Official Jason Karmanos Hired as Sabres Associate GM

[Mustache of God]

8 minutes ago, Curt said:

Unfortunately, yes.  Players with a NMC are required to be protected.

Not that I expect this to even be a possibility, but what if Skinner was willing to waive that and allow himself to be exposed if Seattle wanted him. Does the CBA allow that scenario?

Edited March 31, 2021 by Mustache of God

[LGR4GM]

Just now, Mustache of God said:

Not that I expect this to even be a possibility, but what if Skinner was willing to waive that and allow himself to be exposed if Seattle wanted him. Does the CBA allow that scenario?

Sure but he won't. he's from Ontario, this is as close to home as he can play without being in Toronto. 

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Eggs-actly.

For the zillionth time:  the point of the tank was to end up with a winning team -- NOT just to end up with a star player.  The misguided souls who supported the tank did so because they thought, wrongly, that getting a star player was the surest path to developing a winning team.  The wise ones who opposed the tank knew that really bad teams usually stay in the basement -- they don't just pop down to pick up a bottle of champagne and then pop back up to become the life of the party.

Also, Dahlin was not part of the tank.  The Sabres were trying to be good that year -- they just failed miserably due to incompetence at GM and HC.

Lay out your plan then. 

[Marvin]

32 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Lay out your plan then. 

You're on.

First, I want a clearly competitive team.  Therefore, when I unload my assets, I load up on picks, projects, passable NHLers, etc. with high character.  I do not sign wastes of roster space.  I hope that ALL of the younger players I acquire are good enough to be with the team within 3 years.  My model is the 1995-6 Sabres.

In 2013-4, I expect to trade Vanek, Ott, and Miller.   I find veterans to keep Zemgus Girgensons, Johann Larsson, Nikita Zadorov, Rasmus Ristolainen, Nathan Lieuwen, Phil Varone, Jake McCabe, and Connor Knapp out of the NHL.  I don't trade Andrei Sekera.  I don't make the Brayden McNabb trade.  I save all my picks and only move around the draft strategically.

In 2014-5, I expect to trade Stafford.  I never waste $6M of my boss's money on Meszaros, Benoit, and Strachan; I look for far better depth players.  Again, none of the young players above gets to the NHL unless the team is not threatening the basement or the players are so good that I don't have a choice.  I don't make the Evander Kane trade.  I never, ever, ever undermine my coach and players with talk about McDavid.  I squash "embrace the tank" every chance I get.  I go on WGR and tell them why a rebuild with the target of great ensemble play is better than an all-out tank.  I coach fans who dislike the tank how to counter idiocy that they are selfish, hate the team, hate their fellow fans, are complete unadulterated losers, etc.  I don't trade away goaltenders who are winning; indeed, when we creep to within 4 points of a playoff spot, I tell the team that if they keep it up and are within 2 points of a playoff spot at the deadline, I will try to get some long-term help.

In the draft, there will be clear 1st round talents in other drafts who could still be available in round 3.  I husband my resources to draft as many players as I can.  I don't move the basket of players for ROR.  I try and sign some more youngish players with grit and talent.

Here, I don't have to be perfect at every step of the way.  I also have a sound foundation with an organisational philosophy of, "I don't care if we are rebuilding.  I want us to win.  And if you play suffer through the rebuild and play well enough, your reward will be to enjoy the good years as much as we can."

Of all the coaches to get after The Tank, I don't know how much worse we could have done for the potential young depth players and DDB.  He is notoriously horrible with younger players.  Ted Nolan would have been infinitely preferable to DDB and many other coaches preferable to Nolan.

I hated the tank from a philosophical viewpoint.  I hated more its defenders who told me I am not a Sabres fan for wanting the team to win.  I hated even more the jerks in the media who gave them the licence to bad mouth me at the games, pour beer over my turban when I cheered for a goal, or punch me when I smiled after a win.

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

You're on.

