GDT: Sharks at Sabres 7PM Jan 6, 2022

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

There is really only one reason.

1. The team sucks.

2.

3. 

4. 

5. 

6. 

7. 

That’s it.

FTFY.

 

If the Sabres were good, the arena would be filled. No other BS excuse would matter.

 

[Zamboni]

Just now, SwampD said:

FTFY.

 

If the Sabres were good, the arena would be filled. No other BS excuse would matter.

 

Ok that’s your opinion… all good. 👍🏼

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, Dreams Burn Down said:

I remember a game during a snow storm from when I was a kid.  I think that it was against the Kings(?).  Anyway, my parents and many others slept overnight in the Aud Club.  Sabres fandom has certainly changed.

I went to many games in the Aud despite snow storms.  It used to snow more consistently in the 70’s and 80’s.  The problem is they are a terrible team but also fans and people are different now too.  People don’t want to be bothered with bad weather when it’s already in tv and they lose constantly.   
 

Look at some of the threads on TBD.  Many fans want a dome and see bad weather as a disadvantage for the home team.   Seems like more fans today are less willing to go out and fight the elements than in the past. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Pimlach

[SwampD]

4 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Ok that’s your opinion… all good. 👍🏼

I find it hilarious that anyone could think otherwise. 👍🏻

[Zamboni]

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

I find it hilarious that anyone could think otherwise. 👍🏻

Um ok …

[PASabreFan]

2 hours ago, OverPowerYou said:

Boy it’s too bad we traded away Eichel and Oreilly. Wake me up when Darcy’s “suffering” is over.

He only read the speech. Someone else wrote it. Most people by now know who's responsible. Darcy was merely offering a warning. He was gone months later, likely because he wanted no part of the "extent of the rebuild."

1 hour ago, Dreams Burn Down said:

I remember a game during a snow storm from when I was a kid.  I think that it was against the Kings(?).  Anyway, my parents and many others slept overnight in the Aud Club.  Sabres fandom has certainly changed.

They showed a highlight from 2008 as part of RJ's Last Call. It was 2008, in the wake of losing the co-captains. Sekera scored and the packed house in the background rose up as one. The Pegulas should go to hockey prison for their crimes against this franchise.

1 hour ago, inkman said:

Andrew asks if they are being coached this way.  I think there is something to this.  I’m as blood thirsty as the next guy but it would not surprise me that analytical data suggests it’s worse for your team to put yourself out of position, give up on playing the puck, to deck someone.  What can’t be measured is the ramifications of hitting players when they have the puck.  Is a player more tentative when handling the puck if they know someone is coming to lower the boom?  

Are you shocked that the team plays like this under a head coach who couldn't be bothered to be upset by the NHL awarding a goal on a clearly illegal play so some kids could Tik Tok it?

Edited January 7, 2022 by PASabreFan

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

Andrew asks if they are being coached this way.  I think there is something to this.  I’m as blood thirsty as the next guy but it would not surprise me that analytical data suggests it’s worse for your team to put yourself out of position, give up on playing the puck, to deck someone.  What can’t be measured is the ramifications of hitting players when they have the puck.  Is a player more tentative when handling the puck if they know someone is coming to lower the boom?  

Yes it can. There is a difference between hitting someone to hit them and hitting them to get the puck. This is a clear example of you should hit that player. I say yes it can because everything flows into transitions (measured), puck possession, shot attempts, etc... so if you are shying away from hits and not getting the puck back, you are going to see that in the numbers. I think in this case, it isn't analytics, it is concern with the NHL and their hit policy, but I would hope Granato uses this as an example of when to be aggressive. Ftr I say #15 multiple times last night not hustle and not engage and it was maddening, this was not the only example. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

If the not hitting in these situations is being coached, Granato needs to rethink his strategy. Physical play to separate the player from the puck is highly effective in the NHL. 

[inkman]

51 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

He only read the speech. Someone else wrote it. Most people by now know who's responsible. Darcy was merely offering a warning. He was gone months later, likely because he wanted no part of the "extent of the rebuild."

They showed a highlight from 2008 as part of RJ's Last Call. It was 2008, in the wake of losing the co-captains. Sekera scored and the packed house in the background rose up as one. The Pegulas should go to hockey prison for their crimes against this franchise.

Are you shocked that the team plays like this under a head coach who couldn't be bothered to be upset by the NHL awarding a goal on a clearly illegal play so some kids could Tik Tok it?

I laud the fact that Meatballs cannot be bothered with NHL officiating.  It’s a joke.  You can’t change it, don’t lose sleep over it.  

37 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

If the not hitting in these situations is being coached, Granato needs to rethink his strategy. Physical play to separate the player from the puck is highly effective in the NHL. 

Yes but what if the hits don’t do that 

[SabresVet]

2 hours ago, Zamboni said:

People mistakenly  point to one reason. Or maybe two. I honestly believe it’s a multitude of reasons why the arena is the way it is. In no particular order.

