Goaltending this season and Beyond

[JohnC]

37 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think he is under the delusion that UPL is ready or nearly so.  His numbers say otherwise.

He’ll bring in someone for the ECHL if they have a season.  

Why do you believe that the GM considers UPL ready for full time play in the NHL? As @LGR4GMpointed out a more than fair offer was made to Ullmark for an extended term (4 yrs) at an average of $4 M per year. If that is the case then it surely demonstrated that the intention was for Ullmark to be our #1 goalie. As I have stated in prior posts I thought it was a mistake for the Sabres not to sign Ullmark. After learning that Ullmark wanted more from the Sabres than from Boston from a salary and term standpoint I altered my position. I now firmly believe that the organization was prudent in not willing to go beyond the reasonable contract boundaries for a player of his caliber. And I'll go further in saying the in exercising financial discipline in the Ullmark negotiation the GM demonstrated that the organization is now going to be more prudent in handling contracts than it previously has. 

I, like you, believe that the our goaltending situation as it currently stands is inadequate. And I'm hoping that there will be some goalie options opening up in the market as the season approaches. If it doesn't I will be very disappointed. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

46 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't think he thinks that at all. You don't try to sign Ullmark if you think UPL is ready or nearly ready. 

Yes you do.  UPL comes in as the back up for a few years and then Ullmark and his contract be traded when UPL is fully ready to be the starter 

[Taro T]

47 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't think he thinks that at all. You don't try to sign Ullmark if you think UPL is ready or nearly ready. 

Actually, considering teams that want to succeed in the NHL need 2 good goalies, it is very possible that Adams wanted Ullmark as the starter and also believes UPL is nearly ready/ready and thought he'd be OK with UPL as the NHL backup.  

Evidence that winning isn't a priority this season is overwhelming, so having Ullmark play 30 - 40 games before breaking while keeping the team close to the playoff hunt with UPL getting the bulk of the games after Linus breaks increasing the odds of winning the Wright derby while giving UPL NHL experience seems to have been the Plan A.  Which stinks.  And it makes it very debatable whether Adams believes that a top notch goalie is necessary.  And since he won a Stanley Cup with Cam Ward and Martin friggin' Gerber, he could definitely see goaltending as something that just needs to be middle of the pack.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yes you do.  UPL comes in as the back up for a few years and then Ullmark and his contract be traded when UPL is fully ready to be the starter 

If the scenario happens as you described then what would be the problem with that? If UPL demonstrates in training camp that he can handle the backup role then so be it. Most of us believe that UPL will start the season in Rochester but it is not out of the realm of possibility that he earns a roster spot. Will it be the best course for his development to be a NHL backup compared to playing full-time in the AHL? My preference is for him to be a full-time player in the lower league. But it's not unusual that a few surprising developments happen when players compete in camp. 

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yes you do.  UPL comes in as the back up for a few years and then Ullmark and his contract be traded when UPL is fully ready to be the starter 

You are proving my point. If Adams thought UPL was ready, he would not be planning on him being a backup for 20 games to Ullmark for a couple of years. That doesn't mean ready to me and considering Adams stance on not bringing in vets that stop the kids from getting chances, doesn't seem like Adams feels UPL is ready. 

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Actually, considering teams that want to succeed in the NHL need 2 good goalies, it is very possible that Adams wanted Ullmark as the starter and also believes UPL is nearly ready/ready and thought he'd be OK with UPL as the NHL backup.  

Evidence that winning isn't a priority this season is overwhelming, so having Ullmark play 30 - 40 games before breaking while keeping the team close to the playoff hunt with UPL getting the bulk of the games after Linus breaks increasing the odds of winning the Wright derby while giving UPL NHL experience seems to have been the Plan A.  Which stinks.  And it makes it very debatable whether Adams believes that a top notch goalie is necessary.  And since he won a Stanley Cup with Cam Ward and Martin friggin' Gerber, he could definitely see goaltending as something that just needs to be middle of the pack.

It really doesn't. It goes contrary what he's said about letting the kids get chances. 20 games as a backup is not much of a chance compared to 55-60 games in Rochester as the guy. 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You are proving my point. If Adams thought UPL was ready, he would not be planning on him being a backup for 20 games to Ullmark for a couple of years. That doesn't mean ready to me and considering Adams stance on not bringing in vets that stop the kids from getting chances, doesn't seem like Adams feels UPL is ready. 

It really doesn't. It goes contrary what he's said about letting the kids get chances. 20 games as a backup is not much of a chance compared to 55-60 games in Rochester as the guy. 

How do you get from "having Ullmark play 30-40 games" to UPL getting only 20?  Who would've gotten the other 22-32 starts?