First, I want a clearly competitive team.  Therefore, when I unload my assets, I load up on picks, projects, passable NHLers, etc. with high character.  I do not sign wastes of roster space.  I hope that ALL of the younger players I acquire are good enough to be with the team within 3 years.  My model is the 1995-6 Sabres.

In 2013-4, I expect to trade Vanek, Ott, and Miller.   I find veterans to keep Zemgus Girgensons, Johann Larsson, Nikita Zadorov, Rasmus Ristolainen, Nathan Lieuwen, Phil Varone, Jake McCabe, and Connor Knapp out of the NHL.  I don't trade Andrei Sekera.  I don't make the Brayden McNabb trade.  I save all my picks and only move around the draft strategically.

In 2014-5, I expect to trade Stafford.  I never waste $6M of my boss's money on Meszaros, Benoit, and Strachan; I look for far better depth players.  Again, none of the young players above gets to the NHL unless the team is not threatening the basement or the players are so good that I don't have a choice.  I don't make the Evander Kane trade.  I never, ever, ever undermine my coach and players with talk about McDavid.  I squash "embrace the tank" every chance I get.  I go on WGR and tell them why a rebuild with the target of great ensemble play is better than an all-out tank.  I coach fans who dislike the tank how to counter idiocy that they are selfish, hate the team, hate their fellow fans, are complete unadulterated losers, etc.  I don't trade away goaltenders who are winning; indeed, when we creep to within 4 points of a playoff spot, I tell the team that if they keep it up and are within 2 points of a playoff spot at the deadline, I will try to get some long-term help.

In the draft, there will be clear 1st round talents in other drafts who could still be available in round 3.  I husband my resources to draft as many players as I can.  I don't move the basket of players for ROR.  I try and sign some more youngish players with grit and talent.

Here, I don't have to be perfect at every step of the way.  I also have a sound foundation with an organisational philosophy of, "I don't care if we are rebuilding.  I want us to win.  And if you play suffer through the rebuild and play well enough, your reward will be to enjoy the good years as much as we can."

Of all the coaches to get after The Tank, I don't know how much worse we could have done for the potential young depth players and DDB.  He is notoriously horrible with younger players.  Ted Nolan would have been infinitely preferable to DDB and many other coaches preferable to Nolan.

I hated the tank from a philosophical viewpoint.  I hated more its defenders who told me I am not a Sabres fan for wanting the team to win.  I hated even more the jerks in the media who gave them the licence to bad mouth me at the games, pour beer over my turban when I cheered for a goal, or punch me when I smiled after a win.

Okay, and where are we today then after you execute your plan? Who our your top players? 

See as we go down this revisionist road, we can simply say "well if we didn't tank, we wouldn't be here". 

[PromoTheRobot]

Has there been any actual news on this front?

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Has there been any actual news on this front?

Quiet.  Very quiet.  I don't think money would be the issue.  I have a feeling that if Rutherford is coming aboard, his demands in terms of his level of power, and/or the level of involvement by ownership may be the sticking points.

[Archie Lee]

20 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Quiet.  Very quiet.  I don't think money would be the issue.  I have a feeling that if Rutherford is coming aboard, his demands in terms of his level of power, and/or the level of involvement by ownership may be the sticking points.

Rutherford resigned from the Penguins. I heard him interviewed a few weeks ago and he implied that he would be unable to join another team until his contract was up in June. He may not be able to formally join a team yet. 

[Marvin]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Okay, and where are we today then after you execute your plan? Who our your top players? 

See as we go down this revisionist road, we can simply say "well if we didn't tank, we wouldn't be here". 

When the Sabres rebuilt in 1995-6, who knew that, aside from Hasek, that the top player would be Mike Peca?  I totally disagree with the premise of your question.  Having said that, I will still answer it.

