Friedman believes changes are coming to Sabres Front Office; UPL Available?

[Flashsabre]

53 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

If they are making bigger changes, why do nothing now? Who's not available now they would want later? 

I just don't buy the "they're waiting to see who's available" when if that were the case, they'd have fired Adams or moved him already. Letting him make decisions at this point would be insane if you're moving on. I'll bet Ruff picks players and Adams is supposed to acquire them. They aren't hiring external front office staff. 

Then they are done. If Pegula is content with not making the playoffs in 14 years then I’m speechless.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

The funny thing is they saved up all this space to sign Peterka, Byram, Quinn and Levi this summer with the thought they were going to have broken out by now and they were going to need the room.

Then they pivoted (unless I see another shoe drop, I’d say panicked) to re-signing Greenway and Zucker with a chunk of that space, meaning they have to make trades or run it back.

Adams thought he was being prudent, then he kinda wasted all that prudence in 2 risky signings.

Their histories say it’s unlikely Zucker and Greenway combine for the 70 middle-six points and special team success they’re being paid for. Adding the odds of Norris earning his paycheque to that mix, McLeod repeating a career year, and Benson, Quinn and/or Kulich taking a step, and that’s a lot of question marks.

Don't know that "panicked" is the right word for it, but they definitely pivoted and IMHO it was at Ruff's direction.  And personally expect them to get older this off-season (and not just in the "well Benson will be twenty when the season starts" version).  The concern is that they end up trading away guys like Peterka and Byram because they'll have significant value on the trade market (and guys like Samuelsson and Quinn won't have that sort of value) but that the guys they get back will still have large flaws of their own; just different ones.  

Re-signing Greenway and Zucker has Ruff's fingerprints all over it.  He needs vets that understand how to play within structure to both show the kids how to do it and to get them to buy into it.  And once again, the Sabres will be revamping the idea of what they're trying to build and how they're trying to build it.

Counting all the changes in "how" they're trying to build the team; depending upon what people consider to be a true change in direction, this'll be at least the 5th philopsophical change and arguably the 7th or even the 8th.  (And they've still only had 4 GMs (to date, hopefully that changes in the next few days) in their entire tenure as owners.)

[7+6=13]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

If it takes trading a player to get a player that makes your roster better then who would be against that? 

I'd imagine the team you're trying to trade with, to get their better player.

[JohnC]

25 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

I'd imagine the team you're trying to trade with, to get their better player.

Teams have different perspectives on players and trades. A player that we might value more on another team's roster could turn out to be a player that another team values less on their roster due to contract considerations and replacement players they have on their roster and within their system. In addition, trades more often than not involve players, prospects and draft picks. So a trade doesn't have to be simply one player for another. 

Edited 19 hours ago by JohnC

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

If they are making bigger changes, why do nothing now? Who's not available now they would want later? 

I just don't buy the "they're waiting to see who's available" when if that were the case, they'd have fired Adams or moved him already. Letting him make decisions at this point would be insane if you're moving on. I'll bet Ruff picks players and Adams is supposed to acquire them. They aren't hiring external front office staff. 

Adams has soured his reputation so much league wide they’ll need a reshuffling even if there’s no one external brought in 

[Darryl Shannon's +/-]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

If they are making bigger changes, why do nothing now? Who's not available now they would want later? 

I just don't buy the "they're waiting to see who's available" when if that were the case, they'd have fired Adams or moved him already. Letting him make decisions at this point would be insane if you're moving on. I'll bet Ruff picks players and Adams is supposed to acquire them. They aren't hiring external front office staff. 

Maybe they have someone in mind from a team that's still alive?  Who cares if Kevyn is sitting for the lottery.  

That said, I'm not sure the best thing for next year is a complete overhaul of hockey ops.  

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Darryl Shannon's +/- said:

Maybe they have someone in mind from a team that's still alive?  Who cares if Kevyn is sitting for the lottery.  

That said, I'm not sure the best thing for next year is a complete overhaul of hockey ops.  

Then why keep Kevyn? I just don't believe this because it's not how anyone acts ever. You fire the GM and start interviews. If someone can't be interviewed yet, you just wait. Keeping Kevyn makes no sense unless keeping him is the plan. 

[Derrico]

I think they already decided to keep Kevin when they let him navigate trade deadline day and allowed a big trade of a core player.  Whether there is changing the chairs / titles around as @dudacek says I don’t know but I thinks it’s going to be the same guys making the big decisions.  
 