Really don't see how having UPL up as the backup to an injury prone starter is "blocking" his development/ opportunities.

[LGR4GM]

18 minutes ago, Taro T said:

How do you get from "having Ullmark play 30-40 games" to UPL getting only 20?  Who would've gotten the other 22-32 starts?

Really don't see how having UPL up as the backup to an injury prone starter is "blocking" his development/ opportunities.

You don't see how signing a 5mil dollar gt to a 4 year extension blocks the development of UPL? 

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You don't see how signing a 5mil dollar gt to a 4 year extension blocks the development of UPL? 

Address him only playing 20 games in Liger World with Ullmark only being expected to play 30-40 games and then we can move on to other items.

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Address him only playing 20 games in Liger World with Ullmark only being expected to play 30-40 games and then we can move on to other items.

That was some random belief you had backed up by nothing that makes even less sense. We would tell Ullmark he will be the starter and pay him as thus and then just bench him after 30 games? Taro World sounds confused. It also ignores the other 3 years of his deal. 

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

That was some random belief you had backed up by nothing that makes even less sense. We would tell Ullmark he will be the starter and pay him as thus and then just bench him after 30 games? Taro World sounds confused. It also ignores the other 3 years of his deal. 

You bringing up "random beliefs" is rich.

Didn't say he would be benched after 30-40 games.  But, you should be able to read that yourself.  (Should being the operative word there. 😉 )

[GASabresIUFAN]

22 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Address him only playing 20 games in Liger World with Ullmark only being expected to play 30-40 games and then we can move on to other items.

I agree.  the natural progression is from AHL starter to NHL backup to NHL starter.  It's what Ullmark did.  Signing a 28 year old injury prone goalie to be your starter makes it likely that the backup may ultimately share the net 50/50.  Also it seems we are defining "ready" differently.  In Liger world "ready" means NHL starter.  For most of the rest of us "ready" means ready to be a contributing NHL player.  

No one, not even KA, thinks that UPL is ready to be an NHL starter.  I think most of us agree that it would be better for UPL's development if he played in the AHL all season as a starter.  However KA is the GM and makes those decisions. 

I think he is working under 2 main mandates from above. First save money and second play the kids.  Therefore he has traded away or will trade away his most marketable big contract players (Risto, Reinhart and soon Jack) to save money.  He also signed bargain bin FAs in another cost saving option and refuses to "trade assets"  to fill holes on his current roster in case they might block one of the kids.

So how does making a run at keeping Ullmark fit it?  First we played playoff caliber hockey with him in net.  If he had returned, we would be much more competitive and while still being cheap cab wise.  How?  Once the RFAs are signed we'll be at about 63 mill.  Trade Jack for futures and we suddenly become 7 mill under the cap floor.  If he had paid Ullmark 5 mill, that eliminates most of that shortfall.  Had he signed Ullmark the door would still be open for UPL to seize the 1B role if ready to be an NHL goalie.

So plan B was to forget about being competitive and swing open the door wide open for UPL to seize an NHL job under the play the kids mandate. To execute this plan KA brought in 2 veteran goalies on nothing contracts that are easily jettisoned if UPL proves ready. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I agree.  the natural progression is from AHL starter to NHL backup to NHL starter.  It's what Ullmark did.  Signing a 28 year old injury prone goalie to be your starter makes it likely that the backup may ultimately share the net 50/50.  Also it seems we are defining "ready" differently.  In Liger world "ready" means NHL starter.  For most of the rest of us "ready" means ready to be a contributing NHL player.  

No one, not even KA, thinks that UPL is ready to be an NHL starter.  I think most of us agree that it would be better for UPL's development if he played in the AHL all season as a starter.  However KA is the GM and makes those decisions. 

I think he is working under 2 main mandates from above. First save money and second play the kids.  Therefore he has traded away or will trade away his most marketable big contract players (Risto, Reinhart and soon Jack) to save money.  He also signed bargain bin FAs in another cost saving option and refuses to "trade assets"  to fill holes on his current roster in case they might block one of the kids.

So how does making a run at keeping Ullmark fit it?  First we played playoff caliber hockey with him in net.  If he had returned, we would be much more competitive and while still being cheap cab wise.  How?  Once the RFAs are signed we'll be at about 63 mill.  Trade Jack for futures and we suddenly become 7 mill under the cap floor.  If he had paid Ullmark 5 mill, that eliminates most of that shortfall.  Had he signed Ullmark the door would still be open for UPL to seize the 1B role if ready to be an NHL goalie.

So plan B was to forget about being competitive and swing open the door wide open for UPL to seize an NHL job under the play the kids mandate. To execute this plan KA brought in 2 veteran goalies on nothing contracts that are easily jettisoned if UPL proves ready. 

