LTS Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've been battling in the forums about whether it's appropriate to fire Ruff/Regier right now. I've been saying that we need to give some time... I think the article on Adam's ice time has put me over the edge. It's funny how sometimes you just don't realize the amount of time someone is on the ice or where that relates to the team overall. I've known Adam has been skating on different lines but I never paid attention to the ice time. Player Goals Assists +/- Shots Shot % TOI Avg. Shifts Luke Adam 10 10 -2 74 13.5 13:00 17.3 Derek Roy 8 16 -4 90 8.9 18:46 22.3 Drew Stafford 7 15 -3 111 6.3 18:00 21.8 Jochen Hecht 4 3 +3 34 11.8 17:16 22.9 I neglected to put GP in there, Adam has played all 42 games (as has Pominville and Vanek, the only players to make all the games), Roy has 40, Stafford 41, and Hecht 16. Unless we are attempting "showcase" Derek Roy there's no explanation as to why he is getting this ice time. The showcasing is not going well because every team on the planet is getting to see Derek Roy an extra 5 minutes per night and in those 5 minutes he's not doing anything. Hell, other than Pominville (19+ mins) Derek Roy and Stafford are the only other forwards w/ 18 or more minutes on the ice. If you look at points per shift (points/ (avg. shifts/game * games played )) you'd end up with: Adam: .0275 Roy: .0269 Stafford : .024 Hecht: .019 The article seems to point to Adam's defensive liabilities and references the 6-2 loss in Boston (where the entire team was sleeping). Adam was a -4, worst on the team. Myers and Sekera were a -3, and Gragnani and Stafford were -2, Roy -1. Of course Adam had an assist and Roy and Stafford were 0's on the score sheet. I mention Myers and Gragnani because Gragnani leads the team in +/- right now (by a lot) and was a minus in that game and Myers is supposed to be the shutdown guy and had a bad night. Adam had a bad game and has been relegated? BS. I'm fine with dumping the coach and GM now unless someone wants to try and sell me on "showcasing" Roy. Get Adam back on a line with some scoring talent (first line is fine by me). Get him off the wing (stupid, we need centers and Ruff has him at wing now). I'm pretty disgusted.. both with the situation and with myself for not having noticed this.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielSabre Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I think trading Roy, firing Regier/Ruff is really the only course of action now. Two seasons of crap starts in a row plus the mess our salaries are in. Not to mention the lines, no no.1 center, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 ES Points / min TOI Pominville 0.044 Vanek 0.042 Szczechura 0.039 Adam 0.037 Roy 0.032 Gerbe 0.030 Stafford 0.029 Hecht 0.025 Kassian 0.023 Note: Luke Adam is #1 in ES Goals / min TOI with 0.022. Vanek is #2 with 0.019. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielSabre Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Most worrying stat for me is that Vanek and Pom are both at around a PPG, but in third is Roy with 24 points. Regarding Adam he does seem to be performing well considering his only at 13:00 ATOI. I do wonder what happens in Lindys head sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcsaberks Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 ES Points / min TOI Pominville 0.044 Vanek 0.042 Szczechura 0.039 Adam 0.037 Roy 0.032 Gerbe 0.030 Stafford 0.029 Hecht 0.025 Kassian 0.023 Note: Luke Adam is #1 in ES Goals / min TOI with 0.022. Vanek is #2 with 0.019. I conclude that Szczechura should be recalled and given an "A". :P I've been battling in the forums about whether it's appropriate to fire Ruff/Regier right now. I've been saying that we need to give some time... I think the article on Adam's ice time has put me over the edge. It's funny how sometimes you just don't realize the amount of time someone is on the ice or where that relates to the team overall. I've known Adam has been skating on different lines but I never paid attention to the ice time. I neglected to put GP in there, Adam has played all 42 games (as has Pominville and Vanek, the only players to make all the games), Roy has 40, Stafford 41, and Hecht 16. Unless we are attempting "showcase" Derek Roy there's no explanation as to why he is getting this ice time. The showcasing is not going well because every team on the planet is getting to see Derek Roy an extra 5 minutes per night and in those 5 minutes he's not doing anything. Hell, other than Pominville (19+ mins) Derek Roy and Stafford are the only other forwards w/ 18 or more minutes on the ice. If you look at points per shift (points/ (avg. shifts/game * games played )) you'd end up with: Adam: .0275 Roy: .0269 Stafford : .024 Hecht: .019 The article seems to point to Adam's defensive liabilities and references the 6-2 loss in Boston (where the entire team was sleeping). Adam was a -4, worst on the team. Myers and Sekera were a -3, and Gragnani and Stafford were -2, Roy -1. Of course Adam had an assist and Roy and Stafford were 0's on the score sheet. I mention Myers and Gragnani because Gragnani leads the team in +/- right now (by a lot) and was a minus in that game and Myers is supposed to be the shutdown guy and had a bad night. Adam had a bad game and has been relegated? BS. I'm fine with dumping the coach and GM now unless someone wants to try and sell me on "showcasing" Roy. Get Adam back on a line with some scoring talent (first line is fine by me). Get him off the wing (stupid, we need centers and Ruff has him at wing now). I'm pretty disgusted.. both with the situation and with myself for not having noticed this.. Roy is on the PK right? Adam not? There's a couple minutes. And Adam's play has taken a step back over the past 4 - 6 weeks. Dude was flying out of the gates, but he's a rookie. He has 1 points over the last 15 games. Gaustad-esque. Look at Kassian's play in comparison, came out flying, tapered off, now he's re-grouping. ZK could only maintain it for 2 weeks. So props to Adam for a solid first 2 months. I'm on board with Roy as the locker room cancer, but dude remains our #1 center right? He should be leading the forwards in TOI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannustyrannus Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I can't believe that not even once since October has Adam been on the Top Line. He was leading the League in rookie scoring and we were WINNING and Ruff took him off that line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who Else? Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I can't believe that not even once since October has Adam been on the Top Line. He was leading the League in rookie scoring and we were WINNING and Ruff took him off that line. I just want to know why Ruff will try any line combination but that one again. It reminds me of Drury's last year and a half, when Ruff kept putting rookies on his line and everybody else with one exception, Jason Pomminstein I see it as just plain stubbornness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannustyrannus Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I just want to know why Ruff will try any line combination but that one again. It reminds me of Drury's last year and a half, when Ruff kept putting rookies on his line and everybody else with one exception, Jason Pomminstein I see it as just plain stubbornness. you can't be stubborn while you are losing. he's got to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NNYSABRESMAN Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Been beating this drum for 3 yrs. now. Lindy is an idiot and needs to go. Not our only problem but a huge part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_Dudley Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 The coaching issue seems to standout to me more every week. We have a coach here playing wings at center and center's at wing. Adam's stated "I like center. It's my natural position," Adam said. "Obviously, center in the NHL is different than center at the AHL or junior. You've got to be able to commit down low and this year I've been better at supporting the puck in my own end, battling down low and becoming a more complete center." Gee coach maybe playing him out of position has more to do with his production than ice time. Then of course there is Leino playing center when he is publically stated and shown playing on the ice he is more comfortable at wing. And then ther is Hecht a career winger we have made a center the last few years. Comeon Lindy let's be real innovative and play grags at center, he is big he skates well and good with the puck, why not right ? Problems scorring, Sheesh, yeah it's the hockey gods that got some curse on them and they aren't getting the bounces right, Sorry Alex but I'll take ridiculous coaching for $100 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I conclude that Szczechura should be recalled and given an "A". :P Roy is on the PK right? Adam not? There's a couple minutes. And Adam's play has taken a step back over the past 4 - 6 weeks. Dude was flying out of the gates, but he's a rookie. He has 1 points over the last 15 games. Gaustad-esque. Look at Kassian's play in comparison, came out flying, tapered off, now he's re-grouping. ZK could only maintain it for 2 weeks. So props to Adam for a solid first 2 months. I'm on board with Roy as the locker room cancer, but dude remains our #1 center right? He should be leading the forwards in TOI. I actually think letting Szczechura play would be a good thing at this point in time. He's another guy who was at least skating hard and he seemed to find the right places at times. Roy is on the PK and yes that counts in terms of shifts and time on ice where you most likely are not scoring. Roy also plays on a line with other scorers and Adam does not. When you are on the ice with McCormick and Ellis your PPG are going to go down. Most of Adam's points came when skating with Vanek/Pominville and Kassian/Leino. Not coincidentally Kassian's PPG dropped when split from Adam and the loss of Leino too. My point is that he's no worse than the veterans who are expected to score.. let the dude play. The Sabres are almost in the basement anyway. I can't believe that not even once since October has Adam been on the Top Line. He was leading the League in rookie scoring and we were WINNING and Ruff took him off that line. He does that in an attempt to get other guys going. So he put Roy up there for awhile, didn't help too much. That's a huge problem I have with Ruff, his inability to keep lines together, even in the past when there were far less injuries. The article even stated that Adam is playing on a different line in practice but will probably go back to 4th line in the game.. WHAT? BTW: I've tried a few different ways of making the data in the original post look more presentable and the forum software keeps killing me. Is there a good way to make a table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrico Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I