I also hope  Karmanos is as good as everyone thinks.  He has been here for like 5 years now and I think should take some responsibility for the results.  In a salary cap league with half the teams making it I don’t think it’s unreasonable to question their record when he was giving direct input even if Kevin was making the final call. 

[Mango]

6 hours ago, Taro T said:

Don't know that "panicked" is the right word for it, but they definitely pivoted and IMHO it was at Ruff's direction.  And personally expect them to get older this off-season (and not just in the "well Benson will be twenty when the season starts" version).  The concern is that they end up trading away guys like Peterka and Byram because they'll have significant value on the trade market (and guys like Samuelsson and Quinn won't have that sort of value) but that the guys they get back will still have large flaws of their own; just different ones.  

Re-signing Greenway and Zucker has Ruff's fingerprints all over it.  He needs vets that understand how to play within structure to both show the kids how to do it and to get them to buy into it.  And once again, the Sabres will be revamping the idea of what they're trying to build and how they're trying to build it.

Counting all the changes in "how" they're trying to build the team; depending upon what people consider to be a true change in direction, this'll be at least the 5th philopsophical change and arguably the 7th or even the 8th.  (And they've still only had 4 GMs (to date, hopefully that changes in the next few days) in their entire tenure as owners.)

Just watching the playoffs every year it's glaringly obvious that the Sabres are a mile away. I don't care if they missed the playoffs by a point and had 99 this year.

They just aren't close to competing in the first round right now. Not against another teams playoff effort.

I know from a skill perspective they aren't an upgrade but this roster has desperately needed Greenways and Zuckers for a long time.

At the risk of beating a dead horse this team as constructed is handicapped by:

1. Having the most expensive blue line in the league and being embarrassing at defense.

2.Not doing more after/during the 91 point season. 

I just cannot believe that Adams is still around. It's bonkers. Maybe Lindy is doing everything and once Lindy is done behind the bench he leads the search for GM as he rides into the sunset.

I don't know. Maybe it's just wishful thinking? At this point I'd be ecstatic if Terry put Brandon Beane as the GM of both organizations.At least he'd know to just GTFO of the way.

[JP51]

9 hours ago, Derrico said:

I think they already decided to keep Kevin when they let him navigate trade deadline day and allowed a big trade of a core player.  Whether there is changing the chairs / titles around as @dudacek says I don’t know but I thinks it’s going to be the same guys making the big decisions.  
 

I also hope  Karmanos is as good as everyone thinks.  He has been here for like 5 years now and I think should take some responsibility for the results.  In a salary cap league with half the teams making it I don’t think it’s unreasonable to question their record when he was giving direct input even if Kevin was making the final call. 

So that is where I am at.... and maybe I am wrong... but the guts of this organization are so dysfunctional, Karamanos has been here for several of these years (you say 5, I dont remember exactly) ... what exactly has he done to change the direction of the ship.... he seems like he is helping navagate... after 5 years if he was so good why are not other teams sniffing around, OR after 5 years, if he is not being heard and knows that what is happening is a cesspool of incompetence why if he is so good has he not left and got another AGM job someplace... Surely if he was that good someone could find a place for him... Instead, he has stayed here and helped Preside or at minimum support this garbage like a well paid sycophant...  I just cannot think he is the answer... cause if he was... why is he still here after all of this time...  and why are we where we are at... 

[WhenWillItEnd66]

Is it me or is thread more and more depressing when we all know nothing is going to change.....LOL 

[JP51]

9 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Then why keep Kevyn? I just don't believe this because it's not how anyone acts ever. You fire the GM and start interviews. If someone can't be interviewed yet, you just wait. Keeping Kevyn makes no sense unless keeping him is the plan. 

I agree, he is still here because he is going to be here.... maybe the same job, maybe the Peter Principle where he gets promoted... and with a bigger title... etc... bottom line is as I have said before they are gonna put lipstick on this pig and trot it out at best...  What GM or POHO that is worth their salt is gonna come in here with Kevyn Adams still here and potentially presiding over their job... I just can see it... they are going to shuffle internally, IF they do anything, and perpetuate the incompetent cronyism that has pervaded this regime...  Maybe the get a new assistant coach... but they are trotting this out and running it back next year with no appreciable changes... they must be happy with their results...  I am sure they are consulting with their new Marketing/Branding officer as to how to spin this as progress... 