1. People positive with Covid.

2. The team sucks and don’t want to spend the money to see them.

3. Don’t want to go to a game where you have to show proof of vaccination. Even if you are vaccinated.

4. Some fans aren’t vaccinated. So therefore can’t attend.

5. Can’t afford it at this time. maybe their work closed down or they’re laid off due to pandemic etc …

6. Canadian fans don’t want to put up with the hassle of coming over the border and going back. Or can’t at this time.

7. Weather related reasons.

I am sure there are a few other reasons as well… 

But I think it’s a multitude of reasons that could be pointed to as to why the arena attendance is the way it is. I know I have my reasons….

Complex problems typically have several causes, some root and others contributing.  Prominent contributing are 3, 4, 5, 6 and maybe 7.  I doubt 1 is a major impact to game attendance though, but could be a contributing cause.    

The main reason is #2...a very loyal fan base has, after 10+ years of misery under this ownership, finally stopped supporting the team in-person.  Die-hards still exist, but it's the middle of the road fans, who may well being facing financial challenges, but even if not the team is not worth going to see for ticket price points.    

And I'd point to the 45% of the arena filled through 18 home games as evidence. In fact, this is almost half of what it was in 2019-20.  

https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=5054

We can quibble about minor details, but even if there were no virus restrictions most people wouldn't go watch this team.  At least with Eichel and Reinhart there were some very good or better players to see even if they lost.  Now, there's no marquee players and they're still likely going to lose (they've won 2 home games in the last 2 months).  

 

 

[Kristian]

59 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

If the not hitting in these situations is being coached, Granato needs to rethink his strategy. Physical play to separate the player from the puck is highly effective in the NHL. 

And especially on breakouts, physical play along the boards to impede players skating out if their zone, is extremely important.

No need to destroy just run into him, keeping him from clearing the zone, or in this situation, going to the bench.

Yet, all we see are those lame stick swipes night after night after night…..

Edited January 7, 2022 by Kristian

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

He only read the speech. Someone else wrote it. Most people by now know who's responsible. Darcy was merely offering a warning. He was gone months later, likely because he wanted no part of the "extent of the rebuild."

They showed a highlight from 2008 as part of RJ's Last Call. It was 2008, in the wake of losing the co-captains. Sekera scored and the packed house in the background rose up as one. The Pegulas should go to hockey prison for their crimes against this franchise.

Are you shocked that the team plays like this under a head coach who couldn't be bothered to be upset by the NHL awarding a goal on a clearly illegal play so some kids could Tik Tok it?

So when I pointed out I was still worried with the direction of the team why did you tell me "the bad men are gone, it's been cleansed" or whatever? I never really understood that when we both agree Pegula is at the root. 

[Pimlach]

57 minutes ago, inkman said:

 

Yes but what if the hits don’t do that 

If the hits don’t separate the man from the puck they could also cause the player to hurry the play and make a errant pass.  Same result.  At a minimum, good legal hits make the other team tentative.   
 

#15 should be hitting everyone in sight.  What else does he bring?

Edited January 7, 2022 by Pimlach

[SwampD]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

Andrew asks if they are being coached this way.  I think there is something to this.  I’m as blood thirsty as the next guy but it would not surprise me that analytical data suggests it’s worse for your team to put yourself out of position, give up on playing the puck, to deck someone.  What can’t be measured is the ramifications of hitting players when they have the puck.  Is a player more tentative when handling the puck if they know someone is coming to lower the boom?  

Maybe the Sabres are just trying reduce exposure to Covid.

[triumph_communes]

Teams that don’t finish their checks have to be extremely talented to compensate for how much harder that makes the rest of the game when the other team builds confidence they aren’t going to get bumped

 

Dumb not to

[Pimlach]

1 minute ago, triumph_communes said:

Teams that don’t finish their checks have to be extremely talented to compensate for how much harder that makes the rest of the game when the other team builds confidence they aren’t going to get bumped  do not contend for the Stanley Cup.  

 

Dumb not to

My take ^ 

[Doohickie]

4 hours ago, nucci said:

The Aud used to be packed in worse weather conditions

Understood, but not full to the brim.  It would be a percentage of normal attendance, just like last night.

[Zamboni]

1 hour ago, SabresVet said:

Complex problems typically have several causes, some root and others contributing.  Prominent contributing are 3, 4, 5, 6 and maybe 7.  I doubt 1 is a major impact to game attendance though, but could be a contributing cause.    

The main reason is #2...a very loyal fan base has, after 10+ years of misery under this ownership, finally stopped supporting the team in-person.  Die-hards still exist, but it's the middle of the road fans, who may well being facing financial challenges, but even if not the team is not worth going to see for ticket price points.    

And I'd point to the 45% of the arena filled through 18 home games as evidence. In fact, this is almost half of what it was in 2019-20.  

https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=5054

We can quibble about minor details, but even if there were no virus restrictions most people wouldn't go watch this team.  At least with Eichel and Reinhart there were some very good or better players to see even if they lost.  Now, there's no marquee players and they're still likely going to lose (they've won 2 home games in the last 2 months).  

 

 

Yes …. Multitude of reasons.
 

