Terry Pegula named Sabres President; PSE separating Bills and Sabres

[MBD]

Seems like a prelude to selling the Sabres.  No reason to dissolved PSE unless that's the goal.  And of the two teams, there's no chance in hell he's selling the Bills, which are uber-profitable, unlike the Sabres.  Although the timing seems odd since the Sabres should finally make their return to the post-season this year.

[PASabreFan]

31 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I never thought too much about it, but my perception is the Sabres were his love that he bought to enjoy his hard-earned money as he mentioned back in the early days. 

He bought the Bills to save the team from being bought and moved by Jon Bon Jovi et al.

From the getgo with the Bills it seemed more like a Kim thing, and if she's not in the position to be managing them, that would be the team Terry would be most likely to offload if either were on the chopping block.

Plus, with a stadium deal in place the Bills' future in Buffalo seems more secure.

I'd substitute Sabres for Bills in this post. Viva la difference!

I do have "I'm a football guy" on my side. More circumstantially Terry said he didn't know the Sabres were for sale after the Rigas downfall. What fan didn't know that?

31 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I never thought too much about it, but my perception is the Sabres were his love that he bought to enjoy his hard-earned money as he mentioned back in the early days. 

He bought the Bills to save the team from being bought and moved by Jon Bon Jovi et al.

From the getgo with the Bills it seemed more like a Kim thing, and if she's not in the position to be managing them, that would be the team Terry would be most likely to offload if either were on the chopping block.

Plus, with a stadium deal in place the Bills' future in Buffalo seems more secure.

I'd substitute Sabres for Bills in this post. Viva la difference!

I do have "I'm a football guy" on my side. More circumstantially Terry said he didn't know the Sabres were for sale after the Rigas downfall. What fan didn't know that?

[triumph_communes]

If Kim isn’t around nobody wants to run it.  Pegula has always just wanted to run the Sabres. He can hire someone else to run the Bills without having them worry about hockey. The kids tried their hand and failed, this is plan B

[Doohickie]

11 minutes ago, MBD said:

Seems like a prelude to selling the Sabres.  No reason to dissolved PSE unless that's the goal.  And of the two teams, there's no chance in hell he's selling the Bills, which are uber-profitable, unlike the Sabres.  Although the timing seems odd since the Sabres should finally make their return to the post-season this year.

Kind of.

I think I figured it out:  Remember a year or two ago, the NHL said teams can now sell up to... was it 25%? stake in a franchise?  This may be the precursor to a move to sell a stake in the Sabres to an investor.

[thewookie1]

Just now, Doohickie said:

Kind of.

I think I figured it out:  Remember a year or two ago, the NHL said teams can now sell up to... was it 25%? stake in a franchise?  This may be the precursor to a move to sell a stake in the Sabres to an investor.

I could see that, I doubt he'd fully sell the team because the backlash would effect his Bills bottom line as well. However by separating the two would allow him to sell a piece of the Sabres without involving the Bills. 

[TheAud]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

Here is the full announcement:  https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/terry-pegula-sabres-president-organizational-restructure/c-345685802

There's not much to it.  It's pretty impossible to tell why they're doing it.  Could be a million reasons.

Did the music end of the business ever get off the ground?  We know the food didn't do well, and the fashion experiments were, umm...bad.  They sold off the Beauts and I don't know how well the hotel and training departments do, either.

Then there's Kim's health to consider, too.

We can speculate all month long if we want to but I don't think we're going to know anything until the next shoe drops, if even then. 

No way to know of course, but my gut says this is the core of it. 

They had grand ambitions. All the peripheral stuff beyond the Sabres and Bills were also going to be key components of the family business empire. It was well intentioned hubris, and certainly within the rights of billionaires to pursue. But reality eventually hits billionaires, too.

(1) Making money in music, hotels, food, and fashion is hard. Barriers to entry are low = outsized profits are hard to come by. Outsized profits are what drives enterprise value. Unless lightning struck, these enterprises were always destined to be sidenotes next to the sports entities work north of $600M and $4B. 

(2) The ambitious, younger of the two owners is no longer the same person due to medical reasons.  The remaining functional owner is 72. He needs to take care of his wife, enjoy his family, and focus on the two sports franchises he owns. 

So why does he need PSE anymore?

Now what will happen to the Sabres or Bills is another story entirely and I don't think this announcement leads to anything other than speculation well beyond even my random musings here. 

