What we’ve learned from the Jack Eichel conclusion

[dudacek]

I’ve done a lot of reading and listening since Thursday and have come to some definite conclusions about a handful of items we extensively debated in the Eichel speculation thread.

1 Trading Jack Eichel was not Kevyn Adams’ idea.

Straight from Jack’s mouth, in the immediate wake of Jason Botterill being fired he went to the team and said I can’t handle more rebuilding, if you’re going to reset, trade me to fuel your reset. The Taylor Hall/Eric Staal thing was an attempt to change his mind, but the idea was Jack’s.

2 Terry Pegula put restrictions on what Adams could do in terms of handling the Eichel situation.

Some people maintained the Sabres could not authorize ADR for purely medical or insurance reasons. I say the fact that the Knights are authorizing it as evidence that is simply not the case. I can’t see why the exact same options available to the Knights were not available to the Sabres. Both Sidney Crosby and Connor McDavid underwent treatments different than that recommended by their team’s medical staff based on building a case of supporting evidence in the same fashion Eichel did. Someone chose not to agree, and I believe that someone, logically, was Terry.

I also believe that Adams inability to consider salary retention in an Eichel deal was a mandate directly from ownership. It has been reported by several insiders that this situation got nasty. Yet neither Eichel, nor Adams seemed to have anything other than positive words for the other. The “nasty,” I think came between an owner who felt betrayed by his former golden child and the golden child who was not used to be told “no.” I think Terry was determined that once Jack was gone, he was not going to see another dime.

Finally, I think Terry was perfectly willing to hang on forever if that’s what it took for the right offer to come through. He was determined he was not going to end up with another ROR deal and had instructed Adams to do exactly that.

3) Kevyn Adams earned my respect

I don’t think he got fair value for Eichel, but I also don’t think he ever was. He got a good, young  NHL player under contract for term, at a position of need. And, almost as important, that player is a walking ad for being happy to be a Buffalo Sabre. He also got probably the best centre prospect he was ever going to get, with the added bonus of that player fitting the “Sabre” mould he is trying to create. And he got two lottery tickets without adding a cent of bad cap.

I think he was placed in an exceedingly difficult situation yet still may have emerged with viable pieces for his rebuild as well as a modicum of respect from his peers and his fan base. Time will tell, as always, but he did far better than I thought he was going to.

Again, I am so glad this is over. Looking forward to seeing how the pieces come together, with increased confidence in the hand at the wheel.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by dudacek

[Weave]

Our owner continues to handcuff his employees.

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’ve done a lot of reading and listening since Thursday and have come to some definite conclusions about a handful of items we extensively debated in the Eichel speculation thread.

1 Trading Jack Eichel was not Kevyn Adams’ idea.

Straight from Jack’s mouth, in the immediate wake of Jason Botterill being fired he went to the team and said I can’t handle more rebuilding, if you’re going to reset, trade me to fuel your reset. The Taylor Hall/Eric Staal thing was an attempt to change his mind, but the idea was Jack’s.

2 Terry Pegula put restrictions on what Adams could do in terms of handling the Eichel situation.

Some people maintained the Sabres could not authorize ADR for purely medical or insurance reasons. I say the fact that the Knights are authorizing it as evidence that is simply not the case. I can’t see why the exact same options available to the Knights were not available to the Sabres. Both Sidney Crosby and Connor McDavid underwent treatments different than that recommended by their team’s medical staff based on building a case of supporting evidence in the same fashion Eichel did. Someone chose not to agree, and I believe that someone, logically, was Terry.

I also believe that Adams inability to consider salary retention in an Eichel deal was a mandate directly from ownership. It has been reported by several insiders that this situation got nasty. Yet neither Eichel, nor Adams seemed to have anything other than positive words for the other. The “nasty,” I think came between an owner who felt betrayed by his former golden child and the golden child who was not used to be told “no.” I think Terry was determined that once Jack was gone, he was not going to see another dime.

Finally, I think Terry was perfectly willing to hang on forever if that’s what it took for the right offer to come through. He was determined he was not going to end up with another ROR deal and had instructed Adams to do exactly that.

3) Kevyn Adams earned my respect

I don’t think he got fair value for Eichel, but I also don’t think he ever was. He got a good, young  NHL player under contract for term, at a position of need. And, almost as important, that player is a walking ad for being happy to be a Buffalo Sabre. He also got probably the best centre prospect he was ever going to get, with the added bonus of that player fitting the “Sabre” mould he is trying to create. And he got two lottery tickets without adding a cent of bad cap.