 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

So when I pointed out I was still worried with the direction of the team why did you tell me "the bad men are gone, it's been cleansed" or whatever? I never really understood that when we both agree Pegula is at the root. 

Are the Pegulas most responsible for this franchise's spiral into mediocrity since they bought the team? Most people would agree with that view. However, it seems to me that their involvement in personnel decisions has changed from involvement to disengagement. I believe that this front office is making the hockey decisions without much input from the owners. There is no doubt that the owners still have a say when money decisions are a factor. That business reality is an approach that applies to all franchises. Since KA took over as a GM he established the new course of rebuilding by dealing away the high cost prime players and replenishing the organization with cheaper players and future assets. This is a strategy that the owners would be happy with, especially since they are hemorrhaging money in their hockey business. 

What was the inglorious past was the inglorious past. What's happening now is that this regime (that includes the owners and hockey staff) has made a decision to rebuild a muddled franchise by giving it a direction and coherency that it lacked for a long time. For a variety of reasons (mostly, but not all financial reasons) this organization has no option other than to rebuild from within. There will be no significant outside acquisitions that will accelerate the process. Counting this year, I see this process taking three years before this team becomes a serious team.  

 

 

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Are the Pegulas most responsible for this franchise's spiral into mediocrity since they bought the team? Most people would agree with that view. However, it seems to me that their involvement in personnel decisions has changed from involvement to disengagement. I believe that this front office is making the hockey decisions without much input from the owners. There is no doubt that the owners still have a say when money decisions are a factor. That business reality is an approach that applies to all franchises. Since KA took over as a GM he established the new course of rebuilding by dealing away the high cost prime players and replenishing the organization with cheaper players and future assets. This is a strategy that the owners would be happy with, especially since they are hemorrhaging money in their hockey business. 

What was the inglorious past was the inglorious past. What's happening now is that this regime (that includes the owners and hockey staff) has made a decision to rebuild a muddled franchise by giving it a direction and coherency that it lacked for a long time. For a variety of reasons (mostly, but not all financial reasons) this organization has no option other than to rebuild from within. There will be no significant outside acquisitions that will accelerate the process. Counting this year, I see this process taking three years before this team becomes a serious team.  

 

 

With the exception of your idea that they had "no other option" but to go this route, I see the rest of the post as plausible.  

The new process is not without risks. If the timeline you believe in is merely extended one further year, and there's another 2 full years after this one where we aren't "serious", I fear for the "culture."

Hell, I fear for it with another bad year after the current. 

Is the top of the draft a priority again next year?

Edited January 7, 2022 by Thorny

[JohnC]

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

With the exception of your idea that they had "no other option" but to go this route, I see the rest of the post as plausible.  

The new process is not without risks. If the timeline you believe in is merely extended one further year, and there's another 2 full years after this one where we aren't "serious", I fear for the "culture."

Hell, I fear for it with another bad year after the current. 

Is the top of the draft a priority again next year?

Because of the accumulated mistakes of the past there was no other plausible approach to rebuild this franchise for an owner who was hemorrhaging money in his hockey enterprise. I agree with you that if this franchise wasn't managed so poorly during the Jack and Reinhart tenure this mostly start from scratch reconstruction wouldn't have been necessary. However, we are where we are. If this franchise was managed wisely both Jack and Reinhart would still be the centerpieces of this team. However, no matter how much we lament over our self-managed destruction we are where we are. 

I agree with you that this rebuild has risks. There are no guarantees. Without a doubt success is predicated on making the right personnel decisions. What's positive is that the Rochester group that is ready to move up soon looks promising. It's not unreasonable to believe that half-dozen futures will be on the roster next year. 

Although I believe that a three-year timeframe is a reasonable period for this team to become a serious team that doesn't mean that next year this altered roster couldn't be a competitive and entertaining team. If UPL develops into a mainstay goalie then I will be very optimistic about our near future.  

[SabresVet]

8 hours ago, Thorny said:

With the exception of your idea that they had "no other option" but to go this route, I see the rest of the post as plausible.  

The new process is not without risks. If the timeline you believe in is merely extended one further year, and there's another 2 full years after this one where we aren't "serious", I fear for the "culture."

Hell, I fear for it with another bad year after the current. 

Is the top of the draft a priority again next year?

What would be odd is the current core, albeit younger and less proven, not becoming disenchanted with repeated losing into 2022-23.  

If next season sees Buffalo finish outside the playoffs, guys like Dahlin will be gone when their contracts expire or they have enough leverage over the team just like the guys who left this year did. 

At least Adams acknowledges how they need to win back the fanbase, which is evident with each home game's attendance.  And I'd expect that the GM in the sky is looking for results before year 3 of an Adams rebuild or 2023-24. 

[Doohickie]

I was going to start the Saturday GDT and then I realized that's the game MTL postponed  😞

[Dreams Burn Down]

7 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

I was going to start the Saturday GDT and then I realized that's the game MTL postponed  😞

I'm going to have to get my ice hockey fix from somewhere else tonight.  A sign of the times.