Jack Eichel and 2023 3rd Traded to Vegas for F Alex Tuch, C Peyton Krebs, 2022 1st Top Ten Protected and 2023 2nd

[Randall Flagg]

14 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Jack had no one to play with, other than Reinhart, O'Reilly, Dahlin, Kane,  Skinner, Hall, McGinn, Gionta, Mittelstadt, Rodriguez, Okposo....

Lol

Jack played here for six seasons. That allows for 102 potential NHL players to hit the ice alongside him in regular roles during his Sabre tenure. You came up 11, that's right, ELEVEN, from SIX YEARS, worth mentioning, and that list includes:
a.) Jamie McGinn... a mediocre 3rd liner who could score in maybe the teens but generally got caved in no matter who he was with otherwise
b.) Evan Rodrigues...enough said 
c.) Brian Gionta, whose absolute peak as a Sabre was okay 3rd liner, who you'd expect your team to have several of every year no matter how good you are
d.) whatever the hell Taylor Hall gave us last year
e.) Mittelstadt, who never once in his career played above an AHL level until weeks after Jack's last ever shift as a Sabre

 

And you think you are making any point at all? 

The Sabres were dreadful every year Jack Eichel was here, and every year you could see it coming a mile away, before the first puck drop. There was a string of 3-4 years in a row where each September I gave this team a four point window prediction of where they'd finish based on their roster, and it was in the mid to low seventies every time, and I was right every single time, and it wasn't because Jack Eichel was on the team, he was the only thing keeping those teams out of the low 60s in those years, as I point out here:

 

Like I said in the post you quoted, they were bad because they thought Eric Staal, Vlad Sobotka, and Casey Mittelstadt circa 2018 deserved to be an NHL 2C in a conference where they matched up with Malkin, Tavares, Krejci, Point etc. every night. They not only thought that, they thought that for three consecutive seasons. They were bad because they routinely made sure that 45 games of the year they'd get ECHL level goaltending, and that Risto, Gorges, Franson and Montour were staple top 4 defensemen, with much worse players than they providing support underneath them. 

But go ahead and post a tweet about Eichel saying he needs to look out for himself after he no longer feels that the team is doing what is in the best interest for his neck, which he has to live with for the rest of his life, while pretending that instead of saying that he's aloofly slandering the Sabres, "nah dawg, i aint playin here no more, sheeeeiit". The nerve of him right 

And guess what. we got rid of mean old nasty Jack, we had posters on here declaring a happy new era of working hard and comradery after starting the year 5-1-1 without him, and yet here we are, with more than twice as many losses as wins as usual, because Jack or not, we still are a garbage team with garbage leaders that do not have any clue how to build a real hockey team 

This is all stupid because I don't even care about Eichel and I couldn't care less if he won 5 cups or became a 5 goal 15 assist 4th liner the rest of his career, I just spazz out when I see the way some people react to big trades like this, I did the same thing with O'Reilly (and was also correct then, when fans were far nastier towards him) 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Randall Flagg

[Randall Flagg]

14 hours ago, Pimlach said:

What?   What was so great about 2018-2020?   It was frustrating and hopeless losing hockey?  
 

It’s about the team, not about his stats or individual plays.  

I watch hockey for fun, and wins are a huge part of that fun, but if they were everything, I would probably just hang out and wait for the box score at the end rather than watching. I care about odd man rushes in the 2nd period, I care about goalposts and drop passes and icings. I care about what I'm seeing, I want to see players use their talents to paint a hockey game on their frozen tapestry 

For the first 10 years I followed hockey, I religiously consumed highlight videos of other teams' superstars and lamented that I had never seen anyone on my team so capable with a brush in their hand. For about 2.5 seasons, I got to enjoy that. 

Like I said in the post you quoted, I will not forget it. I don't think the board has an appetite for the details, but I'll give a couple of examples just to tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about stretches of 70 points and 35 goals in ~50 games, months on end of 100+ point paces, and games like:
11/29/16 @ Ottawa, 12/13/16 vs LA, any of the Boston solo efforts/4 point games, several insane efforts vs. Toronto, 4 goals vs Ottawa, Nashville in 2016 or 2020. Moments we ask why he never gave us because we never won, the same way we asked from ROR, even though like Jack, ROR DID have them. Like Jack, we forgot ROR's moments, or didn't count them, because they never mattered. Until they did, when he had a real team around him.

