Time for Leadership Change - Trade KO and Give Dahlin the C

[Marvin]

25 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Trades.  Not every player has an NTC/NMC.  If you can't get players to sign here until you prove you are a winning organization, then KA is going to have to take a risk or 3 and trade a precious prospect or draft picks or both to fill his roster holes.  The biggest issue here is our pro scouting staff. So far the players they are recommending to KA haven't exactly elevated the team.  

GMKA has to be willing to trade high ceiling prospects for established veterans.  If it is true that it is hard to sign people in the off-season, then he needs to figure out hockey trades with teams looking to rebuild or another team that needs a shake up.  I don't see any way around it.

[seer775]

1A Goalie FA market:

- Talbot, Mrazek, Samsonov, Kahkonen, Rantaa, Brossoit. 1x $5 mil AAV/ 4 years max.

Defensemen FA market:

- Forsling, OEL, Gustaffson, Grzelcyk, Walker, DeMelo, Kulikov. 2x $4M AAV / 3 years max.

Edited December 15, 2023 by seer775

[PerreaultForever]

Islanders might be interested in Kyle. He had success there and they like old slow veterans with a little 2 way ability. Perfect fit for all, including Kyle who can retire where he started. 

Does naming Dahlin captain change anything though? I'm seriously asking. Is he the "leader"? I have not seen him elevate when the team is down. I don't know if he can "lead". Sure, he's a very good player, but so was Eichel. Not saying they are similar, but the idea of the "star" being the captain is questionable. 

Is Tuch not the better choice? Sabres fan since childhood. I have seen him elevate his play but idk what his locker room presence is. 

Not sure any of that will change anything though. While I did favour the tear down and the trade of Eichel/Reinhart/Risto (the old young core) I do not think they have handled the rebuild properly at all and when you do that wrong you just end up shuffling deck chairs on the titanic. 

imo when you tear down you really tear down and you build back with a lunch bucket hard work tough to play against (nasty even) team and when that is firmly in place and that is the vibe around the locker room, that is what rookies come in to, then and only then you add the young talent on top and they see that culture as the ONLY culture there is and they follow it and you win. 

Veterans with a work ethic have to be the "core" of your team for several years. A young core is almost certainly destined to fail.

[French Collection]

48 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The biggest issue here is our pro scouting staff. So far the players they are recommending to KA haven't exactly elevated the team.  

I don’t think any of Jost, Greenway, Stillman and Robinson were expected to elevate the team. They are mostly depth guys except for Greenway.

KA is the bigger problem imo because he is afraid to make a big move. Is he scared of losing the trade, parting with a prospect who pops off elsewhere?

I would consider it a win by bringing in some experience that provides good play and leadership bringing the team into the playoffs even if you lose say Rosen and someone else. Even if he becomes a 25 goal guy for the next 10 years. The young guys that stay learn from the vets and continue to build the culture of winning.

As much as it feels OK now to have picked up TNT and RyJo in the ROR trade, I think one Cup feels better.

[Pimlach]

23 hours ago, Porous Five Hole said:

It’s really weird to be singling out a third/fourth line guy who gets 14 min a night and is no doubt the grizzly veteran that every team needs. 

Good point.  None of of our star players are playing anywhere near the level they did last year - Tage, Dahlin, Tuch, Cozens -all way down in production.  Dahlin at least looks ok, most of the time.  

The one guy who gets a lot of criticism for his 200 foot game, Skinner, is at least producing at a 30 goal pace.  Mitts has not had a point in the last 4 games.   He needs to contribute in the Vegas game.  

On defense we complain about EJ and Clifton but they have been better overall than Power and Samuelsson.  

Peterka has stepped up.  Ryan Johnson and Benson are pleasant surprises.  Levi and UPL are doing ok.  Its the big guns that are MIA.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

No question the "stars" aren't performing to expectations.  However, I'm not singling out KO because he is a 4th line player.  I'm singling out KO for what he represents as the Captain of the team and one of the 3 pieces of the failed leadership triangle in Buffalo.  IMHO KO is part of the complacency of this team and needs to go. Under his leadership winning is not the standard. 

This is not to say that changes shouldn't be made elsewhere, but you have to start somewhere.  

  

[Pimlach]

43 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No question the "stars" aren't performing to expectations.  However, I'm not singling out KO because he is a 4th line player.  I'm singling out KO for what he represents as the Captain of the team and one of the 3 pieces of the failed leadership triangle in Buffalo.  IMHO KO is part of the complacency of this team and needs to go. Under his leadership winning is not the standard. 

This is not to say that changes shouldn't be made elsewhere, but you have to start somewhere.  

  

who would you give the C to?  

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

who would you give the C to?  

Who's on first.

[Pimlach]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Who's on first.

who would you give the C to?  

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Islanders might be interested in Kyle. He had success there and they like old slow veterans with a little 2 way ability. Perfect fit for all, including Kyle who can retire where he started. 

Does naming Dahlin captain change anything though? I'm seriously asking. Is he the "leader"? I have not seen him elevate when the team is down. I don't know if he can "lead". Sure, he's a very good player, but so was Eichel. Not saying they are similar, but the idea of the "star" being the captain is questionable. 