I think he was placed in an exceedingly difficult situation yet still may have emerged with viable pieces for his rebuild as well as a modicum of respect from his peers and his fan base. Time will tell, as always, but he did far better than I thought he was going to.

Again, I am so glad this is over. Looking forward to seeing how the pieces come together, with increased confidence in the hand at the wheel.

 

 

I don't agree with all your conclusions. Particularly the medical thing because I find it to be faulty logic. The Sabres could have done the surgery but why take the risk? If it goes bad you have nothing and if it goes good, you're not letting Eichel play anyways so who cares? 

After Krueger failed, Adams very clearly took control and at that point must have told Terry the plan. No chance in hell this is Terry's plan, he's not that clever. 

I think my understanding is that Adams got Pegula approval to trade Jack and perhaps salary retention was a no from Pegula but the rest I doubt. 

Finally Terry didn't hold on for anything. He wouldn't know good value in a trade but Adams would and did set the bar. I think Adams told Terry he wasn't trading Eichel unless he got the right value and Terry was going to have to pay Jack until it happened. 

[Pimlach]

Imlach, Bowman, Meehan and Muckler -  all would have rebelled and been fired for not following the Pegula rule book.
 

Hoping Adams can tame the Pegula’s and build something.  

Edited November 9, 2021 by Pimlach

[dudacek]

Damn, I thought I could write more clearly than that. I feel like you’ve got the wrong impression about nearly everything I wrote.

I’ll repeat, straight from Jack Eichel’s mouth: he went to the team and asked to be traded when Botterill was fired.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/video/jack-eichel-explains-things-went-sideways-buffalo/?show_id=13373

Jack (again from his mouth) was willing to play for the team post-surgery to rehab his value. You seem to be arguing whether or not they should have done that, which is not my point, or my conclusion. My point was ownership had the power to authorize surgery and chose not to.

I never said it was Terry’s plan. I’ve concluded that once Jack wanted out, Terry said “fine, trade him, but I’m not retaining, and I’m not authorizing the surgery.” In other words, I’ve treated that ungrateful brat like a king and he’s not walking out of here on my dime. He didn’t plan the Eichel trade, as Weave said, he handcuffed it.

And I agree entirely with your last paragraph, other than the idea that Adams dictated that position to Terry. I believe Terry was embarrassed by the ROR trade and told Kevyn he was not going to set a deadline on this: hold out until he got what Kevyn deemed as fair value.

47 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't agree with all your conclusions. Particularly the medical thing because I find it to be faulty logic. The Sabres could have done the surgery but why take the risk? If it goes bad you have nothing and if it goes good, you're not letting Eichel play anyways so who cares? 

After Krueger failed, Adams very clearly took control and at that point must have told Terry the plan. No chance in hell this is Terry's plan, he's not that clever. 

I think my understanding is that Adams got Pegula approval to trade Jack and perhaps salary retention was a no from Pegula but the rest I doubt. 

Finally Terry didn't hold on for anything. He wouldn't know good value in a trade but Adams would and did set the bar. I think Adams told Terry he wasn't trading Eichel unless he got the right value and Terry was going to have to pay Jack until it happened. 

 

[Pimlach]

Ovechkin not working up a sweat - tips in two.  
 

He is now 4th all time in goals. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Pimlach

[klos1963]

I heard Eichel talk about asking to be moved, but earlier in this saga, didn't KA say that Eichel had not, at that point, asked for a trade?  Not asking to be argumentative, just seeing if my memory is correct.

[Taro T]

16 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Damn, I thought I could write more clearly than that. I feel like you’ve got the wrong impression about nearly everything I wrote.

I’ll repeat, straight from Jack Eichel’s mouth: he went to the team and asked to be traded when Botterill was fired.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/video/jack-eichel-explains-things-went-sideways-buffalo/?show_id=13373

Jack (again from his mouth) was willing to play for the team post-surgery to rehab his value. You seem to be arguing whether or not they should have done that, which is not my point, or my conclusion. My point was ownership had the power to authorize surgery and chose not to.