I don't know.  There is no guarantee that my method always works.  The Scouts and management could still be incompetent dolts who find me Adam Creighton and Paul Cyr without the decent players that we got at the same time.  You are correct, thought, that I don't have Eichel.  But, with all those picks, maybe I have all of Point, Larkin, Barzal, Boeser, Aho, and Kyrou.  I certainly have the draft picks to do that.  Yes, I am being a jerk.  All I know is that the odds of icing a decent team before 2020 are up are much higher.  I never would have had a time where losing was acceptable.  I would not have undermined the coaches and players.  That automatically makes my odds better even if I don't get any of the top of the top players.  If I do well -- not even mind-blowingly well -- the Sabres are most like LGVK.

NOTE 1: IMHO, even with the tank, not making the Evander Kane, not uselessly making the Brandon McNabb trade (both just wasted assets, IMHO), and not hiring DDB would have made the team better so that we are not even debating this point and are wondering whom we are likely to play in the playoffs.  And I would be here thinking, "I wouldn't have tanked, but nothing succeeds like success.  So whatever I think of the philosophy, at least the stink of the tank is gone."

NOTE 2: IMHO, if GMJB does not undermine the 2018-9 team by not helping them after their winning streak (3 first rounders and you can't do *anything*?) and then denigrating their play after the TDL, we probably have players who believe in themselves more and aren't playing this horribly, even with the adversity.  And it would have gone better if he had not wanted to trade ROR for months before 1 July 2018.  And again, I would be thinking the same thing as in Note 1.

So even as badly as the Sabres have done since the tank, it could still have turned out OK.  I just think that in my method, we almost could not become as shambolically horrible as we are now.

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

When the Sabres rebuilt in 1995-6, who knew that, aside from Hasek, that the top player would be Mike Peca?  I totally disagree with the premise of your question.  Having said that, I will still answer it.

I don't know.  There is no guarantee that my method always works.  The Scouts and management could still be incompetent dolts who find me Adam Creighton and Paul Cyr without the decent players that we got at the same time.  You are correct, thought, that I don't have Eichel.  But, with all those picks, maybe I have all of Point, Larkin, Barzal, Boeser, Aho, and Kyrou.  I certainly have the draft picks to do that.  Yes, I am being a jerk.  All I know is that the odds of icing a decent team before 2020 are up are much higher.  I never would have had a time where losing was acceptable.  I would not have undermined the coaches and players.  That automatically makes my odds better even if I don't get any of the top of the top players.  If I do well -- not even mind-blowingly well -- the Sabres are most like LGVK.

NOTE 1: IMHO, even with the tank, not making the Evander Kane, not uselessly making the Brandon McNabb trade (both just wasted assets, IMHO), and not hiring DDB would have made the team better so that we are not even debating this point and are wondering whom we are likely to play in the playoffs.  And I would be here thinking, "I wouldn't have tanked, but nothing succeeds like success.  So whatever I think of the philosophy, at least the stink of the tank is gone."

NOTE 2: IMHO, if GMJB does not undermine the 2018-9 team by not helping them after their winning streak (3 first rounders and you can't do *anything*?) and then denigrating their play after the TDL, we probably have players who believe in themselves more and aren't playing this horribly, even with the adversity.  And it would have gone better if he had not wanted to trade ROR for months before 1 July 2018.  And again, I would be thinking the same thing as in Note 1.

So even as badly as the Sabres have done since the tank, it could still have turned out OK.  I just think that in my method, we almost could not become as shambolically horrible as we are now.

Maybe, we can't know that. Just like we can't know what would have happened if we kept ROR and Calvin Peterson didn't go to LA. I just tanked, fixed 2 mistakes and made us a playoff team. 

[LGR4GM]

Which really is the entire point. We can't know and constantly suggesting that if we only hadn't tanked we would be better right now is a fools errand. 

[Randall Flagg]

I would bet everything i own that we wouldn't be pacing for 40 points over 82 games in 2021-22 had we not destroyed our roster to lose as much as possible on purpose for 164 consecutive games in the mid 2010s

 

 

[PASabreFan]

Mogilny ended up yielding Peca, McKee and Warrener. That one, ostensibly a salary dump, worked out pretty well. Actually, Muckler was honest about short-term suffering in 95-96 but said the rebuild would be a fast one. He then predicted, after getting shitcanned, that the Sabres would win a Cup within a few years. So close!

