Sabres Lines September 23

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

but can hope Krueger is letting Vlad play his way out of the lineup.

but...

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

“Fans aren’t huge supporters of Sobotka, but his play on Friday in Toronto was very good.

?

[Randall Flagg]

Vlad had a great game last September in Columbus as well. 

He displayed nothing to differentiate himself from the player he was last season. Nothing. It's preseason delusion to think otherwise.

[bob_sauve28]

11 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Just about anyone will do great on the top line- Skinner, Olofsson or Vesey would all work with Jack and Sam.

My only thing is that Skinner is an individualist whereas Olofsson looks like he would benefit more from great passing. 

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

but...

?

As stated above, yes, he looked good (or more accurately reasonable) against AHLers and 4th liners on a team that has about $40MM for 2 goalies, 6 D, and 8 F's (plus possibly A spare D-man on road trips).  Their 4th liners are essentially AHLers as well.

Sobotka SHOULD look good in that situation and he'd look darn good in Amerks red, white, & blue. (Though wouldn't be surprised if he still would end up in single digits for goals even against AHLers full time.)  But we have an entire season's worth of him in Sabres B&G showing that the pest that could contribute back in Boston isn't that guy any longer.

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

My only thing is that Skinner is an individualist whereas Olofsson looks like he would benefit more from great passing. 

Which is why, if they can find a line that Skinner can still get 30-34 goals on that doesn't include Eichel, they should give Olofsson-Eichel-Reinhart a prolonged look.  But if it looks like the lack of a legit center puts him in the 25-28 goal range, that's too much lost production to see how good that top line could be.

[bob_sauve28]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Which is why, if they can find a line that Skinner can still get 30-34 goals on that doesn't include Eichel, they should give Olofsson-Eichel-Reinhart a prolonged look.  But if it looks like the lack of a legit center puts him in the 25-28 goal range, that's too much lost production to see how good that top line could be.

Totally agree 

[pi2000]

50 minutes ago, #freejame said:

If Skinner can’t perform without Jack why did we pay him $9m? Giving our 2C Skinner and letting Olofsson play with Jack makes much more sense to me. 

You dont pay him $9m and then put him on the second line.

[dudacek]

43 minutes ago, Taro T said:

As stated above, yes, he looked good (or more accurately reasonable) against AHLers and 4th liners on a team that has about $40MM for 2 goalies, 6 D, and 8 F's (plus possibly A spare D-man on road trips).  Their 4th liners are essentially AHLers as well.

Sobotka SHOULD look good in that situation and he'd look darn good in Amerks red, white, & blue. (Though wouldn't be surprised if he still would end up in single digits for goals even against AHLers full time.)  But we have an entire season's worth of him in Sabres B&G showing that the pest that could contribute back in Boston isn't that guy any longer.

Did you see the story Friedman told about an unnamed player meeting with Krueger for coffee over the summer and after the meeting was over, the player’s significant other went back into the coffee shop to thank Ralph, telling him that it was the first time in ages someone had made the player feel good about himself?

I’m betting it was Zemgus, but if there is a Sabre out there who should be feeling that way, it’s Vlad. He’s universally dumped on and he knows it.

I hope Ralph is still being a realist about winning hockey games and not squandering them on ill-considered reclamation projects. I mean I love the stories (hell, I’m open about pulling hard for Lazar) But the player has to earn the opportunity, not have it given to him.

Edited September 23, 2019 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Did you see the story Friedman told about an unnamed player meeting with Krueger for coffee over the summer and after the meeting was over, the player’s significant other went back into the coffee shop to thank Ralph, telling him that it was the first time in ages someone had made the player feel good about himself?

I’m betting it was Zemgus, but if there is a Sabre out there who should be feeling that way, it’s Vlad. He’s universally dumped on and he knows it.

I hope Ralph is still being a realist about winning hockey games and not squandering them on ill-considered reclamation projects. I mean I love the stories (hell, I’m open about pulling hard for Lazar) But the player has to earn the opportunity, not have it given to him.

I hope Vlad doesn't read twitter/internet stuff and doesn't take the criticism to heart. 

He's had a helluva career.

I just don't want him anywhere near our lineup at any time this year.

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Did you see the story Friedman told about an unnamed player meeting with Krueger for coffee over the summer and after the meeting was over, the player’s significant other went back into the coffee shop to thank Ralph, telling him that it was the first time in ages someone had made the player feel good about himself?

I’m betting it was Zemgus, but if there is a Sabre out there who should be feeling that way, it’s Vlad. He’s universally dumped on and he knows it.

I hope Ralph is still being a realist about winning hockey games and not squandering them on ill-considered reclamation projects. I mean I love the stories (hell, I’m open about pulling hard for Lazar) But the player has to earn the opportunity, not have it given to him.

Had seen that.  No idea who it was in that coffee shop but it could be a whole bunch of 'em.