I never said it was Terry’s plan. I’ve concluded that once Jack wanted out, Terry said “fine, trade him, but I’m not retaining, and I’m not authorizing the surgery.” In other words, I’ve treated that ungrateful brat like a king and he’s not walking out of here on my dime. He didn’t plan the Eichel trade, as Weave said, he handcuffed it.

And I agree entirely with your last paragraph, other than the idea that Adams dictated that position to Terry. I believe Terry was embarrassed by the ROR trade and told Kevyn he was not going to set a deadline on this: hold out until he got what Kevyn deemed as fair value.

 

To the bolded: IF they were rebuilding.   Saying you don't want to go through a rebuild is much different than saying "trade me right ####ing now"  (now, hang up).

 

[SDS]

20 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Ovechkin not working up a sweat - tips in two.  
 

He is now 4th all time in goals. 

Everyone relax. I found uncle Ned!

[Curt]

55 minutes ago, Taro T said:

To the bolded: IF they were rebuilding.   Saying you don't want to go through a rebuild is much different than saying "trade me right ####ing now"  (now, hang up).

 

True, but still, he went out of his way to have a conversation about “maybe you should just trade me”.  That’s not something you would do if you didn’t want want to be traded.

I would think that Terry would genuinely be hurt by this.

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’ve done a lot of reading and listening since Thursday and have come to some definite conclusions about a handful of items we extensively debated in the Eichel speculation thread.

1 Trading Jack Eichel was not Kevyn Adams’ idea.

Straight from Jack’s mouth, in the immediate wake of Jason Botterill being fired he went to the team and said I can’t handle more rebuilding, if you’re going to reset, trade me to fuel your reset. The Taylor Hall/Eric Staal thing was an attempt to change his mind, but the idea was Jack’s.

2 Terry Pegula put restrictions on what Adams could do in terms of handling the Eichel situation.

Some people maintained the Sabres could not authorize ADR for purely medical or insurance reasons. I say the fact that the Knights are authorizing it as evidence that is simply not the case. I can’t see why the exact same options available to the Knights were not available to the Sabres. Both Sidney Crosby and Connor McDavid underwent treatments different than that recommended by their team’s medical staff based on building a case of supporting evidence in the same fashion Eichel did. Someone chose not to agree, and I believe that someone, logically, was Terry.

I also believe that Adams inability to consider salary retention in an Eichel deal was a mandate directly from ownership. It has been reported by several insiders that this situation got nasty. Yet neither Eichel, nor Adams seemed to have anything other than positive words for the other. The “nasty,” I think came between an owner who felt betrayed by his former golden child and the golden child who was not used to be told “no.” I think Terry was determined that once Jack was gone, he was not going to see another dime.

Finally, I think Terry was perfectly willing to hang on forever if that’s what it took for the right offer to come through. He was determined he was not going to end up with another ROR deal and had instructed Adams to do exactly that.

3) Kevyn Adams earned my respect

I don’t think he got fair value for Eichel, but I also don’t think he ever was. He got a good, young  NHL player under contract for term, at a position of need. And, almost as important, that player is a walking ad for being happy to be a Buffalo Sabre. He also got probably the best centre prospect he was ever going to get, with the added bonus of that player fitting the “Sabre” mould he is trying to create. And he got two lottery tickets without adding a cent of bad cap.

I think he was placed in an exceedingly difficult situation yet still may have emerged with viable pieces for his rebuild as well as a modicum of respect from his peers and his fan base. Time will tell, as always, but he did far better than I thought he was going to.

Again, I am so glad this is over. Looking forward to seeing how the pieces come together, with increased confidence in the hand at the wheel.

 

 

To clarify on point one though, didn't Jack say he heard about Adams' idea to rebuild, before he mentioned not wanting to be here? It wasn't strictly "immediately upon Botterill's firing", it was after hearing of the plan. 

Totally agree on the Terry stuff

Edited November 9, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

To the bolded: IF they were rebuilding.   Saying you don't want to go through a rebuild is much different than saying "trade me right ####ing now"  (now, hang up).

 

Right, and he didn't just randomly say, "hey if you are rebuilding!". He must have got that idea from somewhere. Maybe I have to watch it again but in the Friedman interview it sounded like he said Adams was talking about his rebuilding plan, first.

Edit - Ya he just says he was "hearing a lot of things about it being a rebuild". So whoever came up with the plan, I guess. My guess is Adams though, do we really think the whole reset was Terry's idea?

