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Gatorman0519

McBeane vs JBott

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After 3 years at One Bills Drive:  We are a win away from a second playoff birth.  We have a winning/healthy culture.  Salary Cap issues solved.  Excellent drafting/trades.  We have an excellent coaching staff.  We have young talent being developed at virtually every position and have plenty of ammo to add next off season.  Lots of quality depth players.  We are on the cusp of challenging for the division.

After 3 Years at First Niagara Center:  Started with a Franchise center (that is like saying JA was already on the Bills roster when McBeane got there).  We have not even sniffed a winning season.  In fact we were two lotto basement teams.  We have a weak/fragile culture.  Horrible drafting and embarrassing all time worst trades (esp ROR).   We have some of the worst fundamentals I have ever seen in every area on one single hockey team. Salary Cap hell.  Ineffective coaching staff (2nd one).  We have little to no talent being developed and no depth across the board.  We are firing on the trade market with blanks.  No chance to challenge anyone or even a hint it is coming.

Thank God at least one is on the right road.  The other is setting records in ineptitude. 

Happy 50th!

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Ya JBots really should be on the hot seat shouldn’t he?  If they finish bottom 10 I can’t see how he makes it.  Hope he doesn’t atleast.

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7 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Ya JBots really should be on the hot seat shouldn’t he?  If they finish bottom 10 I can’t see how he makes it.  Hope he doesn’t atleast.

damn, that's a nice picture. where is that taken?

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20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The fact we are a cap team is the turd-flavoured cherry on top

Why should we care about that?  You would be more pleased if they were spending less?  

I could see if they were in long term cap trouble, but that’s not the case.  

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27 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

damn, that's a nice picture. where is that taken?

Ottawa Valley

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6 minutes ago, Curt said:

Why should we care about that?  You would be more pleased if they were spending less?  

I could see if they were in long term cap trouble, but that’s not the case.  

For one, that remains to be seen. Not as much space next year as some think, particularly considering the rate at which JB offers returning contracts. 

And for 2, our lack of current space is presumably a factor adding to the difficulty in consummating a trade in season. 

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1 minute ago, Thorny said:

For one, that remains to be seen. Not as much space next year as some think, particularly considering the rate at which JB offers returning contracts. 

And for 2, our lack of current space is presumably a factor adding to the difficulty in consummating a trade in season. 

1) everything in the future remains to be seen.  We were talking about right now.

2) good point

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I think its much easier to turn around an NFL team than a hockey team.   

Easier to shed contracts over a 2 year period is a huge difference.   I'm happy with our GM , he has made a lot of moves already, I know its tough waiting for the next one but I'm sure it will come.  And if it doesn't I'm sure he has a long enough leash to grab another top prospect instead.

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10 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I think its much easier to turn around an NFL team than a hockey team.   

Easier to shed contracts over a 2 year period is a huge difference.   I'm happy with our GM , he has made a lot of moves already, I know its tough waiting for the next one but I'm sure it will come.  And if it doesn't I'm sure he has a long enough leash to grab another top prospect instead.

So, make a move, and that’s great. Or....don’t, be bad, draft a player with our 1st, and everything is still fine. Ok, no lose situation then! This is easy, I should be GM. 

Edited by Thorny
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The Bills are miles ahead of the Sabres at this point. 

A couple of counterpoints though, comparing the NHL to the NFL is dubious at best. 
 

Clearing up salary cap in the NFL is much easier with the ability to carry dead cap, cut players and roll over unused cap space from year to year.
 

In terms of drafting the a majority of the players who will be selected in the 2020 NFL Draft are the same age as the NHL Draft Class of 2017, Botterill’s First as Sabres GM.  NFL Draftees have an extra three years of development before they are selected.  So comparing the Total Contributions of  Bills Drafts from 2017-2019 to the Sabres from the same time period cannot be accurately performed.

In terms of trades, the ROR should never have happened in the first place, but Botterill’s Top Target was a package of Elias Lindholm and Jeff Skinner. That’s light years ahead of the return that ultimately came back. A Top 2 Center Spine of Eichel And Lindholm is probably a legitimate playoff contender, (a Top 2 of Eichel and ROR definitely is). Thanks Terry, so glad the signing bonus is where you decided to take a stand. 

Out of Curiosity what were the other all time embarrassing trades that Botterill has made? 

In terms of the Bills being ready to compete for the division under McBeane,  timing is everything. They built the team to be competitive just as the sun is setting on the greatest dynasty in the history of pro sports. The other two teams in the division have been and continue to be as inept as the Bills were, which makes the path easier. 

Botterill has not helped himself in many ways, but the Sabres Pathway is the Top is much more difficult with Tampa, Boston, Florida and Toronto in the same division. 
 

The coaching staff the Bills have assembled is outstanding, the Sabres at the NHL Level...woof. 
 

Although Eichel’s Attitude and Leadership have improved so far under Krueger, how much of that is on RK who knows though. 
 

The development portion of the staff is doing a nice job however. Olofsson and Asplund were GMTM Pick’s, but their transition and development in the North American Game occurred under the present staff. 
 

I think that Botterill has next season to turn this into a playoff team. For his sake and Sabres Fans Sanity I hope he does.

 

One major frustrating part is that the Bills Analytics Department has grown to a staff of five, while the Sabres has kept Jason Nightengale and has not expanded the department, even with Krueger being brought on.  


 

 

Edited by Brawndo
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^One point of contention, the development portion is more of a wash, if anything, considering how Mittelstadt was handled and to some degree Thompson. 

Agree Botterill has at LEAST until next season to field a playoff team. He’s got a long leash, that much is obvious. 

