Goaltending this season and Beyond

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And a $4MM goalie under contract for 4 years isn't boxing anybody out.  Especially an injury prone $4MM goalie.  This team, even under Granato, showed a willingness to bury a $9MM player.  How is a $4MM goalie going to keep a kid on the bench if he outplays said $4MM goalie?  He's not.  

And, no, UPL is most likely not ready for the role he seems to be slotted into.  But that doesn't change the fact that from Adams words and actions that him being the backup to Linus was plan A.

Linus never having played even 40 games and having dealt with major leg injuries the past 2 seasons does not inspire confidence that he'd start 62 on this team which has no top pairing D-men.  Counting on Linus for more than 40 games on THIS team would be foolhardy.  Counting on Eichel for more than 70 would be as well.  Doesn't mean neither can happen, but wouldn't have money on it.

If Linus under plan A wasn't getting more than 40, somebody else was getting those games.  The plan A seems to have been to give UPL 1st crack at it.

UPL doesn't have 40 games of pro experience let alone in a single season. 

Plan A does not seem to give UPL a mythical crack and maybe 40 games if Ullmark gets injured. You conveniently forgot that the 2019 and 2020 seasons were shortened, which in essence is why Ullmark didn't hit 40 games. 

[LGR4GM]

If, and that's a big IF, Adams plan was to sign Ullmark to 5milllion (not 4) a year for 3 years so he could give UPL 30ish games as backup that's an awful plan. 

@Taro T we don't agree. I think you are wrong, you think I am wrong. Let's leave it at that. 

[triumph_communes]

Signing Ullmark to 7 years was going to be a mistake. Guy is perennial injured. There’s high hopes prospects in the system he’d tie up precious cap keeping long term. KA did the right thing. 
 

Could we have signed other UFA goalies?  With our reputation probably not. 

I think KA didn’t believe in Krueger and didn’t want to waste assets getting a goalie when it wasn’t going to change the fundamental problem. 
 

also I disagree that goalies can be ruined too early. Either you have guys who step up to challenges or you have guys coasting on their size and technique. And the latter category never wins cups. It’s always a hot goalie. Need to find goalies with that potential no matter how it goes. 

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Good Lord, it quite often is difficult to have a discussion with you.  It certainly appears that Adams' Plan A was to run with Ullmark & UPL.  Your not liking it doesn't change that.  Heck, pretty sure NOBODY here likes it.  Even went so far as to state that yours truly doesn't like it.  Saying "which stinks" when referring to Adams' plan A means that it was a bad plan.

And you once again seem to be having conversations that nobody else is having.  You "noticed" that the tangent you wanted to take the discussion wasn't addressed because you were once again ignoring what had been stated and going off into Liger World.  It was specifically stated that you would not receive a response with the earlier post until you'd responded to the question you'd been directly asked.  Impressive that you noticed what was explicitly stated.

And a $5MM goalie under contract for 4 years isn't boxing anybody out.  Especially an injury prone $5MM goalie.  This team, even under Granato, showed a willingness to bury a $9MM player.  How is a $5MM goalie going to keep a kid on the bench if he outplays said $4MM goalie?  He's not.  

And, no, UPL is most likely not ready for the role he seems to be slotted into.  But that doesn't change the fact that from Adams words and actions that him being the backup to Linus was plan A.

Linus never having played even 40 games and having dealt with major leg injuries the past 2 seasons does not inspire confidence that he'd start 62 on this team which has no top pairing D-men.  Counting on Linus for more than 40 games on THIS team would be foolhardy.  Counting on Eichel for more than 70 would be as well.  Doesn't mean neither can happen, but wouldn't have money on it.

If Linus under plan A wasn't getting more than 40, somebody else was getting those games.  The plan A seems to have been to give UPL 1st crack at it.

Didn't @Brawndo say "Terry likes UPL" earlier this offseason? That's good enough for me, considering all the other context, and the context of what we've learned about Terry over the last decade. 

You'd have to be naive at this pojnt to think UPL wasn't being penciled in for a role, that being backup, ideally, probably, to start. The "don't want to block anyone" thing certainly doesn't make sense with regards to UPL, but their decisions regarding goaltending have been off the board since Adams came on, so that's par for the course. 