Edited November 9, 2021 by Thorny

[Taro T]

Just now, Thorny said:

Right, and he didn't just randomly say, "hey if you are rebuilding!". He must have got that idea from somewhere. Maybe I have to watch it again but in the Friedman interview it sounded like he said Adams was talking about his rebuilding plan, first.

He didn't specifically say it was Adams saying that, but he'd "heard" the team was thinking of rebuilding, so he went to the "team" and said he'd be unhappy w/ going in that direction.

But, it was pretty obvious that when the very 1st thing Adams does, on his 1st day, is fire most all of the front office that something ain't right in the state of Denmark.

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

He didn't specifically say it was Adams saying that, but he'd "heard" the team was thinking of rebuilding, so he went to the "team" and said he'd be unhappy w/ going in that direction.

But, it was pretty obvious that when the very 1st thing Adams does, on his 1st day, is fire most all of the front office that something ain't right in the state of Denmark.

I thought it would have been Adams idea for sure but, is there a chance the idea was Terry's? Watching it again, the first time he mentions Adams is to say "to Adams' credit". I wonder why he'd do that if Adams' idea for a rebuild is what was pushing him out. 

[SDS]

Can you say we have learned anything from Rivet, Peters, and Gionta’s comments ?

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

To the bolded: IF they were rebuilding.   Saying you don't want to go through a rebuild is much different than saying "trade me right ####ing now"  (now, hang up).

 

 

49 minutes ago, Thorny said:

To clarify on point one though, didn't Jack say he heard about Adams' idea to rebuild, before he mentioned not wanting to be here? It wasn't strictly "immediately upon Botterill's firing", it was after hearing of the plan. 

Totally agree on the Terry stuff

A question we were debating prior to the season was whether trading Jack was Adams’ idea first, or Jack’s. One of the theories was that Jack found out that Adams was floating his name out there and reacted.

It’s clear that theory was wrong.

The rumours from last summer about Jack being shopped weren’t about Adams responding to calls, they were about Adams doing his due diligence on Jack’s trade request.

You can debate what path Adams wanted to take when he took over (ultimately he initially chose the path of Staal/Hall/change Jack’s mind) but you can’t say that the idea of trading Jack came any where other than Jack.

It would be really interesting to see what options would have been on the table last summer had they acted on Jack’s request immediately.

Edited November 9, 2021 by dudacek

[SDS]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

A question we were debating prior to the season was whether trading Jack was Adams’ idea first, or Jack’s. One of the theories was that Jack found out that Adams was floating his name out there and reacted.

It’s clear that theory was wrong.

The rumours from last summer about Jack being shopped weren’t about Adams responding to calls, they were about Adams doing his due diligence CE on Jack’s trade request.

You can debate what path Adams wanted to take when he took over (ultimately he initially chose the path of Staal/Hall/change Jack’s mind) but you can’t say that the idea of trading Jack came any where other than Jack.

It would be really interesting to see what options would have been on the table last summer had they acted on Jack’s request immediately.

This sounds correct.

[Thorny]

Just now, dudacek said:

 

A question we were debating prior to the season was whether trading Jack was Adams’ idea first, or Jack’s. One of the theories was that Jack found out that Adams was floating his name out there and reacted.

It’s clear that theory was wrong.

The rumours from last summer about Jack being shopped weren’t about Adams responding to calls, they were about Adams doing his due diligence CE on Jack’s trade request.

You can debate what path Adams wanted to take when he took over (ultimately he initially chose the path of Staal/Hall/change Jack’s mind) but you can’t say that the idea of trading Jack came any where other than Jack.

It would be really interesting to see what options would have been on the table last summer had they acted on Jack’s request immediately.

Yup. Adams' idea to rebuild, but if Jack was on board with a rebuild, he'd be here. 

I think that also throws a bit of water on the rumors that KA wanted Jack gone for character reasons. That Jack was some sort of bad leader. No, it was about choices. 

[Gatorman0519]

Nothing really surprising. We all knew for years if we didn’t get to the playoffs sooner, rather than later, Jack was going to request a trade. We were talking about it 3 years ago. Jack was never really happy playing for this organization and you can’t blame him. The mismanagement of this team was mindboggling on every level. He wasn’t going to waste his prime years here. Can you imagine being Jack on this team this year? Yikes. He’d be about 27-28 before we are competitive again IF we hit on picks and development. It’s a no brainer if I’m Jack. 