 

[MBD]

11 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Kind of.

I think I figured it out:  Remember a year or two ago, the NHL said teams can now sell up to... was it 25%? stake in a franchise?  This may be the precursor to a move to sell a stake in the Sabres to an investor.

That could be it. 

8 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I could see that, I doubt he'd fully sell the team because the backlash would effect his Bills bottom line as well. However by separating the two would allow him to sell a piece of the Sabres without involving the Bills. 

It wouldn't affect the Bills appreciably. 

[LGR4GM]

24 minutes ago, MBD said:

Seems like a prelude to selling the Sabres.  No reason to dissolved PSE unless that's the goal.  And of the two teams, there's no chance in hell he's selling the Bills, which are uber-profitable, unlike the Sabres.  Although the timing seems odd since the Sabres should finally make their return to the post-season this year.

So you think that Pegula decided to become more involved with the Sabres and also to have a long conversation with the Buffalo News about the arena renovations because he is going to sell the team? Seems unlikely. 

Also, the Sabres are exceedingly profitable for TP. He paid about 200million for the team in 2011 and it is now worth at least 900million. That means in 13 years he managed to double his return twice. Sports teams are exceedingly rare and valuable commodities. 

My guess is that TP decided he didn't have time to run both things, that PSE wasn't the great enterprise he thought it would be, and that splitting them apart and allowing ppl to specialize in one or the other works better. Basically due to in part to Kim's health and his age, he decided this was easier and made him happier. 

[Eleven]

5 minutes ago, TheAud said:

No way to know of course, but my gut says this is the core of it. 

They had grand ambitions. All the peripheral stuff beyond the Sabres and Bills were also going to be key components of the family business empire. It was well intentioned hubris, and certainly within the rights of billionaires to pursue. But reality eventually hits billionaires, too.

(1) Making money in music, hotels, food, and fashion is hard. Barriers to entry are low = outsized profits are hard to come by. Outsized profits are what drives enterprise value. Unless lightning struck, these enterprises were always destined to be sidenotes next to the sports entities work north of $600M and $4B. 

(2) The ambitious, younger of the two owners is no longer the same person due to medical reasons.  The remaining functional owner is 72. He needs to take care of his wife, enjoy his family, and focus on the two sports franchises he owns. 

So why does he need PSE anymore?

Now what will happen to the Sabres or Bills is another story entirely and I don't think this announcement leads to anything other than speculation well beyond even my random musings here. 

 

The facts you articulated are beyond question. Very succinctly and correctly stated.

The opinion, well, we won't know at least for a while, if we ever do.

But great post.

 

[Mango]

Terry has largely been an abysmal hockey owner. He bought the team under the guise of "If I want more money I will drill another well". Only to consistently meddle. Make terrible decisions. Plus who can forget the infamous "maintain family lifestyle" slide they presented. I have to admit; if he bought the team with that tag line, drove it into the ground by his own doing, only to sell it and create uncertainty around the teams future in Buffalo, I will be pretty salty.*

That said I hope he at least sticks around to see this current thing through. It would be nice if one of his kids were competent enough to take it over. I believe Laura is heavily involved in the Bills and maybe the next most competent (Jessica) adult in the family is the third ranked tennis player in the world. I don't get the sense that any of the other children are all that capable of the task. 

(*, I totally understand their family's current health crisis with Kim. But there has been speculation that he has been trying to sell since before that)

[Eleven]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

So you think that Pegula decided to become more involved with the Sabres and also to have a long conversation with the Buffalo News about the arena renovations because he is going to sell the team? Seems unlikely. 

Also, the Sabres are exceedingly profitable for TP. He paid about 200million for the team in 2011 and it is now worth at least 900million. That means in 13 years he managed to double his return twice. Sports teams are exceedingly rare and valuable commodities. 

My guess is that TP decided he didn't have time to run both things, that PSE wasn't the great enterprise he thought it would be, and that splitting them apart and allowing ppl to specialize in one or the other works better. Basically due to in part to Kim's health and his age, he decided this was easier and made him happier. 

Just playing devil's advocate here to show how much we DON'T know:

1.  A new renovation of the arena helps the sale price.  (So does a new stadium in OP for the Bills.)

2.  Profit and appreciation are not the same thing.  Few sports teams are profitable.  The appreciation is what makes money.