- - - 

Mittelstadt is a pretty good microcosm actually. Errors in development, notably as it relates to insulation and roster construction. It illustrates the mistake JB made in deciding to move ROR. Perhaps early drafting concerns (though I’m less concerned about this). 

Edited by Thorny

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4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

^One point of contention, the development portion is more of a wash, if anything, considering how Mittelstadt was handled and to some degree Thompson. 

Agree Botterill has at LEAST until next season to field a playoff team. He’s got a long leash, that much is obvious. 

The development staff really has not had the opportunity to develop Mittelstadt where he should be in Rochester though. As you know The schedule in the AHL is more  conducive to development, with more  straight practice days. The decision to keep him with the team is a strike against Botterill for sure 

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4 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

The development staff really has not had the opportunity to develop Mittelstadt where he should be in Rochester though. As you know The schedule in the AHL is more  conducive to development, with more  straight practice days. The decision to keep him with the team is a strike against Botterill for sure 

Right, which speaks to the overall development structure. If they aren’t putting guys in the right spot to succeed their development plan is ***** from “go”. 

Wow Bullocks with an “o” is scratched out 😄 

Edited by Thorny

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Comparing the competency or effectiveness of NFL and NHL GM’s is like comparing Legos to Mega Blocks. GI Joe to Action force. Del Monte to Great Value. Levi’s to H&M’s. Sure it’s the same to a point. A very loose and broad spectrum point.

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imo in any league it's all about the drafting. Your top picks have to play and you have to get lucky with a few lower ones. You do that, you're a genius. You fail to do that you're dead in the water. 

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5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

imo in any league it's all about the drafting. Your top picks have to play and you have to get lucky with a few lower ones. You do that, you're a genius. You fail to do that you're dead in the water. 

True.  It’s much more likely to happen in football though.  The drafted players are older and are a more finished product. Also, in football all you can pull starters out of the first 3 rounds routinely, and players contribute immediately.  In hockey it is not uncommon to take three years for a first rounder to be ready.   Later rounds are much harder and almost all need further development.  

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10 hours ago, Zamboni said:

Comparing the competency or effectiveness of NFL and NHL GM’s is like comparing Legos to Mega Blocks. GI Joe to Action force. Del Monte to Great Value. Levi’s to H&M’s. Sure it’s the same to a point. A very loose and broad spectrum point.

You can easily compare the “effectiveness”, just look at wins and championships- it’s simple.  Those are the true and final indicators of whether your actions were effective.  So far Beane has been more effective.  

The path to get there and the GMs actions are iwhat is difficult to compare.  Hockey is harder to build from scratch.  Drafting 18 year olds versus 22 year olds is the essence of the problem.  Tanking to get a “generational “ talent is a hockey tactic that works only sometimes (Pittsburgh twice and Chicago).    Teams that appear to tank in football are often clearing contracts and not trying to draft a single  great player.  

In Hockey it might be easier to retain a competitive team once you get one.  That would be an interesting study. 

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23 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

You can easily compare the “effectiveness”, just look at wins and championships- it’s simple.  Those are the true and final indicators of whether your actions were effective.  So far Beane has been more effective.  

The path to get there and the GMs actions are iwhat is difficult to compare.  Hockey is harder to build from scratch.  Drafting 18 year olds versus 22 year olds is the essence of the problem.  Tanking to get a “generational “ talent is a hockey tactic that works only sometimes (Pittsburgh twice and Chicago).    Teams that appear to tank in football are often clearing contracts and not trying to draft a single  great player.  

In Hockey it might be easier to retain a competitive team once you get one.  That would be an interesting study. 

I agree...but Vegas did it in one year without any superstars. NYI are a juggernaut based on great coaching and depth.  Even Philly is on the rise again after several bad seasons.  The simple fact is there is no discernible progress after three years.  It doesn’t take that long to see progress. 

Edited by Gatorman0519

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7 hours ago, Pimlach said:

True.  It’s much more likely to happen in football though.  The drafted players are older and are a more finished product. Also, in football all you can pull starters out of the first 3 rounds routinely, and players contribute immediately.  In hockey it is not uncommon to take three years for a first rounder to be ready.   Later rounds are much harder and almost all need further development.  

Absolutely true, which is why we won't know about JBot until after he might be gone. You can look at Philly, and they have a huge number of promising young players showing up now so it looks like maybe Hextall was unjustly fired. The new guy gets all the glory. This happens often in hockey. We can see now that Murray didn't draft well and traded away the promising young players we did have so epic fail aside from Olofsson I guess. So far with JBot all we know is that Mitts might not be the star we were hoping he'd be, the rest is still unknown.  

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8 hours ago, Gatorman0519 said:

I agree...but Vegas did it in one year without any superstars. NYI are a juggernaut based on great coaching and depth.  Even Philly is on the rise again after several bad seasons.  The simple fact is there is no discernible progress after three years.  It doesn’t take that long to see progress. 

Vegas had some very advantageousrules in place to make them competitive right away.  They had years to prepare and they made deals on players before the expansion draft even started  (I.e. "leave this guy unprotected and I wont take that guy").    That said, their GM and his staff have been outstanding.  

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The fact the Sabres analytics department isn't at least 3 people is a major problem and failure. 

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On 12/7/2019 at 8:43 PM, Brawndo said:

So comparing the Total Contributions of  Bills Drafts from 2017-2019 to the Sabres from the same time period cannot be accurately performed.

Also, consider that the NFL has 3-4 additional years of vetting, so a first round pick in the NFL is much more likely to be a real impact player.  NHL draftees are typically several years out and lots can happen to either hurt a player's development or accelerate it, so there is more variability among NHL draft picks.

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2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The fact the Sabres analytics department isn't at least 3 people is a major problem and failure. 

I think Jason Nightengale reads Sabrespace, so it's almost like he has three analysts at his disposal.     e5

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