UPL is not ready by either definition. He has barely been an AHL starter and never for a full season. 

UPL hype is almost at the Power hype train level. Completely disconnected from the reality of what the player currently is. 

[LGR4GM]

25 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You bringing up "random beliefs" is rich.

Didn't say he would be benched after 30-40 games.  But, you should be able to read that yourself.  (Should being the operative word there. 😉 )

Your suggestion was bad. You can either admit that or not. Speaking of which I noticed you didn't respond to what I was saying. You just forced your idea of 30-40 games and a mythical break/injury in and went on your way. Now we have reached the condescending portion of your responses, so it's like most of the cycles. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by LGR4GM

[GASabresIUFAN]

On 8/8/2021 at 1:15 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don't think UPL will be ready for even back up duty in the NHL for at least another season.

I also wonder if KA made an offer to another scrap heap goalie Devyn Dubnyk?  He's got to be better then Tokarski or Dell.

 

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think he is under the delusion that UPL is ready or nearly so.  His numbers say otherwise.

He’ll bring in someone for the ECHL if they have a season.  

 

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

UPL is not ready by either definition. He has barely been an AHL starter and never for a full season. 

UPL hype is almost at the Power hype train level. Completely disconnected from the reality of what the player currently is. 

I agree the UPL isn't ready by any definition.  I've even called KA delusional for thinking UPL is ready for NHL duty. However your opinion and mine do mean squat if KA thinks he is ready or nearly ready. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Actually, considering teams that want to succeed in the NHL need 2 good goalies, it is very possible that Adams wanted Ullmark as the starter and also believes UPL is nearly ready/ready and thought he'd be OK with UPL as the NHL backup.  

Evidence that winning isn't a priority this season is overwhelming, so having Ullmark play 30 - 40 games before breaking while keeping the team close to the playoff hunt with UPL getting the bulk of the games after Linus breaks increasing the odds of winning the Wright derby while giving UPL NHL experience seems to have been the Plan A.  Which stinks.  And it makes it very debatable whether Adams believes that a top notch goalie is necessary.  And since he won a Stanley Cup with Cam Ward and Martin friggin' Gerber, he could definitely see goaltending as something that just needs to be middle of the pack.

You just assumed Ullmark will break/get injured. I don't think that's fair and I don't think Adams would leave that up to chance so his prize goalie can get some starts. 

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

 

I agree the UPL isn't ready by any definition.  I've even called KA delusional for thinking UPL is ready for NHL duty. However your opinion and mine do mean squat if KA thinks he is ready or nearly ready. 

He clearly does not think he is ready. If he thought UPL was ready, he would not have tried to sign Ullmark as a starter. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You just assumed Ullmark will break/get injured. I don't think that's fair and I don't think Adams would leave that up to chance so his prize goalie can get some starts. 

He clearly does not think he is ready. If he thought UPL was ready, he would not have tried to sign Ullmark as a starter. 

This is where you are wrong.  Signing Ullmark does nothing to prevent UPL from making the NHL if he is ready.  I understand you'd rather have him start in the AHL.  However management may think it's better to play as a backup in the NHL.  If UPL is eventually ready to be the starter then you can always trade Ullmark. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This is where you are wrong.  Signing Ullmark does nothing to prevent UPL from making the NHL if he is ready.  I understand you'd rather have him start in the AHL.  However management may think it's better to play as a backup in the NHL.  

This does not make sense and goes against almost everything we have heard from Adams. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This does not make sense and goes against almost everything we have heard from Adams. 

Adams specifically said if UPL proves ready to be in the NHL he'll be in the NHL.  

Edited August 9, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Adams specifically said is UPL proves ready to be in the NHL he'll be in the NHL.  

He said Power could be on the team too. UPL is not going to be the Sabres backup, it just is not going to happen if Adams has any brains in his head. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

He said Power could be on the team too. UPL is not going to be the Sabres backup, it just is not going to happen if Adams has any brains in his head. 

What actions by KA during his tenure other then maybe the Risto trade has illustrated that KA has any idea what he is doing?

[LGR4GM]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What actions by KA during his tenure other then maybe the Risto trade has illustrated that KA has any idea what he is doing?

He's acquiring draft picks like we did in 2015 but not trading them away for crap (even though this board on mass loved it when Murray did that). 

He hasn't traded Eichel away for a NYR used jockstrap and an old pizza box. 

He didn't dump assets to Seattle like a dumb dumb. 

The Risto trade was great. 

He hired Granato which was a good move. 

He hired Karmanos which was a good move. 

He hired Ventura which was a brilliant move. 

 

His biggest failure to date is either keeping Krueger or this goaltending mess with Ullmark. 