Until we see that Krueger isn't putting out the best lineup possible for sentimentality 's or politics sake; I will continue to assume this experimentation is being done for the reasons he claims - to see how guys work together & to see how they handle unfamiliar situations.  (There'll be plenty of time to crucify him should he deserve it.)

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

Vlad had a great game last September in Columbus as well. 

He displayed nothing to differentiate himself from the player he was last season. Nothing. It's preseason delusion to think otherwise.

I'm going to disagree with the popular view. I think he is a better hockey player than he was last season and with a new coach and a new system and hopefully a whole new attitude you can't assume ANY player will be what they were last year. Some might "fit" Kreuger's way much better than they fit Housley's (and some might be worse - hopefully not). I think Sobodka can still be a solid penalty killer and 4th liner unless Cozens is deemed ready to make the roster in which case he's out and Cozens is in.

The guy I want to send to Rochester is Mitts. At this point, I'd rather see Asplund on the roster (which likely will not be the case).

[Broken Ankles]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm going to disagree with the popular view. I think he is a better hockey player than he was last season and with a new coach and a new system and hopefully a whole new attitude you can't assume ANY player will be what they were last year. Some might "fit" Kreuger's way much better than they fit Housley's (and some might be worse - hopefully not). I think Sobodka can still be a solid penalty killer and 4th liner unless Cozens is deemed ready to make the roster in which case he's out and Cozens is in.

The guy I want to send to Rochester is Mitts. At this point, I'd rather see Asplund on the roster (which likely will not be the case).

I agree with the bold.  But not much else, although I hope your right.  Love to see a head coach have a Svengali effect that energizes the team.   What if Vlad and Tage have breakout seasons?  Heads would explode, and we would see the ROR trade thread debated once again.   Not expecting this, but any is possible. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, bob_sauve28 said:

My only thing is that Skinner is an individualist whereas Olofsson looks like he would benefit more from great passing. 

But we must be careful not to put him in the same situation that made him want out of Carolina.....not the best of linemates to accent his talents.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I’m open about pulling hard for Lazar

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

Edited September 23, 2019 by Doohickie
predicting inkman finds this amusing

[Doohicksie]

41 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

But we must be careful not to put him in the same situation that made him want out of Carolina.....not the best of linemates to accent his talents.

If he accumulates points and the team wins, he'll be happy.  But you make a valid point (and someone else upstream who said you don't pay him $9M to play on the second line).  the ideal situation is we end up with 4 or 5 "first liners" and the top two lines produce at a similar clip, so it won't matter which line he's on, and RFK will switch players between the top two lines to perk things up when things get stale.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

3 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

If he accumulates points and the team wins, he'll be happy.  But you make a valid point (and someone else upstream who said you don't pay him $9M to play on the second line).  the ideal situation is we end up with 4 or 5 "first liners" and the top two lines produce at a similar clip, so it won't matter which line he's on, and RFK will switch players between the top two lines to perk things up when things get stale.

We've been waiting how long for this?

I pretty much agree with you but it involves hope and risk, something that been a bit hard to find in recent years. Trying my best, I've had that hope every year and stayed optimistic until about half way through each season. This season I'm in more of a guarded mode with emotions, especially seeing Vlad still here.

[#freejame]

I don’t understand why someone can’t play on the second line because he makes too much money. If Skinner was catalyst to a strong second line he wouldn’t even lose any ice time. 

[Doohicksie]

 

12 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

We've been waiting how long for this?

Realistically we're only a 2C away from that.  We have the big three, plus Olofsson knocking at the door and Vesey looking good in pre-season.  Give us a 2C (either someone on the roster already or an acquisition) and either of those guys ready for primetime on a top line, and we're there.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Doohickie

[pi2000]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Did you see the story Friedman told about an unnamed player meeting with Krueger for coffee over the summer and after the meeting was over, the player’s significant other went back into the coffee shop to thank Ralph, telling him that it was the first time in ages someone had made the player feel good about himself?

I’m betting it was Zemgus, but if there is a Sabre out there who should be feeling that way, it’s Vlad. He’s universally dumped on and he knows it.

I hope Ralph is still being a realist about winning hockey games and not squandering them on ill-considered reclamation projects. I mean I love the stories (hell, I’m open about pulling hard for Lazar) But the player has to earn the opportunity, not have it given to him.

My money is on Okposo.

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm going to disagree with the popular view. I think he is a better hockey player than he was last season and with a new coach and a new system and hopefully a whole new attitude you can't assume ANY player will be what they were last year. Some might "fit" Kreuger's way much better than they fit Housley's (and some might be worse - hopefully not). I think Sobodka can still be a solid penalty killer and 4th liner unless Cozens is deemed ready to make the roster in which case he's out and Cozens is in.

The guy I want to send to Rochester is Mitts. At this point, I'd rather see Asplund on the roster (which likely will not be the case).