3.  This one is just speculation--and not idle or mean or anything like that--but just speculation.  None of us really know, yeah?

[thewookie1]

6 minutes ago, MBD said:

That could be it. 

It wouldn't affect the Bills appreciably. 

The Bills wouldn't become a loss but general sales would go down due to many Sabres fans would outright boycott going to BIlls games if the Sabres moved.

[Eleven]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

Terry has largely been an abysmal hockey owner. He bought the team under the guise of "If I want more money I will drill another well". Only to consistently meddle. Make terrible decisions. Plus who can forget the infamous "maintain family lifestyle" slide they presented. I have to admit; if he bought the team with that tag line, drove it into the ground by his own doing, only to sell it and create uncertainty around the teams future in Buffalo, I will be pretty salty.*

That said I hope he at least sticks around to see this current thing through. It would be nice if one of his kids were competent enough to take it over. I believe Laura is heavily involved in the Bills and maybe the next most competent (Jessica) adult in the family is the third ranked tennis player in the world. I don't get the sense that any of the other children are all that capable of the task. 

(*, I totally understand their family's current health crisis with Kim. But there has been speculation that he has been trying to sell since before that)

You've been drinking PA's kool-aid in the first para.

In the second, do you think Jessie Pegula is going to take time off from pursuing Grand Slams to run football, hockey, and lacrosse teams?  Laura might be involved, but what makes you think she is more able than Terry or Kim?  Again, I see the kool-aid here.

In the third, really?  Where was any *credible* speculation that the Pegulas were trying to sell either team before her illness?  That's just plain BS.  I don't like people sowing nonsense.  I don't think it's nice.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Eleven said:

Just playing devil's advocate here to show how much we DON'T know:

1.  A new renovation of the arena helps the sale price.  (So does a new stadium in OP for the Bills.)

2.  Profit and appreciation are not the same thing.  Few sports teams are profitable.  The appreciation is what makes money.

3.  This one is just speculation--and not idle or mean or anything like that--but just speculation.  None of us really know, yeah?

You don't spend 1billion of your own money on a new stadium when you can sell the Bills tomorrow for 4billion. 

Also if you are selling the Sabres, why are you president? You sell because you need money or are disinterested. We know he doesn't need money and we know that he became team pres because he loves hockey. 

[Quint]

I was uncomfortable with Pegula not attending RJ Behind the Mic night. Instead, he sent a taped message. I can't imagine not going to RJ night unless it was a crisis.    I know this will get probably me canceled, but it seems to me this says that Kim is permanently out of the picture, whether it's disability, divorce or death. Despite all the blathering about the French Connection, I wouldn't be surprised with the eventual Pegula-less Sabres and/or Bills. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Quint

[Eleven]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You don't spend 1billion of your own money on a new stadium when you can sell the Bills tomorrow for 4billion. 

Also if you are selling the Sabres, why are you president? You sell because you need money or are disinterested. We know he doesn't need money and we know that he became team pres because he loves hockey. 

You spend 1 billion if you're gonna make 6 (or even 4) with a new stadium, though.  The total investment--Bills cost 1.2B (that was the purchase price), stadium costs, let's even make it big, 1.5.  That's 2.7.  Now.  he "can sell the Bills tomorrow for 4 billion"?  Get it?  That's 1.3 in profit.  BILLION.  Again, not attacking you, just playing devil's advocate.  

I don't think that he will sell the Sabres.  I don't think that this move is about that.  But I also have NOTHING to go on, and none of us do. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Eleven

[Mango]

18 minutes ago, Eleven said:

You've been drinking PA's kool-aid in the first para.

In the second, do you think Jessie Pegula is going to take time off from pursuing Grand Slams to run football, hockey, and lacrosse teams?  Laura might be involved, but what makes you think she is more able than Terry or Kim?  Again, I see the kool-aid here.

In the third, really?  Where was any *credible* speculation that the Pegulas were trying to sell either team before her illness?  That's just plain BS.  I don't like people sowing nonsense.  I don't think it's nice.

A couple of things. 

Terry has been a very bad owner of an NHL team. That isn't koolaide. That is historical fact and not debatable. He bought the team in February 2011, the Sabres last playoff game was April of that year. Since buying the team, Terry has not overseen a single full season where the team made the playoffs. It has been 12 years since the Sabres last playoff game, an NHL record by some margin. The next worst NHL drought is nearly half that (Detroit, 7 years). His NHL ownership has been historically bad.