[Taro T]

43 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Your suggestion was bad. You can either admit that or not. Speaking of which I noticed you didn't respond to what I was saying. You just forced your idea of 30-40 games and a mythical break/injury in and went on your way. Now we have reached the condescending portion of your responses, so it's like most of the cycles. 

Good Lord, it quite often is difficult to have a discussion with you.  It certainly appears that Adams' Plan A was to run with Ullmark & UPL.  Your not liking it doesn't change that.  Heck, pretty sure NOBODY here likes it.  Even went so far as to state that yours truly doesn't like it.  Saying "which stinks" when referring to Adams' plan A means that it was a bad plan.

And you once again seem to be having conversations that nobody else is having.  You "noticed" that the tangent you wanted to take the discussion wasn't addressed because you were once again ignoring what had been stated and going off into Liger World.  It was specifically stated that you would not receive a response with the earlier post until you'd responded to the question you'd been directly asked.  Impressive that you noticed what was explicitly stated.

And a $5MM goalie under contract for 4 years isn't boxing anybody out.  Especially an injury prone $5MM goalie.  This team, even under Granato, showed a willingness to bury a $9MM player.  How is a $5MM goalie going to keep a kid on the bench if he outplays said $4MM goalie?  He's not.  

And, no, UPL is most likely not ready for the role he seems to be slotted into.  But that doesn't change the fact that from Adams words and actions that him being the backup to Linus was plan A.

Linus never having played even 40 games and having dealt with major leg injuries the past 2 seasons does not inspire confidence that he'd start 62 on this team which has no top pairing D-men.  Counting on Linus for more than 40 games on THIS team would be foolhardy.  Counting on Eichel for more than 70 would be as well.  Doesn't mean neither can happen, but wouldn't have money on it.

If Linus under plan A wasn't getting more than 40, somebody else was getting those games.  The plan A seems to have been to give UPL 1st crack at it.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Taro T
$5, not $4

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Worst roster? The roster isn’t bad at all. 

I think your opinion will be majority opinion soon. The goaltending is terrible but the rest of the team is good, not great, But when the losing starts everyone will blame the skaters, the coach, Dahlin, whatever. 

Having bad goaltending is like having a terrible quarterback in football, but people don’t look at it that way because QBs are flashy and make all sorts of big plays, while a good goaltender makes the saves he suppose to (boring) and a few spectacular saves. 

 

Isn't the implication of "good" above average? That's a solidly in-the-playoffs team. A last place roster minus Reinhart and Risto is "good'? 

IMO a good goalie would be enough to keep this team in games they'd eventually lose, but the position isn't holding a good team back from being in the playoffs. 

Even Ullmark, the best goalie who was available, did *not* contrary to popular belief have the team playing at a "playoff pace" for a short stretch, I believe they played at a pace, with Reinhart, of around 90 points. Playoffs is usually around 95. 

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Good Lord, it quite often is difficult to have a discussion with you.  It certainly appears that Adams' Plan A was to run with Ullmark & UPL.  Your not liking it doesn't change that.  Heck, pretty sure NOBODY here likes it.  Even went so far as to state that yours truly doesn't like it.  Saying "which stinks" when referring to Adams' plan A means that it was a bad plan.

And you once again seem to be having conversations that nobody else is having.  You "noticed" that the tangent you wanted to take the discussion wasn't addressed because you were once again ignoring what had been stated and going off into Liger World.  It was specifically stated that you would not receive a response with the earlier post until you'd responded to the question you'd been directly asked.  Impressive that you noticed what was explicitly stated.

And a $4MM goalie under contract for 4 years isn't boxing anybody out.  Especially an injury prone $4MM goalie.  This team, even under Granato, showed a willingness to bury a $9MM player.  How is a $4MM goalie going to keep a kid on the bench if he outplays said $4MM goalie?  He's not.  

And, no, UPL is most likely not ready for the role he seems to be slotted into.  But that doesn't change the fact that from Adams words and actions that him being the backup to Linus was plan A.

Linus never having played even 40 games and having dealt with major leg injuries the past 2 seasons does not inspire confidence that he'd start 62 on this team which has no top pairing D-men.  Counting on Linus for more than 40 games on THIS team would be foolhardy.  Counting on Eichel for more than 70 would be as well.  Doesn't mean neither can happen, but wouldn't have money on it.

If Linus under plan A wasn't getting more than 40, somebody else was getting those games.  The plan A seems to have been to give UPL 1st crack at it.

Condescending assholery. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

It's hard to have a conversation with considering the condescension and down talking that occurs. 

There was no condescension until you refused to answer a question.

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Condescending assholery. 

You are a very funny man.