Is Tuch not the better choice? Sabres fan since childhood. I have seen him elevate his play but idk what his locker room presence is. 

Not sure any of that will change anything though. While I did favour the tear down and the trade of Eichel/Reinhart/Risto (the old young core) I do not think they have handled the rebuild properly at all and when you do that wrong you just end up shuffling deck chairs on the titanic. 

imo when you tear down you really tear down and you build back with a lunch bucket hard work tough to play against (nasty even) team and when that is firmly in place and that is the vibe around the locker room, that is what rookies come in to, then and only then you add the young talent on top and they see that culture as the ONLY culture there is and they follow it and you win. 

Veterans with a work ethic have to be the "core" of your team for several years. A young core is almost certainly destined to fail.

All the vets were purged for the tank.  The team was left with no vets that cared about the crest.

Aside from Skinner, who has huge contract from TP meddling with Boterill, the bulk of the cap money tied up with the young (Dahlin, Thompson) and the very young players (Power and Cozens).  

We have Mitts, maybe our best two way forward, up next for a contract. 

Tuch or Dahlin should be Captain.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

31 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

who would you give the C to?  

Dahlin - As I wrote in thread title.

[JohnC]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:39 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Sorry, it's not nonsense.  He is clearly playing out the string.  He was MIA for the first 20+ games, and under his leadership the team has accomplished nothing.  He doesn’t hold his teammates or himself accountable for bad play and the team reflects that attitude.  

I strenuously disagree with your take on Okposo. He's not playing out the string (your words). There is no question that he is a diminished player who is at the end of his career. Where he is as a player has nothing to do with his lack of leadership. The notion that because he is the designated captain that he is blocking someone else from assuming leadership doesn't resonate with me. Just because he wears the C doesn't mean that players such as Tuch or Dahline or Thompson or even Mitts can't be influential in the room or on the ice. Your frustration with this team is making you chase an irrelevant bogeyman. 

With respecting to who has the responsibility to holding players accountable for their play, it is the coaches, primarily the HC. He asserts his authority by distributing playing time and also by not suiting up players at all if that is what is required to motivate the problematic players. 

I'm not panicking just yet over how the season has unfolded. That is not to say that my patience with this inconsistent team isn't close to being exhausted. Something is missing with this team. It may relate more to the roster mix than to the talent in general.  I just think that the issue you are focusing on regarding who wears the letters is misguided. Again, whether one wears a letter or not has little to do with who exerts leadership. 

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, Pimlach said:

All the vets were purged for the tank.  The team was left with no vets that cared about the crest.

Aside from Skinner, who has huge contract from TP meddling with Boterill, the bulk of the cap money tied up with the young (Dahlin, Thompson) and the very young players (Power and Cozens).  

We have Mitts, maybe our best two way forward, up next for a contract. 

Tuch or Dahlin should be Captain.  

When I watch the enthusiasm Tuch has after a big win and he does his version of a goalie hug, I just think anyone else, even Dahlin, would be a huge mistake. 

Both times the team stunk bad and then rebounded this year the 2 guys that really seemed to step it up were Tuch and Cozens. So my view is the same as it was before this year started. Tuch captain, Dahlin and Cozens assistants. 

[Thorny]

9 hours ago, Pimlach said:

All the vets were purged for the tank.  The team was left with no vets that cared about the crest.

Aside from Skinner, who has huge contract from TP meddling with Boterill, the bulk of the cap money tied up with the young (Dahlin, Thompson) and the very young players (Power and Cozens).  

We have Mitts, maybe our best two way forward, up next for a contract. 

Tuch or Dahlin should be Captain.  

Ya I’d go with Dahlin personally, not really a hard choice. He’s already our best player and will be here longer, and in his prime for the duration of his contract

Also don’t really want the added pressure to lock up a guy who’ll be on the downside of his career because he’s captain, may even run into an Okposo situation 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Thorny

[ska-T Chitown]

18 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Good point.  None of of our star players are playing anywhere near the level they did last year - Tage, Dahlin, Tuch, Cozens -all way down in production.  Dahlin at least looks ok, most of the time.  

The one guy who gets a lot of criticism for his 200 foot game, Skinner, is at least producing at a 30 goal pace.  Mitts has not had a point in the last 4 games.   He needs to contribute in the Vegas game.  

On defense we complain about EJ and Clifton but they have been better overall than Power and Samuelsson.  

Peterka has stepped up.  Ryan Johnson and Benson are pleasant surprises.  Levi and UPL are doing ok.  Its the big guns that are MIA.  

@Pimlach who are you calling out tonight for a big game!? 🤣

[Pimlach]

7 minutes ago, ska-T Chitown said:

@Pimlach who are you calling out tonight for a big game!? 🤣

Tage Thompson needs to turn on the red lamp. 
 

He seems to be a victim of the extra move or extra pass.  Holds the puck too long, too much dangle.   Tell him to fire away.   

[Taro T]

37 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Tage Thompson needs to turn on the red lamp. 
 

He seems to be a victim of the extra move or extra pass.  Holds the puck too long, too much dangle.   Tell him to fire away.   