was pretty upset as well after reading that article. Almost every game I'll say to my wife (who is barely paying attention) 'nice play Adam' or great effort. His production has dropped and maybe it's because the lack of ice time. I thought he's played real well this season. We can't score goals right now. May as well put our most effective line back together of Vanek Pom and Adam. Our defensive play has not been good anyways but atleast this line was putting the puck in the net on a regular basis earlier in the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 My point is that he's no worse than the veterans who are expected to score.. let the dude play. The Sabres are almost in the basement anyway. This is where I am at. I say it should apply for Kassian too. Adam and Kassian are going to be fixtures in the NHL. I don't see any harm in bringing them up and putting them on a 2nd or 3rd line together. I think it is pretty obvious that the team needs to be in rebuild mode. Let's get it started by playing the kids we'll be building around. They sure as hell aren't going to be any less effective than Roy is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_Dudley Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 This is where I am at. I say it should apply for Kassian too. Adam and Kassian are going to be fixtures in the NHL. I don't see any harm in bringing them up and putting them on a 2nd or 3rd line together. I think it is pretty obvious that the team needs to be in rebuild mode. Let's get it started by playing the kids we'll be building around. They sure as hell aren't going to be any less effective than Roy is right now. Ahh but is that really the question we should be asking or should it be; Where will they actually be made a better player/coached up more ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Ahh but is that really the question we should be asking or should it be; Where will they actually be made a better player/coached up more ? Obviously I'm not paid to evaluate such things but what I have seen/read of Kassian in the AHL leads me to believe that he is ready to be developed here. I think the trick is to put guys like him and Adam in situations that aren't "weight of the world" type situations. He doesn't need to have the pressure of being the savior so he can develop on the 2nd or 3rd line and make his mistakes while playing agianst the other teams' 3rd line players. And I'll admit, the other part of my thought process involves jealousy. I see guys like Nugent-Hopkins, Couturier, and Landeskog getting the commitment from their teams to start their NHL development now and I wonder why a guy like Kassian, who has shown that he can play well among men, isn't get the same opportunity here and now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_Dudley Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Obviously I'm not paid to evaluate such things but what I have seen/read of Kassian in the AHL leads me to believe that he is ready to be developed here. I think the trick is to put guys like him and Adam in situations that aren't "weight of the world" type situations. He doesn't need to have the pressure of being the savior so he can develop on the 2nd or 3rd line and make his mistakes while playing agianst the other teams' 3rd line players. And I'll admit, the other part of my thought process involves jealousy. I see guys like Nugent-Hopkins, Couturier, and Landeskog getting the commitment from their teams to start their NHL development now and I wonder why a guy like Kassian, who has shown that he can play well among men, isn't get the same opportunity here and now. All good points and I defintely agree withe the premise however my rub is I am not sure Lindy is the guy I want further developing them e.g. Lindy making Kassian a center . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Obviously I'm not paid to evaluate such things but what I have seen/read of Kassian in the AHL leads me to believe that he is ready to be developed here. I think the trick is to put guys like him and Adam in situations that aren't "weight of the world" type situations. He doesn't need to have the pressure of being the savior so he can develop on the 2nd or 3rd line and make his mistakes while playing agianst the other teams' 3rd line players. And I'll admit, the other part of my thought process involves jealousy. I see guys like Nugent-Hopkins, Couturier, and Landeskog getting the commitment from their teams to start their NHL development now and I wonder why a guy like Kassian, who has shown that he can play well among men, isn't get the same opportunity here and now. Spending over $650,000 on call ups doesn't help the matter. Sabres only have about $100,000 left to the cap. One of the reasons we'll probably see Grags stay up (besides his waiver status) over McNabb when the D gets full-on healthy. That is, unless you trade a player away for another that has a cap hit lower than the one you traded away. This could leave you some room to keep McNabb up. If this happened you would be over the roster limit and have to send someone down. Ellis? He would need to clear waivers but his AHL salary next year may turn a few teams off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Maybe this is a good time to reintroduce this clip.....starting at 1:05 in........ Now that I can't get a -350 in a thread..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Maybe this is a good time to reintroduce this clip.....starting at 1:05 in........ Now that I can't get a -350 in a thread..... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPiC22gNjoM&feature=player_embedded#![/media] I had a feeling this would resurface. :doh: Are you trying to reintroduce your ridiculous opinion (yes my opinion is that yours is ridiculous) that Lindy Ruff is abusive to his players? Tell me if this thread takes a different turn than the first time it got introduced. And this in no way explains Luke Adam's dropoff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I had a feeling this would resurface. :doh: Are you trying to reintroduce your ridiculous opinion (yes my opinion is that yours is ridiculous) that Lindy Ruff is abusive to his players? Tell me if this thread takes a different turn than the first time it got introduced. And this in no way explains Luke Adam's dropoff... I'd just like to see if anyone has a slightly different view given this thread started with questions on Adam and moved to Kassian, and where the team is. I'm not picking a fight. In fact I have heard enough from Black now that my hopes of any quick turnaround are dashed and I am not wasting any more time on getting frustrated. Plenty of other passions to focus all of my energy on instead of wasting time trying to rekindle my love of this hockey team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've been battling in the forums about whether it's appropriate to fire Ruff/Regier right now. I've been saying that we need to give some time... I think the article on Adam's ice time has put me over the edge. It's funny how sometimes you just don't realize the amount of time someone is on the ice or where that relates to the team overall. I've known Adam has been skating on different lines but I never paid attention to the ice time. Unless we are attempting "showcase" Derek Roy there's no explanation as to why he is getting this ice time. The showcasing is not going well because every team on the planet is getting to see Derek Roy an extra 5 minutes per night and in those 5 minutes he's not doing anything. Hell, other than Pominville (19+ mins) Derek Roy and Stafford are the only other forwards w/ 18 or more minutes on the ice. The article seems to point to Adam's defensive liabilities and references the 6-2 loss in Boston (where the entire team was sleeping). Adam was a -4, worst on the team. Myers and Sekera were a -3, and Gragnani and Stafford were -2, Roy -1. Of course Adam had an assist and Roy and Stafford were 0's on the score sheet. I mention Myers and Gragnani because Gragnani leads the team in +/- right now (by a lot) and was a minus in that game and Myers is supposed to be the shutdown guy and had a bad night. Adam had a bad game and has been relegated? BS. I'm fine with dumping the coach and GM now unless someone wants to try and sell me on "showcasing" Roy. Get Adam back on a line with some scoring talent (first line is fine by me). Get him off the wing (stupid, we need centers and Ruff has him at wing now). I'm pretty disgusted.. both with the situation and with myself for not having noticed this.. Obviously I'm not paid to evaluate such things but what I have seen/read of Kassian in the AHL leads me to believe that he is ready to be developed here. I think the trick is to put guys like him and Adam in situations that aren't "weight of the world" type situations. He doesn't need to have the pressure of being the savior so he can develop on the 2nd or 3rd line and make his mistakes while playing agianst the other teams' 3rd line players. And I'll admit, the other part of my thought process involves jealousy. I see guys like Nugent-Hopkins, Couturier, and Landeskog getting the commitment from their teams to start their NHL development now and I wonder why a guy like Kassian, who has shown that he can play well among men, isn't get the same opportunity here and now. Gents -- I fear that your unhappiness with the overall situation may be coloring your views on Adam and Kassian. Lindy and Darcy certainly aren't the only coach/GM who believe that ice time has to be earned, especially with young players. I would guess that just about every coach and GM feels the same way. This is Kassian's first year as a pro. He's certainly shown flashes, but there have been plenty of games in which he hasn't shown anything. The same is more or less true of Adam -- and he had a full season in the A to learn the pro game. I think it's just a fact of life when it comes to young players -- in most cases, they take time to mature into good pros, and trying to rush the process generally does more harm than good, both for their individual development and for the team. Maybe this is a good time to reintroduce this clip.....starting at 1:05 in........ Now that I can't get a -350 in a thread..... Of course, didn't this somewhat-less-than-Penn-State-type abuse take place just before Luker started the season like he was shot out of a cannon? So maybe Lindy's methods of coaching him and getting him ready for the season actually worked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who Else? Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Gents -- I fear that your unhappiness with the overall situation may be coloring your views on Adam and Kassian. Lindy and Darcy certainly aren't the only coach/GM who believe that ice time has to be earned, especially with young players. I would guess that just about every coach and GM feels the same way. This is Kassian's first year as a pro. He's certainly shown flashes, but there have been plenty of games in which he hasn't shown anything. The same is more or less true of Adam -- and he had a full season in the A to learn the pro game. I think it's just a fact of life when it comes to young players -- in most cases, they take time to mature into good pros, and trying to rush the process generally does more harm than good, both for their individual development and for the team. I fully agree with this when it comes to Kassian. Adam on the other hand proved he can play with Pommiville and Vanek and be productive in his own right. He got pulled off when his numbers went down, however were those numbers any worse than Hecht's, Chewie's and Roy's in the same position? As mentioned Adam already spent a tear in the A, if he is going to develop as a center here, he can't be playing wing onthe fourth line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Gents -- I fear that your unhappiness with the overall situation may be coloring your views on Adam and Kassian. Lindy and Darcy certainly aren't the only coach/GM who believe that ice time has to be earned, especially with young players. I would guess that just about every coach and GM feels the same way. This is Kassian's first year as a pro. He's certainly shown flashes, but there have been plenty of games in which he hasn't shown anything. The same is more or less true of Adam -- and he had a full season in the A to learn the pro game. I think it's just a fact of life when it comes to young players -- in most cases, they take time to mature into good pros, and trying to rush the process generally does more harm than good, both for their individual development and for the team. Of course, didn't this somewhat-less-than-Penn-State-type abuse take place just before Luker started the season like he was shot out of a cannon? So maybe Lindy's methods of coaching him and getting him ready for the season actually worked? Good enough to make the All Star Rookie list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Spending over $650,000 on call ups doesn't help the matter. Sabres only have about $100,000 left to the cap. One of the reasons we'll probably see Grags stay up (besides his waiver status) over McNabb when the D gets full-on healthy. That is, unless you trade a player away for another that has a cap hit lower than the one you traded away. This could leave you some room to keep McNabb up. If this happened you would be over the roster limit and have to send someone down. Ellis? He would need to clear waivers but his AHL salary next year may turn a few teams off. I think we have a winner here! As nice as it is to spend all the way up to the cap, it can get you in trouble if/when injuries come in to play and you need to call up replacements. (After watching Darcy work this last offseason, I am thinking Golisano and Quin had the right idea keeping him "shackled") Until the Sabres start dumping salaries, theres not much space under the cap to keep guys up from the AHL. And Lindy can only work with whats given to him. I understand what Lindy does with the lines, he has been trying to get players going by moving them up with a better line, or moving some down to try and spark a line thats struggling. They want a balanced attack like they had previously, not just one scoring line and 3 struggling. Shut down the top line and then you shut down the team. Theres just too many players on this team that need to be moved and players to be changed to turn this around. I bet if you looked at most teams and coaches, Lindy probably has the lowest turnover in players over his tenure here then any other coach. Every year, the top 6 have been pretty much the same, with changes coming to the 3rd and 4th lines. The top 6 of this team contains maybe 1-2 players that would be considered top talent on any other team. This team lacks top tier talent in its forwards As for the Centre issue, It was Regier who ran out to overpay a winger to come be his big Centre pickup this offseason, and the team lacks so much depth at C that they have had to use Hecht as one because they have no one else. Adams starter out hot this season, but he, like many rookies has slowed down. Lindy can only work with what he is given I fully agree with this when it comes to Kassian. Adam on the other hand proved he can play with Pommiville and Vanek and be productive in his own right. He got pulled off when his numbers went down, however were those numbers any worse than Hecht's, Chewie's and Roy's in the same position? As mentioned Adam already spent a tear in the A, if he is going to develop as a center here, he can't be playing wing onthe fourth line. But those guys have all shown that they can play at the NHL level and have had some successAdam is still a rookie who had a quick start, he hasn't proven anything at the pro level yet and this is a good way to see what the kid is made of and what type of player he is. Will he play/work harder to get back to the top line, or continue to struggle? it will also show if his numbers and play were better because of his linemates, or did he help make his linemates better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCBuffalo Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I think Adam looked better on the TOp line then Hecht does with pommi and vanek, just saying. Also, he was playing well with kassian and leino, but Ruff is like a blender mixing everything up not letting things develop and it pisses me off! Go Sabres......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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