Of course I know Jessica isn't leaving tennis. That was the point. We know Laura has been involved with the Bills for quite some time.  There is no real heir apparent for the Sabres which is why I hope he sticks around to see this version of the team through. 

This is an internet message board not a collection of peer reviewed articles. The entire premise is dialogue and speculation. Until Terry stands in front of a mic and says "The Sabres are for sale" there is no smoking gun, but because there have been rumors and now a restructure, it is a worthy talking point in a (sabre)space like this. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Mango

[MBD]

12 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

The Bills wouldn't become a loss but general sales would go down due to many Sabres fans would outright boycott going to BIlls games if the Sabres moved.

General sales of what?  TV/streaming revenue dwarfs anything else the Bills make.  And how many Sabres fans are also Bills ST holders?  I'd bet not many.

And how many Sabres fans have wanted Terry gone?  As they say "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

[PerreaultForever]

Obviously everything said by everyone (me included) in this forum is pure speculation. We all know absolutely nothing. 

I don't know the details of New York tax laws but logically I would suspect separating the two organizations allows for greater tax write offs should one lose money while the other makes money. Losses can usually get more than 1 to 1 write offs for smart accountants. Might just be that simple. It does also, obviously, set up an easier option for a sale of either should he want to. 

Maybe he gives up on the losing Sabres if this rebuild doesn't work. But also maybe he wants to focus more on the Sabres and thus he's president. Maybe he thinks he might sell the Bills cause he really doesn't like football as much as he likes hockey and he's just treated that as a business opportunity. Increase the value and then sell it off. Maybe he plans to give one of them to his daughter one day. Maybe he plans to sell both and retire to Florida. Who knows? 

[nucci]

52 minutes ago, MBD said:

Seems like a prelude to selling the Sabres.  No reason to dissolved PSE unless that's the goal.  And of the two teams, there's no chance in hell he's selling the Bills, which are uber-profitable, unlike the Sabres.  Although the timing seems odd since the Sabres should finally make their return to the post-season this year.

easier to sell a good team and get a better price

[Randall Flagg]

24 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

The Bills wouldn't become a loss but general sales would go down due to many Sabres fans would outright boycott going to BIlls games if the Sabres moved.

I highly doubt that would happen

[PromoTheRobot]

31 minutes ago, TheAud said:

No way to know of course, but my gut says this is the core of it. 

They had grand ambitions. All the peripheral stuff beyond the Sabres and Bills were also going to be key components of the family business empire. It was well intentioned hubris, and certainly within the rights of billionaires to pursue. But reality eventually hits billionaires, too.

(1) Making money in music, hotels, food, and fashion is hard. Barriers to entry are low = outsized profits are hard to come by. Outsized profits are what drives enterprise value. Unless lightning struck, these enterprises were always destined to be sidenotes next to the sports entities work north of $600M and $4B. 

(2) The ambitious, younger of the two owners is no longer the same person due to medical reasons.  The remaining functional owner is 72. He needs to take care of his wife, enjoy his family, and focus on the two sports franchises he owns. 

So why does he need PSE anymore?

Now what will happen to the Sabres or Bills is another story entirely and I don't think this announcement leads to anything other than speculation well beyond even my random musings here. 

 

A lot of stuff felt like projects to get the kids involved. Those OneBuffalo designs were not something I'd buy. 

As for music, didn't Kelsea Ballerini enjoy some success? She was the big star of Black River Entertainment.

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

I highly doubt that would happen

Thank to Josh Allen the Bills are a national brand now, and most of those fans could give a rat's patoot about hockey.

[thewookie1]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

I highly doubt that would happen

They wouldn’t stop watching the Bills, it would be more in regards to buying tickets and the like.

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, thewookie1 said:

They wouldn’t stop watching the Bills, it would be more in regards to buying tickets and the like.

I love the Sabres probably more than 99.5% of Bills fans and the Sabres leaving would just give me a bigger budget to spend on the Bills

[Eleven]

Just now, thewookie1 said:

They wouldn’t stop watching the Bills, it would be more in regards to buying tickets and the like.

The other posters are right.  Bills fans don't care about the Sabres as much as you might think.

 

This thread is going to be a *****-show until preseason.