 

Everyone has long forgotten those moments for Jack, and there's no point in remembering them really because it ultimately never mattered, but that doesn't mean I'm going to forget what that meant to me and how much fun I had watching him. We are losing just as much now as we did then, and I can't exactly say that this team draws my attention and enthusiasm even a fraction as much

It doesn't have to matter to you, but that stuff happened and it did matter to a lot of us 

[sabremike]

24 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Lol

Jack played here for six seasons. That allows for 102 potential NHL players to hit the ice alongside him in regular roles during his Sabre tenure. You came up 11, that's right, ELEVEN, from SIX YEARS, worth mentioning, and that list includes:
a.) Jamie McGinn... a mediocre 3rd liner who could score in maybe the teens but generally got caved in no matter who he was with otherwise
b.) Evan Rodrigues...enough said 
c.) Brian Gionta, whose absolute peak as a Sabre was okay 3rd liner, who you'd expect your team to have several of every year no matter how good you are
d.) whatever the hell Taylor Hall gave us last year
e.) Mittelstadt, who never once in his career played above an AHL level until weeks after Jack's last ever shift as a Sabre

 

And you think you are making any point at all? 

The Sabres were dreadful every year Jack Eichel was here, and every year you could see it coming a mile away, before the first puck drop. There was a string of 3-4 years in a row where each September I gave this team a four point window prediction of where they'd finish based on their roster, and it was in the mid to low seventies every time, and I was right every single time, and it wasn't because Jack Eichel was on the team, he was the only thing keeping those teams out of the low 60s in those years, as I point out here:

 

Like I said in the post you quoted, they were bad because they thought Eric Staal, Vlad Sobotka, and Casey Mittelstadt circa 2018 deserved to be an NHL 2C in a conference where they matched up with Malkin, Tavares, Krejci, Point etc. every night. They not only thought that, they thought that for three consecutive seasons. They were bad because they routinely made sure that 45 games of the year they'd get ECHL level goaltending, and that Risto, Gorges, Franson and Montour were staple top 4 defensemen, with much worse players than they providing support underneath them. 

But go ahead and post a tweet about Eichel saying he needs to look out for himself after he no longer feels that the team is doing what is in the best interest for his neck, which he has to live with for the rest of his life, while pretending that instead of saying that he's aloofly slandering the Sabres, "nah dawg, i aint playin here no more, sheeeeiit". The nerve of him right 

And guess what. we got rid of mean old nasty Jack, we had posters on here declaring a happy new era of working hard and comradery after starting the year 5-1-1 without him, and yet here we are, with more than twice as many losses as wins as usual, because Jack or not, we still are a garbage team with garbage leaders that do not have any clue how to build a real hockey team 

This is all stupid because I don't even care about Eichel and I couldn't care less if he won 5 cups or became a 5 goal 15 assist 4th liner the rest of his career, I just spazz out when I see the way some people react to big trades like this, I did the same thing with O'Reilly (and was also correct then, when fans were far nastier towards him) 

 

 

The only issue I have with this is that Jack himself told them "I want out" before the neck injury. If he hadn't done that I'd be far more sympathetic to him.

[SabresVet]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

This is all stupid because I don't even care about Eichel and I couldn't care less if he won 5 cups or became a 5 goal 15 assist 4th liner the rest of his career, I just spazz out when I see the way some people react to big trades like this, I did the same thing with O'Reilly (and was also correct then, when fans were far nastier towards him) 

Some people need a grievance to live and things just aren't good unless there's something to be angry about.  Besides, with the franchise at the lowest point in a decade plus, deflecting back to Eichel provides a convenient distraction from a bottom quartile (again) team.    

If a fan forms their identity around a pro sports team, they personalize the rejection of a player like Eichel for wanting to leave.  It's why some can't get past that he wanted out and now plays for another team.  They didn't get their pound of flesh.  Sad really.   

[Randall Flagg]

14 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

Some people need a grievance to live and things just aren't good unless there's something to be angry about.  Besides, with the franchise at the lowest point in a decade plus, deflecting back to Eichel provides a convenient distraction from a bottom quartile (again) team.    