[Zamboni]

5 minutes ago, Gatorman0519 said:

Nothing really surprising. We all knew for years if we didn’t get to the playoffs sooner, rather than later, Jack was going to request a trade. We were talking about it 3 years ago. Jack was never really happy playing for this organization and you can’t blame him. The mismanagement of this team was mindboggling on every level. He wasn’t going to waste his prime years here. Can you imagine being Jack on this team this year? Yikes. He’d be about 27-28 before we are competitive again IF we hit on picks and development. It’s a no brainer if I’m Jack. 

Never happy? I beg to differ. I think besides the constant losing, which every player wasn’t happy about, the first three years or so … he was happy in Buffalo.

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, klos1963 said:

I heard Eichel talk about asking to be moved, but earlier in this saga, didn't KA say that Eichel had not, at that point, asked for a trade?  Not asking to be argumentative, just seeing if my memory is correct.

At one point, I’m pretty sure he did. I’m pretty sure he lied.

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

He didn't specifically say it was Adams saying that, but he'd "heard" the team was thinking of rebuilding, so he went to the "team" and said he'd be unhappy w/ going in that direction.

But, it was pretty obvious that when the very 1st thing Adams does, on his 1st day, is fire most all of the front office that something ain't right in the state of Denmark.

Adams didn’t fire everyone to launch a rebuild just like Botterill wasn’t fired in order to launch a rebuild. 
That was all about being economic and efficient and Botterill not being on board.

I think a case could be made though that Jack just automatically assumed a new GM would mean some kind of reset, and that his state of mind was already considering a trade request.

1 hour ago, SDS said:

Can you say we have learned anything from Rivet, Peters, and Gionta’s comments ?

It reinforces earlier whispers that Jack wasn’t well-liked by alumni and rank-and-file staff around the team and arena.

But I don’t know that it was at all a factor in the decision to trade him.

Edited November 9, 2021 by dudacek

[K-9]

1 hour ago, SDS said:

Can you say we have learned anything from Rivet, Peters, and Gionta’s comments ?

I’d say we didn’t learn anything many people didn’t already know or at least strongly suspect. Gionta’s comments from a podcast in the summer were more illuminating, imo, and Peters and Rivet just confirmed what he said a few months prior. I mean Gionta was in that room, as captain, for two years with that core. I can’t think of anyone in a better position to know certain things. 

[SDS]

Just now, dudacek said:

At one point, I’m pretty sure he did. I’m pretty sure he lied.

Adams didn’t fire everyone to launch a rebuild just like Botterill wasn’t fired in order to launch a rebuild. 
That was all about being economic and efficient and Botterill not being on board.

I think a case could be made though that Jack just automatically assumed a new GM would mean some kind of reset, and that his state of mind was already considering a trade request.

It reinforces earlier whispers that Jack wasn’t well-liked by alumni and rank-and-file staff around the team and arena.

It seems to me, their comments are as close to insider information as we have received. Brian Gionta doesn’t come across as a smack talking backstabber. I’m surprised fans haven’t given those comments more weight.

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

I’d say we didn’t learn anything many people didn’t already know or at least strongly suspect. Gionta’s comments from a podcast in the summer were more illuminating, imo, and Peters and Rivet just confirmed what he said a few months prior. I mean Gionta was in that room, as captain, for two years with that core. I can’t think of anyone in a better position to know certain things. 

Do you know which podcast that was and approximately which episode?

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, SDS said:

It seems to me, their comments are as close to insider information as we have received. Brian Gionta doesn’t come across as a smack talking backstabber. I’m surprised fans haven’t given those comments more weight.

For me personally, the fact that Jack and Sam gravitated to Evander Kane of all people tells me who Jack was at 20. 

May have been Tim Murray’s biggest mistake.

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, SDS said:

It seems to me, their comments are as close to insider information as we have received. Brian Gionta doesn’t come across as a smack talking backstabber. I’m surprised fans haven’t given those comments more weight.

Do you know which podcast that was and approximately which episode?

I don’t remember off hand. It was one he did with his brother early summer. I’ll see if I can dig it up. Gionta didn’t name names, but it was clear he had issues with several players and didn’t like that the young players rejected his leadership and gravitated towards Kane and Bogo instead.