The priority is the future. Adams was receptive to Ullmark returning at a specific price and term - considering the way the roster has been handled it certainly wasn't going to be enough to push the tank machine off track - but considering the priority is not winning, no sacrifice or concession on the greater priority, the future, would be made in the effort to sign him. Having two 750k scrubs manning the crease, considering the goal, was preferable to ponying up a bit more term or cash for Linus, in Adams' estimation. 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

UPL doesn't have 40 games of pro experience let alone in a single season. 

Plan A does not seem to give UPL a mythical crack and maybe 40 games if Ullmark gets injured. You conveniently forgot that the 2019 and 2020 seasons were shortened, which in essence is why Ullmark didn't hit 40 games. 

He played 20 games last year.  He was on pace to play 29 over an 82 game slate.

When he plays game 41, then will believe he can play over 40 with a real team in front of him.  Until then, it's foolhardy to plan for more than that.

And you shouting that UPL belongs in Ra-cha-cha doesn't mean that anybody here disagrees with that.  Unfortunately Adams & Granato will make that call, and it doesn't seem they agree with you.

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

If, and that's a big IF, Adams plan was to sign Ullmark to 5milllion (not 4) a year for 3 years so he could give UPL 30ish games as backup that's an awful plan. 

@Taro T we don't agree. I think you are wrong, you think I am wrong. Let's leave it at that. 

NOBODY here has said IT WAS A GOOD PLAN.

What part of that is so difficult to wrap your head around.

And Ullmark's contract was corrected 2 minutes after it was posted.  Fwiw.

[Weave]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

The priority is the future. Adams was receptive to Ullmark returning at a specific price and term - considering the way the roster has been handled it certainly wasn't going to be enough to push the tank machine off track - but considering the priority is not winning, no sacrifice or concession on the greater priority, the future, would be made in the effort to sign him. Having two 750k scrubs manning the crease, considering the goal, was preferable to ponying up a bit more term or cash for Linus, in Adams' estimation. 

The part I left above is pretty much how I’ve read the situation as well.

Frankly, I think that the 3 headed goalie monster we’ve got now is going to battle for 2 NHL spots, and I don’t think UPLs development is going to be a factor in whether he’s on Buffalo’s or Roc’s roster.  Best 2 on the big club, leftover rides the bus.  That’s what I think is KA’s plan.

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, Weave said:

The part I left above is pretty much how I’ve read the situation as well.

Frankly, I think that the 3 headed goalie monster we’ve got now is going to battle for 2 NHL spots, and I don’t think UPLs development is going to be a factor in whether he’s on Buffalo’s or Roc’s roster.  Best 2 on the big club, leftover rides the bus.  That’s what I think is KA’s plan.

Wish the 3 headed monster looked a little bit more like Fluffy than the three stooges in a 4 legged race, but yes. 

[Pimlach]

Getting back to the essence of the thread … Are there any NHL goalie options out there that fit the KA plan?  
 

Anderson is #2 backup/ mentor.   If UPL needs more time in Rochester  is there anyway to avoid Toker or Dell?   
 

This is a critical position to fill. 

[Weave]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Wish the 3 headed monster looked a little bit more like Fluffy than the three stooges in a 4 legged race, but yes. 

Everyone talking about whether KA thinks UPL is ready or if they really wanted Linus.  I think its pretty obvious all they really are looking for adequate at best goaltending and just enough talent to make sure UPL is pushed and not given an NHL job. 

[Thorny]

43 minutes ago, Weave said:

Everyone talking about whether KA thinks UPL is ready or if they really wanted Linus.  I think its pretty obvious all they really are looking for adequate at best goaltending and just enough talent to make sure UPL is pushed and not given an NHL job. 

If KA has specific parameters he's keen on sticking to, it makes a fair bit of the decision making process pretty straight forward. He didn't need to hum and haw over Ullmark because he had a specific term/$ in mind he'd simply achieve, or they'd go another route. I think he's drawn a hard line on his priorities. 

I think it's an awful strategy that we are undertaking, but there's still plenty of conversation to be had about a GM's adherence and discipline within their own chosen strategy. I can think he made a mistake in constructing the plan, yet take note of how well he adheres to/achieves the goals in said plan itself. I have no problem taking part in both discussions at the same time, but some would label lamenting the strategy at this point complaining and a waste of time. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Thorny

[Weave]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

If KA has specific parameters he's keen on sticking too, it makes a fair bit of the decision making process pretty straight forward. He didn't need to hum and haw over Ullmark because he had a specific term/$ in mind he'd simply achieve, or they'd go another route. I think he's drawn a hard line on his priorities. 