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

I would bet everything i own that we wouldn't be pacing for 40 points over 82 games in 2021-22 had we not destroyed our roster to lose as much as possible on purpose for 164 consecutive games in the mid 2010s

I'd bet everything I own that with a healthy Eichel, Ullmark, and McCabe we wouldn't be pacing at that either. 

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Maybe, we can't know that. Just like we can't know what would have happened if we kept ROR and Calvin Peterson didn't go to LA. I just tanked, fixed 2 mistakes and made us a playoff team. 

I know.  Even with The Tank, if we only do a couple fewer things wrong, we probably are a playoff team.

There is an old saying: "The race may not always go to the swift, nor the fight to the strong -- but you are an idiot if that's not how you bet."  My philosophy is that the odds are better the way I do it.  I don't claim that tanking does not work -- ask the Penguins, for instance.  I merely claim that I like my odds better if I don't do an all-out tank.

And even if you do everything right, you might still be missing one of your top centres and 4 of your top defencemen in Game 7.

[SDS]

2 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I know.  Even with The Tank, if we only do a couple fewer things wrong, we probably are a playoff team.

There is an old saying: "The race may not always go to the swift, nor the fight to the strong -- but you are an idiot if that's not how you bet."  My philosophy is that the odds are better the way I do it.  I don't claim that tanking does not work -- ask the Penguins, for instance.  I merely claim that I like my odds better if I don't do an all-out tank.

And even if you do everything right, you might still be missing one of your top centres and 4 of your top defencemen in Game 7.

Your odds are better if you model your team build after a 25-year-old team? 🤔

If that team were music it would already be relegated to a classic music genre and listened by people intently monitoring their 401(k) accounts.

[Randall Flagg]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I'd bet everything I own that with a healthy Eichel, Ullmark, and McCabe we wouldn't be pacing at that either. 

And I'd still bet everything I own that the team in my scenario would do better missing their 1C for 11 games, their 1G for a month, and their 4D for the season as well. These are hardly unprecedented injuries.

[Marvin]

9 minutes ago, SDS said:

Your odds are better if you model your team build after a 25-year-old team? 🤔

If that team were music it would already be relegated to a classic music genre and listened by people intently monitoring their 401(k) accounts.

Am I totally unclear, or are you being deliberately obtuse?  I use that team as an example because everyone on that team was at least a borderline NHL-er and I could expect that people would have more intimate understanding of the line-up, how they grew, etc..

Better examples are the 1973-4 New York Islanders, the 1985-6 Calgary Flames, Jim Schoenfeld's New Jersey Devils leading towards the 1995 team, the 1993-4 Vancouver Canucks, or the long, slow build of the Detroit Red Wings, but I assumed that people were better acquainted with the Sabres history.  If I am mistaken, then I apologise.  I just did not want to explain the player movements, why they worked. etc.  No luck, just good team building.

I am just trying to bring a deeper philosophical idea for non-tanking to everyone.  If you don't think this is welcome here, I will leave the board and not lurk as you desire.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Marvin, Sabres Fan

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Am I totally unclear, or are you being deliberately obtuse?  I use that team as an example because everyone on that team was at least a borderline NHL-er and I could expect that people would have more intimate understanding of the line-up, how they grew, etc..

Better examples are the 1973-4 New York Islanders, the 1985-6 Calgary Flames, Jim Schoenfeld's New Jersey Devils leading towards the 1995 team, the 1993-4 Vancouver Canucks, or the long, slow build of the Detroit Red Wings, but I assumed that people were better acquainted with the Sabres history.  If I am mistaken, then I apologise.  I just did not want to explain the player movements, why they worked. etc.  No luck, just good team building.

In our modern technological paradise, nothing can be compared to the past. We have ascended, and everything from before this century, be it tangible or ideological, is moot and void 

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

And I'd still bet everything I own that the team in my scenario would do better missing their 1C for 11 games, their 1G for a month, and their 4D for the season as well. These are hardly unprecedented injuries.