[Pimlach]

9 hours ago, Mango said:

Just watching the playoffs every year it's glaringly obvious that the Sabres are a mile away. I don't care if they missed the playoffs by a point and had 99 this year.

They just aren't close to competing in the first round right now. Not against another teams playoff effort.

I know from a skill perspective they aren't an upgrade but this roster has desperately needed Greenways and Zuckers for a long time.

At the risk of beating a dead horse this team as constructed is handicapped by:

1. Having the most expensive blue line in the league and being embarrassing at defense.

2.Not doing more after/during the 91 point season. 

I just cannot believe that Adams is still around. It's bonkers. Maybe Lindy is doing everything and once Lindy is done behind the bench he leads the search for GM as he rides into the sunset.

I don't know. Maybe it's just wishful thinking? At this point I'd be ecstatic if Terry put Brandon Beane as the GM of both organizations.At least he'd know to just GTFO of the way.

The bolded is why I reacted.  Brandon Beane has a job with the Buffalo Bills and that is enough work for him.  I will assume you are just spit-balling and do not mean this.  

We don't need the Hockey GM to GTFO out of the way.  We need him to establish credibility to a tarnished franchise, to help build a winning culture, and to lead us to victory.  

Hockey is a different sport, and the NHL is a much different league,  and Brandon Beane is not going to fix anything on this hockey team.  

Every single year there is change in the NHL.  Every year there is FO, coaching, and player movement.   The Sabres have been content in the Adams/EEE era to play the slow game, to stockpile lottery tickets, wait for their prospects, and to "hope".   

According to rumors TP is looking at promoting the problem (Adams) up and maybe "out of the way".   If this is even true, it sounds like another desperately flawed plan.  We shall see.  

Round 1 of the playoffs are over. There is a two time Cup winning long standing NHL coach from his favorite city sitting out there.  Will Terry write a check, drill a well, and even attempt to fulfill his blather about hockey heaven for Buffalo?  

 

[thewookie1]

5 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

The bolded is why I reacted.  Brandon Beane has a job with the Buffalo Bills and that is enough work for him.  I will assume you are just spit-balling and do not mean this.  

We don't need the Hockey GM to GTFO out of the way.  We need him to establish credibility to a tarnished franchise, to help build a winning culture, and to lead us to victory.  

Hockey is a different sport, and the NHL is a much different league,  and Brandon Beane is not going to fix anything on this hockey team.  

Every single year there is change in the NHL.  Every year there is FO, coaching, and player movement.   The Sabres have been content in the Adams/EEE era to play the slow game, to stockpile lottery tickets, wait for their prospects, and to "hope".   

According to rumors TP is looking at promoting the problem (Adams) up and maybe "out of the way".   If this is even true, it sounds like another desperately flawed plan.  We shall see.  

Round 1 of the playoffs are over. There is a two time Cup winning long standing NHL coach from his favorite city sitting out there.  Will Terry write a check, drill a well, and even attempt to fulfill his blather about hockey heaven for Buffalo?  

 

Sullivan already signed in NYR

[Pimlach]

59 minutes ago, JP51 said:

So that is where I am at.... and maybe I am wrong... but the guts of this organization are so dysfunctional, Karamanos has been here for several of these years (you say 5, I dont remember exactly) ... what exactly has he done to change the direction of the ship.... he seems like he is helping navagate... after 5 years if he was so good why are not other teams sniffing around, OR after 5 years, if he is not being heard and knows that what is happening is a cesspool of incompetence why if he is so good has he not left and got another AGM job someplace... Surely if he was that good someone could find a place for him... Instead, he has stayed here and helped Preside or at minimum support this garbage like a well paid sycophant...  I just cannot think he is the answer... cause if he was... why is he still here after all of this time...  and why are we where we are at... 

For Karmanos, it would be a poor career management for him to another lateral AGM move.  His next move should be GM.   It will happen at some point.  

Right now he can take some credit for rebuilding the Rochester farm system into a winning team and helping to develop players.  He is ready to be promoted and get a shot.  He seems to like staying in Pittsburgh, we don't know his family situation either, so maybe that is holding back career opportunities at this time.  

It would be a mistake to assume that he is not capable or qualified, especially after experiencing the much less qualified Kevyn Adams for 5 years.  Adams calls the shots for the Sabres, not Karmanos.  

I have no problem with giving Karmanos a shot at GM, admittedly in part because I highly doubt that Terry can conduct a GM job search.  I do have a problem with retaining and promoting Adams.  Adams poor results are out there and cannot be ignored.   