If a fan forms their identity around a pro sports team, they personalize the rejection of a player like Eichel for wanting to leave.  It's why some can't get past that he wanted out and now plays for another team.  They didn't get their pound of flesh.  Sad really.   

I don't think it's sad, as I don't want to judge them for this, but I can't help spazzing anyway

I think there's some thoughtful psychoanalysis in here though 

[Radar]

I can understand being a fan and passionate during games but not making sports teams all that consuming in my life in general. Frankly I can appreciate individual talent but can't get that people feel a personal attachment to someone they don't even know. I wish Jack well as I do most everyone. I'd get no joy out of him not doing well. He's like anyone else. 

[Zamboni]

10 hours ago, SabresVet said:

Some people need a grievance to live and things just aren't good unless there's something to be angry about.  Besides, with the franchise at the lowest point in a decade plus, deflecting back to Eichel provides a convenient distraction from a bottom quartile (again) team.    

If a fan forms their identity around a pro sports team, they personalize the rejection of a player like Eichel for wanting to leave.  It's why some can't get past that he wanted out and now plays for another team.  They didn't get their pound of flesh.  Sad really.   

I’ve been noticing this for decades. When it comes to sports, or even just things in their lives… They aren’t happy unless there’s strife, drama, or an antagonist to yell at the cloud about.

[PASabreFan]

4 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I’ve been noticing this for decades. When it comes to sports, or even just things in their lives… They aren’t happy unless there’s strife, drama, or an antagonist to yell at the cloud about.

It's a hockey game. Relax. I go back to something Mike Schopp said when fans were cheering against the Sabres in the tank year. Some called the fans' behavior "classless." Mike said, "Classy? It's a hockey game!"

But I'm glad you've picked up LTS' mantle of positivity. Like I often told him, "You first."

[Pimlach]

10 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I watch hockey for fun, and wins are a huge part of that fun, but if they were everything, I would probably just hang out and wait for the box score at the end rather than watching. I care about odd man rushes in the 2nd period, I care about goalposts and drop passes and icings. I care about what I'm seeing, I want to see players use their talents to paint a hockey game on their frozen tapestry 

For the first 10 years I followed hockey, I religiously consumed highlight videos of other teams' superstars and lamented that I had never seen anyone on my team so capable with a brush in their hand. For about 2.5 seasons, I got to enjoy that. 

Like I said in the post you quoted, I will not forget it. I don't think the board has an appetite for the details, but I'll give a couple of examples just to tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about stretches of 70 points and 35 goals in ~50 games, months on end of 100+ point paces, and games like:
11/29/16 @ Ottawa, 12/13/16 vs LA, any of the Boston solo efforts/4 point games, several insane efforts vs. Toronto, 4 goals vs Ottawa, Nashville in 2016 or 2020. Moments we ask why he never gave us because we never won, the same way we asked from ROR, even though like Jack, ROR DID have them. Like Jack, we forgot ROR's moments, or didn't count them, because they never mattered. Until they did, when he had a real team around him.

 

Everyone has long forgotten those moments for Jack, and there's no point in remembering them really because it ultimately never mattered, but that doesn't mean I'm going to forget what that meant to me and how much fun I had watching him. We are losing just as much now as we did then, and I can't exactly say that this team draws my attention and enthusiasm even a fraction as much

It doesn't have to matter to you, but that stuff happened and it did matter to a lot of us 

I have been following Hockey very closely since 1966.  I know what you mean about the fun of seeing great plays and great players.  56 years have past since I walked out of The Aud with a free Northland hockey stick on “stick night”.  I’ve been a loyal and good  fan.   I am at the point where I just want a team that wins a Cup.  Win and all the great plays and memories will accumulate.   
 

To me, the Jack Eichel era of Sabres hockey will alway coincide with tanking, poor ownership, bad leadership, and with a historically bad on ice product.   Jack is a big time talent but reminiscing about his great rushes, passes, and goals does nothing to ease the pain of the last decade.  

[Taro T]

Interestingly, & rather disappointingly, last night's Tuch led team looked a lot like the Eichel led teams post-ROR in that with Tuch's line having an off night, none of the others could step up and pick up the slack.