I think it's an awful strategy that we are undertaking, but there's still plenty of conversation to be had about a GM's adherence and discipline within their own chosen strategy. I can think he made a mistake in constructing the plan, yet take note of how well he adheres to/achieves the goals in said plan itself. I have no problem taking part in both discussions at the same time, but some would label lamenting the strategy at this point complaining and a waste of time. 

I don’t think it needs to be said (at least to the long timers) that I abhor this strategy.  I hated it the first time we did it.  My mind hasn’t changed this time.  I find it fascinating that there are fans thinking KA is incompetent as opposed to cold and calculating regarding the path he has chosen.

OK, maybe just one fan.  😂

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

I don’t think it needs to be said (at least to the long timers) that I abhor this strategy.  I hated it the first time we did it.  My mind hasn’t changed this time.  I find it fascinating that there are fans thinking KA is incompetent as opposed to cold and calculating regarding the path he has chosen.

OK, maybe just one fan.  😂

I would say that so far he looks to be competently executing a plan I'd argue was incompetently constructed

[Weave]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I would say that so far he looks to be competently executing a plan I'd argue was incompetently constructed

We could argue “incompetently” but it would be semantics, mostly.  The context I agree with fully.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

He's acquiring draft picks like we did in 2015 but not trading them away for crap (even though this board on mass loved it when Murray did that). 

He hasn't traded Eichel away for a NYR used jockstrap and an old pizza box. 

He didn't dump assets to Seattle like a dumb dumb. 

The Risto trade was great. 

He hired Granato which was a good move. 

He hired Karmanos which was a good move. 

He hired Ventura which was a brilliant move. 

 

His biggest failure to date is either keeping Krueger or this goaltending mess with Ullmark. 

You seem to have forgotten not getting a good backup last year, the signing of Eakin, the signing of Hall with a full NMC, the terrible returns on the Reinhart and Hall trades and over paying    of Thompson and Girgensons, the drafting of Quinn over Rossi,  etc….. That’s a giant pile of crap in such a short time.

You have no idea if Ventura or Karmanos have had a positive impact.  The Reinhart return and the goaltending situation are not positive endorsements for this allegedly upgraded administration.  

Edited August 9, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You seem to have forgotten not getting a good backup last year, the signing of Eakin, the signing of Hall with a full NMC, the terrible returns on the Reinhart and Hall trades and over paying    of Thompson and Girgensons, the drafting of Quinn over Rossi,  etc….. That’s a giant pile of crap in such a short time.

Eakin was Krueger

I think the NMC was partially how they got Hall but yes that was bad. 

Zemgus is a Terry darling

Thompson's contract... I mean okay? 

Quinn over Rossi was awful. 

So I'd say 1 maybe 2 of those is directly on Adams. Also, I believe ppl can learn from mistakes and considering he didn't sign a bunch of trash players like Eakin this year, I think he learned. 

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You have no idea if Ventura or Karmanos have had a positive impact.  The Reinhart return and thr goaltending situation are not positive endorsements for this allegedly upgraded administration.  

We've been over the GT situation. They thought they were singing Ullmark. 

Reinhart trade was meh but Buchnevich clearly shows us what the market was like. 

so my response to the bolded is this... 

Edited August 9, 2021 by LGR4GM

[Thorny]

There's one other minor, small thing on the "negative" side of Adams' 1 season tenure, thus far. I don't know if these kinds of things matter in people's evaluations of the job the GM is doing but, it should be mentioned just in case it matters, if only a little bit - the team he Generally Managed finished dead last among all of the teams Generally Managed. I'm not sure if the General Manager is accountable for the results of the team he managed, though. It's so difficult to draw a direct line between the managed and the manager, after all. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Thorny

[Peter]

4 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Worst roster? The roster isn’t bad at all. 

I think your opinion will be majority opinion soon. The goaltending is terrible but the rest of the team is good, not great, But when the losing starts everyone will blame the skaters, the coach, Dahlin, whatever. 