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

The bolded is why I reacted.  Brandon Beane has a job with the Buffalo Bills and that is enough work for him.  I will assume you are just spit-balling and do not mean this.  

We don't need the Hockey GM to GTFO out of the way.  We need him to establish credibility to a tarnished franchise, to help build a winning culture, and to lead us to victory.  

Hockey is a different sport, and the NHL is a much different league,  and Brandon Beane is not going to fix anything on this hockey team.  

Every single year there is change in the NHL.  Every year there is FO, coaching, and player movement.   The Sabres have been content in the Adams/EEE era to play the slow game, to stockpile lottery tickets, wait for their prospects, and to "hope".   

According to rumors TP is looking at promoting the problem (Adams) up and maybe "out of the way".   If this is even true, it sounds like another desperately flawed plan.  We shall see.  

Round 1 of the playoffs are over. There is a two time Cup winning long standing NHL coach from his favorite city sitting out there.  Will Terry write a check, drill a well, and even attempt to fulfill his blather about hockey heaven for Buffalo?  

 

The standard for a Pegula owned team isn't a standard that is applied to all other normally run franchises. Acknowledging that ugly reality, then I would very much be receptive to an internal shakeup where Karmonos is elevated to the GM position, Ruff having more input with his roster and transactions to improve it and the face-saving elevation to a loftier titled position that is more ceremonial than substantive for the feckless KA. 

As @thewookie1 pointed out, any credible HC and GM candidate is not coming here when there are better options working in a normally run franchise. Sullivan coming here was a fantasy aspiration for this hollow franchise. The bottom line is that I would gladly take an internal shakeup to maintaining this suffocating status quo situation. When you are incapable of hitting a home run then at least try to get a single. 

[Pimlach]

31 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Sullivan already signed in NYR

Ugh.  

Thanks for the update.  I missed that news. 

Yet another example of teams that want to win - they make quick and decisive moves.  

St Louis went from bottom 5 in the standings to the playoffs by making an in-season coaching change.  They were 1.6 seconds from beating the top seed.  Their GM will not sit on his hands, they need another top 6 talent and another puck mover on defense -  and they will find a way to get it.  

Winning is not a priority for Terry Pegula's hockey team.  

Edited 4 hours ago by Pimlach

[JP51]

14 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

For Karmanos, it would be a poor career management for him to another lateral AGM move.  His next move should be GM.   It will happen at some point.  

Right now he can take some credit for rebuilding the Rochester farm system into a winning team and helping to develop players.  He is ready to be promoted and get a shot.  He seems to like staying in Pittsburgh, we don't know his family situation either, so maybe that is holding back career opportunities at this time.  

It would be a mistake to assume that he is not capable or qualified, especially after experiencing the much less qualified Kevyn Adams for 5 years.  Adams calls the shots for the Sabres, not Karmanos.  

I have no problem with giving Karmanos a shot at GM, admittedly in part because I highly doubt that Terry can conduct a GM job search.  I do have a problem with retaining and promoting Adams.  Adams poor results are out there and cannot be ignored.   

So this is an interesting take... so if you are saying that his role was not about the NHL but rather the AHL I still wonder about the development of players down there but this could be an interesting take.  Maybe he has something there... I would say though that the lateral move comment was actually not to over state why he didnt move on to be a GM...  I was actually taking a more conservative view of, look if he is watching what his happening here and not intervening, or simply not being heard... then why not move out someplace if he wasnt allowed to be effective in his job... in fact, being the AGM of the running joke in professional sports for a long period of time one could argue might be a worse career move....  anyways, your point is one I was not actively thinking about... so its a good one... in the end... I still am in the we need a brand new regime mode... but that isnt really gonna happen and I think we all know it... 

Edited 4 hours ago by JP51

[PASabreFan]

I'm with chz and at least one other. This thread could be taken out behind the barn. Replace it with something else. Just reading the same title that is apparently all a tease wears you down.

Sabres Water Torture.

[Pimlach]

5 minutes ago, JP51 said:

So this is an interesting take... so if you are saying that his role was not about the NHL but rather the AHL I still wonder about the development of players down there but this could be an interesting take.  Maybe he has something there... I would say though that the lateral move comment was actually not to over state why he didnt move on to be a GM...  I was actually taking a more conservative view of, look if he is watching what his happening here and not intervening, or simply not being heard... then why not move out someplace if he wasnt allowed to be effective in his job... in fact, being the AGM of the running joke in professional sports for a long period of time one could argue might be a worse career move....  anyways, your point is one I was not actively thinking about... so its a good one... in the end... I still am in the we need a brand new regime mode... but that isnt really gonna happen and I think we all know it... 