The problem isn't the tank. The problem is the underlying problem that has yet to be addressed. The Buffalo Sabres do not draft or develop talent well. We can tank for Bedard in 2023 and it would still not matter, just like Edmonton sucked for years until they started evaluating their talent better and drafting slightly better. 

Carolina is the poster child for rebuilds. They have quality built a hell of a prospect pool without tanking. LA or TOR might be the poster children for tanking and then ascending. 

[WildCard]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

The problem isn't the tank. The problem is the underlying problem that has yet to be addressed. The Buffalo Sabres do not draft or develop talent well. We can tank for Bedard in 2023 and it would still not matter, just like Edmonton sucked for years until they started evaluating their talent better and drafting slightly better. 

Carolina is the poster child for rebuilds. They have quality built a hell of a prospect pool without tanking. LA or TOR might be the poster children for tanking and then ascending. 

We've been around and around on this forever. For the record I agree with you, but I don't think there's convincing anyone at this point; the tank wars have trenches to rival the Great War

[Marvin]

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

In our modern technological paradise, nothing can be compared to the past. We have ascended, and everything from before this century, be it tangible or ideological, is moot and void 

That would be like needing to explain Emmy Noether's work before you could refer to a random joke in Pinky and the Brain.

 

[Marvin]

14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The problem isn't the tank. The problem is the underlying problem that has yet to be addressed. The Buffalo Sabres do not draft or develop talent well. We can tank for Bedard in 2023 and it would still not matter, just like Edmonton sucked for years until they started evaluating their talent better and drafting slightly better. 

Carolina is the poster child for rebuilds. They have quality built a hell of a prospect pool without tanking. LA or TOR might be the poster children for tanking and then ascending. 

If the point is that the Sabres can not draft or develop talent well, then whether they tank or not is immaterial.  They will stink either way.  It's just that tanking gives you a shiny object you can fling at me like Jeremy White and Mike Schopp did.  Jack Eichel is just as immaterial as everything else, so you asking about who my top player is means less than nothing.

I know my hockey history going back to the NHA.  I could expound at length on the different ways these different philosophies have worked and failed to work.  It is a wonderfully interesting discussion.  But if the counter to my answers is beer on my turban, being lampooned for 15 minutes on a radio show, a shiny object in my face, or a condescending comment from a moderator, when none of them are material to the discussion people asserted it was, which is, "tanks are more efficacious in creating a championship team than slow builds," then WHAT THE **** AM I DOING HERE?

Edited March 31, 2021 by Marvin, Sabres Fan

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

If the point is that the Sabres can not draft or develop talent well, then whether they tank or not is immaterial.  They will stink either way.  It's just that tanking gives you a shiny object you can fling at me like Jeremy White and Mike Schopp did.  Jack Eichel is just as immaterial as everything else, so you asking about who my top player is means less than nothing.

I know my hockey history going back to the NHA.  I could expound at length on the different ways these different philosophies have worked and failed to work.  It is a wonderfully interesting discussion.  But if the counter to my answers is beer on my turban, being lampooned for 15 minutes on a radio show, a shiny object in my face, or a condescending comment from a moderator, when none of them are material to the discussion people asserted it was, which is, "tanks are more efficacious in creating a championship team than slow builds," then WHAT THE **** AM I DOING HERE?

Now that question is very interesting

[SwampD]

 

29 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The problem isn't the tank. The problem is the underlying problem that has yet to be addressed. The Buffalo Sabres do not draft or develop talent well. We can tank for Bedard in 2023 and it would still not matter, just like Edmonton sucked for years until they started evaluating their talent better and drafting slightly better. 

Carolina is the poster child for rebuilds. They have quality built a hell of a prospect pool without tanking. LA or TOR might be the poster children for tanking and then ascending. 

TO didn't tank. They sold at the deadline.

Huge difference.