Having bad goaltending is like having a terrible quarterback in football, but people don’t look at it that way because QBs are flashy and make all sorts of big plays, while a good goaltender makes the saves he suppose to (boring) and a few spectacular saves. 

 

This is so true.

The only NHL quality goalie we had last year actually had a winning record . . . unfortunately he now plays the Bruins.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Peter said:

This is so true.

The only NHL quality goalie we had last year actually had a winning record . . . unfortunately he now plays the Bruins.

Which is the biggest blemish thus far on Adams resume.

 

Unless you subscribe to the theory that Adams magically figured UPL was going to play 40-50 NHL games anyways because the 4yr 5mil a year contract with Ullmark was just for funsies. 

[Thorny]

Biggest blemish on Adams' tenure thus far is a last place season.

Macro results, considering all of the innumerable variables at play that make isolating any one decision and its affect on results difficult at best, matter the most. Finishing below EVERY other team is very hard to do - it's statistically as unlikely as coming in first. Yet we talk about coming in last now not only as if it's achievable, but expected. I get it, but imagine having the ability to talk about finishing in 1st that way. It would be remarkable. The ineptitude of the Sabres is still remarkable - it's just on the other end of the spectrum. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

29 minutes ago, Thorny said:

There's one other minor, small thing on the "negative" side of Adams' 1 season tenure, thus far. I don't know if these kinds of things matter in people's evaluations of the job the GM is doing but, it should be mentioned just in case it matters, if only a little bit - the team he Generally Managed finished dead last among all of the teams Generally Managed. I'm not sure if the General Manager is accountable for the results of the team he managed, though. It's so difficult to draw a direct line between the managed and the manager, after all. 

Not really.  When we had good goaltending the team was a playoff caliber team.  When we played in front of Hutton, UPL, Tokarski, Houser etc... we were the worst team in the NHL by a wide margin.  Who failed to get an upgrade for Hutton?  KA that's who.  Had we had a better backup the team might not have spiraled into oblivion.  I don't know for sure, but the early metrics on last season were good and KA, like Jbot before him, failed to support the team and down the drain they went. 

So while it isn't a perfectly straight line, KA bares much of the blame for last season by not fixing the obvious glaring hole in net.  Just to add insult to injury he made the situation even worse this year. 

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Not really.  When we had good goaltending the team was a playoff caliber team.  When we played in front of Hutton, UPL, Tokarski, Houser etc... we were the worst team in the NHL by a wide margin.  Who failed to get an upgrade for Hutton?  KA that's who.  Had we had a better backup the team might not have spiraled into oblivion.  I don't know for sure, but the early metrics on last season were good and KA, like Jbot before him, failed to support the team and down the drain they went. 

So while it isn't a perfectly straight line, KA bares much of the blame for last season by not fixing the obvious glaring hole in net.  Just to add insult to injury he made the situation even worse this year. 

It was sarcasm 

[Drag0nDan]

36 minutes ago, Thorny said:

There's one other minor, small thing on the "negative" side of Adams' 1 season tenure, thus far. I don't know if these kinds of things matter in people's evaluations of the job the GM is doing but, it should be mentioned just in case it matters, if only a little bit - the team he Generally Managed finished dead last among all of the teams Generally Managed. I'm not sure if the General Manager is accountable for the results of the team he managed, though. It's so difficult to draw a direct line between the managed and the manager, after all. 

Considering the struggles with Kruegers system, and just an absurd number of lost games to injuries, I don't know how I'd feel putting that on Adams.

Eichel, Cozens, McCabe, Girgensons, Ullmark, Okposo all missed a ton of games.  Add in a really long covid protocol issue, and a few players who were clearly negatively affected by it.  Just an absolute disaster of a year on the health front.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

It was sarcasm 

Gotcha!  I figured as much, but had to be sure.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Getting back to the essence of the thread … Are there any NHL goalie options out there that fit the KA plan?  
 

Anderson is #2 backup/ mentor.   If UPL needs more time in Rochester  is there anyway to avoid Toker or Dell?   
 

This is a critical position to fill. 

Here is the list of UFA goalies.  The top part are signed and the bottom part are still available.

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/free-agents/goaltender/ufa/

Bernier, maybe.  Dubnyk, maybe.