Lately, he's turning away from confrontation with the D-man.  He has no confidence in his healing wrist at this point.  But he's giving the effort and presumably with use his hands will get back to what they were.

[PASabreFan]

5 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Lately, he's turning away from confrontation with the D-man.  He has no confidence in his healing wrist at this point.  But he's giving the effort and presumably with use his hands will get back to what they were.

George's never came back.

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Lately, he's turning away from confrontation with the D-man.  He has no confidence in his healing wrist at this point.  But he's giving the effort and presumably with use his hands will get back to what they were.

It appears, as you suggest, that an injury is inhibiting his play. But as you astutely observe the effort is there. That's all you can ask for. When this team collectively demonstrates full effort, the results follow. Last night, was a good example of that. Tage is one of the best shooters in the league. It's noticeable that the injury to his wrist is still a lingering problem. He's not the same dynamic shooter that he was prior to the injury. But to his credit he is working through it and giving his all. That's what character and leadership is all about. 

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

George's never came back.

True, but the value of his was entirely superficial.  Thompson's when on are functional.

[nfreeman]

15 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

When I watch the enthusiasm Tuch has after a big win and he does his version of a goalie hug, I just think anyone else, even Dahlin, would be a huge mistake. 

Both times the team stunk bad and then rebounded this year the 2 guys that really seemed to step it up were Tuch and Cozens. So my view is the same as it was before this year started. Tuch captain, Dahlin and Cozens assistants. 

I think Dahlin would make a fine captain, but I agree that it's gotta be Tuch.  He brings the fire, the speed and the inspiration -- I think they rally around him more than they do for Dahlin.  They are noticeably better when he's in the lineup (as is the case with Dahlin, of course).  I also agree with your alternates.

 

14 hours ago, Thorny said:

Ya I’d go with Dahlin personally, not really a hard choice. He’s already our best player and will be here longer, and in his prime for the duration of his contract

Also don’t really want the added pressure to lock up a guy who’ll be on the downside of his career because he’s captain, may even run into an Okposo situation 

 Now this is a fair point.  Tuch has 2 more seasons after this one on his contract, after which he'll be a UFA at age 30.

[Thorny]

56 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I think Dahlin would make a fine captain, but I agree that it's gotta be Tuch.  He brings the fire, the speed and the inspiration -- I think they rally around him more than they do for Dahlin.  They are noticeably better when he's in the lineup (as is the case with Dahlin, of course).  I also agree with your alternates.

 

 Now this is a fair point.  Tuch has 2 more seasons after this one on his contract, after which he'll be a UFA at age 30.

And, I don’t think the reasons being mentioned to give Tuch the C are actually real things: so much surrounding/attributed to the “C” is myth. Is Tuch going to do *more* of the leadership stuff he does if he arbitrarily has the letter? He’s holding back, now? Not in my estimation. Leaders lead. Personally I’m more interested in the tangible: I find it hard to think KO doesn’t get preferential ice time treatment due to his letter. Tuch’s next contract, as mentioned he’ll be in his 30s, on the downside. That’s the most dangerous spot to give out a contract. Can we afford to go long term? Do we want a captain on a short term deal? Even worse, does it lead to an overpay in term/value?

Slap it on the franchise; slap it on Dahlin. It’s time. Doesn’t need to be vocal, he’s more of a Lidstrom

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

And, I don’t think the reasons being mentioned to give Tuch the C are actually real things: so much surrounding/attributed to the “C” is myth. Is Tuch going to do *more* of the leadership stuff he does if he arbitrarily has the letter? He’s holding back, now? Not in my estimation. Leaders lead. Personally I’m more interested in the tangible: I find it hard to think KO doesn’t get preferential ice time treatment due to his letter. Tuch’s next contract, as mentioned he’ll be in his 30s, on the downside. That’s the most dangerous spot to give out a contract. Can we afford to go long term? Do we want a captain on a short term deal? Even worse, does it lead to an overpay in term/value?

Slap it on the franchise; slap it on Dahlin. It’s time. Doesn’t need to be vocal, he’s more of a Lidstrom

Leaders lead is right.  Especially those without a letter.  The next captain needs to be Dahlin, IMO.

I think that the Sabres will re-sign Tuch, but probably not for more than 3 or 4 years.

[Carmel Corn]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I think Dahlin would make a fine captain, but I agree that it's gotta be Tuch.  He brings the fire, the speed and the inspiration -- I think they rally around him more than they do for Dahlin.  They are noticeably better when he's in the lineup (as is the case with Dahlin, of course).  I also agree with your alternates.

 

 Now this is a fair point.  Tuch has 2 more seasons after this one on his contract, after which he'll be a UFA at age 30.

I love the idea of Tuch having a letter and could definitely support him even sporting the "C".  That said, the Sabres have already made their bed though...Dahlin is the only one wearing a letter today and next year (when KO and Girgs are gone), I think the management would view it as a breach of protocol to give the C to somebody who is not already an alternate today.

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 Now this is a fair point.  Tuch has 2 more seasons after this one on his contract, after which he'll be a UFA at age 30.

Name Tuch captain and I would be willing to bet he retires a Sabre.