truth is he has not played that well.

I would really like to see him given another chance with Vanek and Pomminstein, but will Lindy swallow his pride and do it?

[Patty16]

I'm ready to send him to Rochester. Let the kid know what it feels like to win. Hell let him know what it is like to play.

Don't even wait for some bodies to come back. Bring up someone just to send him down.

Even though i believe he probably is NHL ready, Truth is he has not played that well.

I would really like to see him given another chance with Vanek and Pomminstein, but will Lindy swallow his pride and do it?

 

I agree although sending Kassian down hasnt done much for his game. Sounds like he might be a headcase. SOunds more like a Shmelik than a bruiser.

[waldo]

Noone is saying that he is great or a huge difference maker. They are pointing out that Vanek and Pommer were hottest with Adam at center. Given that now Vanek and Pommer have stopped scoring it seems rather reasonable to reunite the line that got those two going to begin with.

 

Why do you think they have stopped scoring ?

[That Aud Smell]

for whatever it's worth, i resurrect GoDD's content re: how lindy was treating adam at development camp (~1:25 mark):

 

http://forums.sabres...997#entry304997

 

 

i've said before that i think ghost goes off the rez with the inferences he draws and analogies he makes (and he eventually did with this one (see post #76)), but ... of late, i find myself drawn back to his thoughts on the subject.

 

p.s. where'd the button go that allows us to embed youtube vids?

[spndnchz]

If there ever was a reason to fire Ruff it would be this. :wacko:

 

I'm sure Torts doesn't touch his players.

[That Aud Smell]

If there ever was a reason to fire Ruff it would be this. :wacko:

 

I'm sure Torts doesn't touch his players.

 

with apologies to jerry mathers, leave it to the believer.

 

:P

 

i dunno. whether that specific incident was relevant to the discussion or not, the larger issue being discussed in that thread is one that appears valid: does lindy unduly "break" his young talent? i've wondered that, not so much with adam, but with kassian.

[TrueBlueGED]

 

So I decided to estimate some very basic models to examine the impact that Adam has had on Vanek and Pominville. The results are above. Data were taken from ESPN's player stats page, using the game log. The models themselves were estimated using the statistical package Stata. I accounted for both even strength and overall production because I'm not sure how often Adam was with them on the top power play unit. The variable "Adam Present" is a simple dummy variable representing whether or not Adam played with them during a game. If Luke Adam has an impact on Vanek and Pominville's production, we should see that variable have a positive coefficient with a p-value of LESS than 0.05. This would signify that we can be 95% certain that the positive impact of Adam's presence was not due to chance, and it actually had a causal influence. If the p-value is greater than 0.05, then the coefficient becomes meaningless.

 

So what do we see? The first table is the most basic model, is simply the bivariate relationship between Vanek and Pominville's combined production with Adam's presence. Simply put, there is no effect. Adam's presence comes close to achieving statistical significance in the even strength model, but even then the R²of 0.06 indicates that the model only explains 6% of the variance in Vanek and Pominville's production.

 

The second and third tables show us the influence on Vanek and Pominville's scoring, controlling for the other winger's production. For starters, it is clear that Vanek and Pominville have a huge influence on one another...when one of them is scoring, the other one probably is too. The coefficients are large and positive. On the other hand, once again Adam is shown to have absolutely no influence, except for the model on Vanek's even strength production. Here Adam's presence is associated with roughly .38 more points per game for Vanek. Before anybody gets too excited, compare this to Pominville's influence, and Adam is about 1/5 as important. Also, considering that are 6 different models, and Adam's presence is only significant in 1 of them, it seems clear that there are other potential explanations for the results of that single model.

 

In conclusion, I should stress these are very basic and do not control for anything such as defensive intensity, offensive zone time, scoring chances, etc. If I had to guess, adding in other control variables would probably make Adam insignificant across the board, particularly if I had a way to account for the streakiness Vanek has shown over the course of his entire career. Basically Vanek and Pominville produce because they're great together, and can get it done regardless of the center on their line.

 

Edit: Couldn't get the tables to paste in properly, so had to use a screenshot of them. Anyway, have at it.

[TrueBlueGED]

If there ever was a reason to fire Ruff it would be this. :wacko:

 

I'm sure Torts doesn't touch his players.

 

Not sure if you're serious or sarcastic, but I assure you, he juggles lines all the time. I know this because my best friend is a die hard Ranger fan, and complaint #1 is changing lines. Go read some Rangers forums if you don't believe me.

[dEnnis the Menace]

Not sure if you're serious or sarcastic, but I assure you, he juggles lines all the time. I know this because my best friend is a die hard Ranger fan, and complaint #1 is changing lines. Go read some Rangers forums if you don't believe me.

 

she's being sarcastic, referring to the point in the video (it was brought up originally in August or September I think) where Luke Adam gets a few love taps to the helmet from Lindy as Lindy is explaining stick control to the young players. I'd suggest going back and skimming over the thread to get an idea of what was said and what-not. DO a search for Lindy Ruff. The thread should be easy to find, and LGR was the one who originally uploaded the vid IIRC.