When Jack was in town, if his line was shutdown, an ugly loss was the usual result.  The more things change ...

Realize it's very much a work in progress, & next year's squad should be more likely to have characters that can fill in, but nobody else being able to step up last night is probably the most disappointing part of last night's effort.  Right up there w/ wasting a good effort from Anderson & keeping a team at essentially the same spot in the standings behind them.  (They got passed for winning %age, not positive if they swapped spots for total points or not.)

[mjd1001]

14 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

Lol

Jack played here for six seasons. That allows for 102 potential NHL players to hit the ice alongside him in regular roles during his Sabre tenure. You came up 11, that's right, ELEVEN, from SIX YEARS, worth mentioning, and that list includes:
a.) Jamie McGinn... a mediocre 3rd liner who could score in maybe the teens but generally got caved in no matter who he was with otherwise
b.) Evan Rodrigues...enough said 
c.) Brian Gionta, whose absolute peak as a Sabre was okay 3rd liner, who you'd expect your team to have several of every year no matter how good you are
d.) whatever the hell Taylor Hall gave us last year
e.) Mittelstadt, who never once in his career played above an AHL level until weeks after Jack's last ever shift as a Sabre

 

And you think you are making any point at all? 

 

I actually think he has a good point. Your point is the one that is cherry-picking things.  102 potential NHL players you mention doesn't matter, when the ice time he had was not with most of those 102 players...his ice time was mostly with the 11 players he did mention compared to the 'potential' ones you bring up.

[Taro T]

16 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I actually think he has a good point. Your point is the one that is cherry-picking things.  102 potential NHL players you mention doesn't matter, when the ice time he had was not with most of those 102 players...his ice time was mostly with the 11 players he did mention compared to the 'potential' ones you bring up.

Eichel did have a lot of time at ES w/ Reinhart (after O'Reilly was punted), Kane (NOT a good fit), Skinner (a very good fit for Jeff under Housley, not so much for Jack, & not so much for either in limited time under Krueger), & Okposo (when Reinhart was w/ ROR).

Was his ice time actually mostly w/ any of those other guys?  Staal & Rodrigues rarely, if ever, were out w/ Jack.   Don't recall the others getting much time w/ him post-rookie year either.  And that rookie year it was Kane & RW du jour often.  Post ROR's departure, Eichel's normal linemates were Skinner & Pominville/ Reinhart & Olofsson & Reinhart.

So, how does that jibe with Eichel "mostly" spending his time w/ those listed originally?

And after O'Reilly left, the team had a 4th line & Eichel's line.  Lines 2 & 3 were almost always hot garbage.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Interestingly, & rather disappointingly, last night's Tuch led team looked a lot like the Eichel led teams post-ROR in that with Tuch's line having an off night, none of the others could step up and pick up the slack.

When Jack was in town, if his line was shutdown, an ugly loss was the usual result.  The more things change ...

Realize it's very much a work in progress, & next year's squad should be more likely to have characters that can fill in, but nobody else being able to step up last night is probably the most disappointing part of last night's effort.  Right up there w/ wasting a good effort from Anderson & keeping a team at essentially the same spot in the standings behind them.  (They got passed for winning %age, not positive if they swapped spots for total points or not.)

Add a healthy Mitts and Quinn, and maybe we have two good forward two lines next year.   

Edited February 18, 2022 by Pimlach

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Add a healthy Mitts and Quinn, and maybe we have good forward two lines next year.   

They should have 2 good lines (though no put fear into other teams lines) next year & a line that can be good given the right matchups.  The kids grow as we hope & it should be 3 good lines & a quality 4th line that following year.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Taro T

[PromoTheRobot]

16 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

Lol

Jack played here for six seasons. That allows for 102 potential NHL players to hit the ice alongside him in regular roles during his Sabre tenure. You came up 11, that's right, ELEVEN, from SIX YEARS, worth mentioning, and that list includes:
a.) Jamie McGinn... a mediocre 3rd liner who could score in maybe the teens but generally got caved in no matter who he was with otherwise
b.) Evan Rodrigues...enough said 
c.) Brian Gionta, whose absolute peak as a Sabre was okay 3rd liner, who you'd expect your team to have several of every year no matter how good you are
d.) whatever the hell Taylor Hall gave us last year
e.) Mittelstadt, who never once in his career played above an AHL level until weeks after Jack's last ever shift as a Sabre

 

And you think you are making any point at all? 