There will be no new regime.   

Ruff will be back, most likely with increased responsibility.  

Adams will be back in some capacity that involves Hockey Operations.  If he was getting fired it would have happened already.  

Karmanos - maybe he gets promoted to the Sabres GM slot, maybe he doesn't and he leaves? 

 

[Pimlach]

5 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I'm with chz and at least one other. This thread could be taken out behind the barn. Replace it with something else. Just reading the same title that is apparently all a tease wears you down.

Sabres Water Torture.

Then stop reading it.  

Recall the ubiquitous "Is this the lowest point" thread.   It was shut down and yet several more "lowest points" have been achieved by this moribund franchise. 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I'm with chz and at least one other. This thread could be taken out behind the barn. Replace it with something else. Just reading the same title that is apparently all a tease wears you down.

Sabres Water Torture.

Simple solution: Don't read the thread. It's like going to a Chinese restaurant when you hate Chinese food. And then afterwards, predictably complain about the food. Try Italian food instead. You might like the food better and it will fatten you up more. And don't forget to order the vino with it. If the food is not palatable, at least the wine will make up for it. 

[DarthEbriate]

7 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Simple solution: Don't read the thread. It's like going to a Chinese restaurant when you hate Chinese food. And then afterwards, predictably complain about the food. Try Italian food instead. You might like the food better and it will fatten you up more. And don't forget to order the vino with it. If the food is not palatable, at least the wine will make up for it. 

Don’t sell some greasy fried rice and noodles and kung pao short on its ability to fatten you up. And plum wine. 😇

I’m just looking forward to GMKA being the face of the franchise tonight during the lottery when some team leaps to the top and the Sabres end up with 8 overall. Just looking forward to Sheevyn’s smug smirk. Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.

[JP51]

21 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

There will be no new regime.   

Ruff will be back, most likely with increased responsibility.  

Adams will be back in some capacity that involves Hockey Operations.  If he was getting fired it would have happened already.  

Karmanos - maybe he gets promoted to the Sabres GM slot, maybe he doesn't and he leaves? 

 

I agree there will be no new regime or changes that will change the direction of the team and complexion of the FO in any drastic way.... 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, JP51 said:

So that is where I am at.... and maybe I am wrong... but the guts of this organization are so dysfunctional, Karamanos has been here for several of these years (you say 5, I dont remember exactly) ... what exactly has he done to change the direction of the ship.... he seems like he is helping navagate... after 5 years if he was so good why are not other teams sniffing around, OR after 5 years, if he is not being heard and knows that what is happening is a cesspool of incompetence why if he is so good has he not left and got another AGM job someplace... Surely if he was that good someone could find a place for him... Instead, he has stayed here and helped Preside or at minimum support this garbage like a well paid sycophant...  I just cannot think he is the answer... cause if he was... why is he still here after all of this time...  and why are we where we are at... 

I think you're probably putting way too much weight on the past two years in Buffalo in terms of Karmanos' resume. Karmanos first two years in Buffalo, the team outstripped expectations. His Rochester teams have been very good over all 4 years. And then there's the 20+ years with Pittsburgh and Carolina and the 3 Stanley Cups. And NHL people know there is only so much control an assistant GM has.

As for the bold, I think the recent hiring of Jason Botterill is all you need to know about the importance of team records when it comes to GM hires. Here's some other recent hires:

• Craig Conroy was an inside promotion from a mediocre Flames organization
• Kyle Davidson was an inside promotion from a mediocre Hawks organization
• Steve Staios had one year as a special advisor in Edmonton after running a minor league team
• Briere and Drury were internal hires promoted after their GMS got fired
• Mike Grier hadn't even been an assistant GM, he was a special advisor plucked from the Rangers
• Patrick Allvin was a long-time Penguins scout, who spent a couple years there as assistant GM.

GMs are business hires based largely on the impact their vision and presentation makes on the owner, supported by their reputation around the league. It's certainly not unheard of for the assistant GMs of top teams to make the step, but it would wrong to see that as the usual path.

Jim Rutherford reached out to Karmanos for the job Allvin got; It's my understanding its no the only time he's been considered.

Truth of the matter is that it's an old boys network.

Edited 3 hours ago by dudacek