But stepping back, the last three seasons for Vlad paint a clear line that last season was just an extension of - a typical decline of a middling player who got by on effort and not abilities, who is seeing those abilities evaporate relative to the competition that is always going to be young and fast compared to any given player, making the effort more and more fruitless. Krueger hockey versus Housley hockey is an incredibly vague delineation with no clear details or application to how Sobotka would become better - Sobotka's impact to our team's scoring chances are simply to hurt them more than, literally, 99.9% of all other skaters in the NHL. What is the magic dust that Krueger has for him that Phil didn't that will solve these issues? They were still apparent in the preseason - he had another classic odd man situation in a prime scoring area that evaporated into absolutely nothing, which is the same type of thing I can make a ten minute highlight film of from last season. And a general inability to reliably move pucks to teammates in meaningful areas, or even just keep them in his possession. Against the mediocre depth of one of the most porous defenses in the NHL. The Sabres' #1 problem last year was an inability to play modern offensive hockey in the offensive zone, to peel off the boards and create meaningful chances, particularly from it's bottom 9 (and middle 6), and Sobotka was the poster boy as the most egregious example of this. 

Allowing Vlad to be in the lineup this season, especially in the context of our milquetoast offseason, would just demonstrate that Jason fundamentally misses the mark on what his team's major problem is. It would be both bad for the on-ice performance of the team and as a symbol of the competence of our pro hockey evaluation abilities, which have been in dubious standing for Botterill's entire tenure.

No qualms with the idea of Mitts to Rochester.

[dudacek]

Agree with the above take on Vlad.

Part of the public hatred for Vlad was Housley continually using him as a 3rd line centre. We hope the presence of Johansson and ERod makes that a non-starter, and the growth of Casey makes it moot.

Ralph spoke of using the bottom of his roster to meet situational needs, so I can see a slim chance of Ralph keeping him as his best option for those situations. I hope the presence of Larry, Zemgus and Lazar is enough that even that slim window has closed.

[Curt]

4 hours ago, #freejame said:

If Skinner can’t perform without Jack why did we pay him $9m? Giving our 2C Skinner and letting Olofsson play with Jack makes much more sense to me. 

It’s not like we don’t know what Skinner is without a great C.  That was his entire CAR career.  He was about a 25-30 goal scorer.  His first year with Ike, he hit 40.

It has a lot to do with the type of player Skinner is.  His strength is cashing in chances relatively close to the net, but he isn’t much of a creator or puck distributor.  That’s why it makes sense to play him with the teams best creator, to maximize his opportunities to cash in.  His current salary does not change the player that he is.

Olofsson may turn out to have a similar skill set, but he hasn’t proven that he is a consistent threat at the NHL level.  He does look promising though, and may actually turn out to be a better passer and more well rounded player than Skinner.  Once Olofsson gets his feet wet, I could actually see Skinner-Eichel-Olofsson as an extremely dangerous top line.

[TrueBlueGED]

4 hours ago, #freejame said:

If Skinner can’t perform without Jack why did we pay him $9m? Giving our 2C Skinner and letting Olofsson play with Jack makes much more sense to me. 

It's not that he can't perform without Jack, but if you ever want him to see 40 goals again, that's where he has to play. If you're happy with 25-30, then sure, put him wherever. 

9 minutes ago, Curt said:

It’s not like we don’t know what Skinner is without a great C.  That was his entire CAR career.  He was about a 25-30 goal scorer.  His first year with Ike, he hit 40.

It has a lot to do with the type of player Skinner is.  His strength is cashing in chances relatively close to the net, but he isn’t much of a creator or puck distributor.  That’s why it makes sense to play him with the teams best creator, to maximize his opportunities to cash in.  His current salary does not change the player that he is.

Olofsson may turn out to have a similar skill set, but he hasn’t proven that he is a consistent threat at the NHL level.  He does look promising though, and may actually turn out to be a better passer and more well rounded player than Skinner.  Once Olofsson gets his feet wet, I could actually see Skinner-Eichel-Olofsson as an extremely dangerous top line.

I should have just quoted you. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by TrueBlueGED

[triumph_communes]

Sobotka playing 4th line 23th man isn’t the end of the world. New coach may fix some of his problems. 

 

But if people are mad mad because he’s in the way of Asplund then they’re out to pasture. Asplund still is a couple years away on his own. 

[Taro T]

19 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Agree with the above take on Vlad.

Part of the public hatred for Vlad was Housley continually using him as a 3rd line centre. We hope the presence of Johansson and ERod makes that a non-starter, and the growth of Casey makes it moot.

Ralph spoke of using the bottom of his roster to meet situational needs, so I can see a slim chance of Ralph keeping him as his best option for those situations. I hope the presence of Larry, Zemgus and Lazar is enough that even that slim window has closed.

A BIGGER part of the hatred was still using him as the 2C as late into the season as February 1!

The ####ing season was going to #### and Sobotka was still getting 2nd line duty about 40% of the time.  And most of the time he wasn't 2C, Mittelstadt was, but Vlad was still the 3C.