The Sabres were dreadful every year Jack Eichel was here, and every year you could see it coming a mile away, before the first puck drop. There was a string of 3-4 years in a row where each September I gave this team a four point window prediction of where they'd finish based on their roster, and it was in the mid to low seventies every time, and I was right every single time, and it wasn't because Jack Eichel was on the team, he was the only thing keeping those teams out of the low 60s in those years, as I point out here:

 

Like I said in the post you quoted, they were bad because they thought Eric Staal, Vlad Sobotka, and Casey Mittelstadt circa 2018 deserved to be an NHL 2C in a conference where they matched up with Malkin, Tavares, Krejci, Point etc. every night. They not only thought that, they thought that for three consecutive seasons. They were bad because they routinely made sure that 45 games of the year they'd get ECHL level goaltending, and that Risto, Gorges, Franson and Montour were staple top 4 defensemen, with much worse players than they providing support underneath them. 

But go ahead and post a tweet about Eichel saying he needs to look out for himself after he no longer feels that the team is doing what is in the best interest for his neck, which he has to live with for the rest of his life, while pretending that instead of saying that he's aloofly slandering the Sabres, "nah dawg, i aint playin here no more, sheeeeiit". The nerve of him right 

And guess what. we got rid of mean old nasty Jack, we had posters on here declaring a happy new era of working hard and comradery after starting the year 5-1-1 without him, and yet here we are, with more than twice as many losses as wins as usual, because Jack or not, we still are a garbage team with garbage leaders that do not have any clue how to build a real hockey team 

This is all stupid because I don't even care about Eichel and I couldn't care less if he won 5 cups or became a 5 goal 15 assist 4th liner the rest of his career, I just spazz out when I see the way some people react to big trades like this, I did the same thing with O'Reilly (and was also correct then, when fans were far nastier towards him) 

 

 

We get it. Poor Eichel just wanted to be the best hockey player ever and the evil Sabres owners prevented that. Oh woe is Jack. How many lashes should we give ourselves to make up for it?

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

Eichel did have a lot of time at ES w/ Reinhart (after O'Reilly was punted), Kane (NOT a good fit), Skinner (a very good fit for Jeff under Housley, not so much for Jack, & not so much for either in limited time under Krueger), & Okposo (when Reinhart was w/ ROR).

Was his ice time actually mostly w/ any of those other guys?  Staal & Rodrigues rarely, if ever, were out w/ Jack.   Don't recall the others getting much time w/ him post-rookie year either.  And that rookie year it was Kane & RW du jour often.  Post ROR's departure, Eichel's normal linemates were Skinner & Pominville/ Reinhart & Olofsson & Reinhart.

So, how does that jibe with Eichel "mostly" spending his time w/ those listed originally?

And after O'Reilly left, the team had a 4th line & Eichel's line.  Lines 2 & 3 were almost always hot garbage.

The funniest thing about Eichel is that all concern and regard for normal player development is now gone. The normal development caveats we give all players have now been removed retroactively cause people don’t want to view him that way anymore. Listing the players he played with over the course of 6 seasons pays no regard to the player *Eichel* was at the time. The willing removal of context.

Eichel was NOT always a great player. He was developing into one. Remember development? Now it’s like people picture the 2015-17 teams floundering under the leadership of Eichel (when he wasn’t captain lol) and failing to achieve great heights despite Jack’s play ie his good play was failing to elevate the roster.

Jack started to become Good in 18-19. He had an 82 point year (with no ROR and no 2C), an MVP level year with no C help, and then an injury plagued stretch his final. The demeanour he had taken on in post game interviews that had changed remarkably in this recent year or two, prior to the “disconnect”, that we all noticed and mentioned at the time (I have posted the receipts, no one cares) is now forgotten.

It’s just tired. 

I don’t share the view, but honestly the “Jack sucks because he asked out” line of thinking is IMO the most fair line of thinking I hear from that side. Totally get that. Reasonable, for a fan. The “Jack never did enough here” line of thinking is the bogus one imo.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Thorny