2020-2021 Lineup Thread

[Marvin]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

A  roster with Strome and either Mitts or Cozens at 3C would be a very young and dynamic forward group.

The Top 9

Skinner (27), Eichel (23), Reinhart (24)

Olofsson (24), Strome (23), Kahun (24)

MoJo (29), Cozens (19), Thompson (22)/Mitts (21)

Average Age: 23.9

 

Asplund, Lazar, Okposo, and Simmonds rounding out the line-up?  I worry about Cozens, Thompson, and Mittlestadt having issues while Asplund-Lazar-Okposo is unlikely to be as effective as LOG.  Does the low-end 2C compensate and get us to a playoff team?

[Weave]

21 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

It's my spidey sense 

Same feeling I had re:  Ott-Roy back before we hid under a rock for 7 years.

I'm game to give this kid a whirl.

[GASabresIUFAN]

47 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You think it's more likely than not by a significant margin that we are adding him? Interesting. 

Risto is a net negative so I'd move him for picks, definitely for Strome. I'm not certain on his value at all, but he'd be preferable to no addition. 

Low-end 2C is the consensus? 

He is only 23.  We haven’t seen his best hockey.  He is medium end 2C now.  Who knows what he’ll look like at 26 or 27.

[dudacek]

45 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You think it's more likely than not by a significant margin that we are adding him? Interesting. 

Risto is a net negative so I'd move him for picks, definitely for Strome. I'm not certain on his value at all, but he'd be preferable to no addition. 

Low-end 2C is the consensus? 

If this team is better off with him in the stands than on the ice, why has he played the most minutes for three successive coaches?

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He is only 23.  We haven’t seen his best hockey.  He is medium end 2C now.  Who knows what he’ll look like at 26 or 27.

And a second organization in less than two years is actively shopping him.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

And a second organization in less than two years is actively shopping him.

Fair point, but I think this time it has to do with the depth in their organization and their cap situation.  The Hawks are carrying some significant contracts like Seabrook, Toews and even Kane.

Why are we shopping a D?  It’s because that is where we can afford to trade someone.  I doubt they’d trade him if Dach hadn’t come along so quickly.  Kahun was moved twice in the last two seasons as well.  I don’t see that as a negative with him.  Frankly, between Kahun and Jokiharju, I’m pretty happy with our ex-Hawks.

[Randall Flagg]

This hockey discussion is downright therapeutic to be honest

[Thorny]

30 minutes ago, dudacek said:

If this team is better off with him in the stands than on the ice, why has he played the most minutes for three successive coaches?

All coaches we were clamoring to be fired shortly after their hire. Maybe not with Ralph, but I think that's because people were more interested in heading straight for the GM, this time. 

I should clarify, the minutes that we play Risto, he's been a net negative. If we ever had a coach that would actually play him the reasonable amount, I think he'd be decent in a lower-tier role. Problem is, we've never seen that happen and I've kind of given up hope. 

Risto's metrics suffered their same crash this year as any other in recent memory. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

Strome-centered offseason I'd be okay with:
Skinner - Eichs - decent forward acquisition, nothing crazy
Olofsson - Strome - Reinhart
Johansson - Kahun - Cozens
Girgs/equivalent - Larry/equivalent - Okposo, where equivalent means I don't want prospects here, I want established NHLers that can continue this line's role, maybe Reaves or something if we can't keep these two. MAYBE I'd be okay with Lazar full time there.

This gives, for organizational depth and injury callups, Asplund, Lazar, Tage, Mitts. Different skill sets depending on who is injured, and Casey and Mitts can do what guys like Drew and MacArthur did in 06/07, which is probably where they should be right now.

Strome-centered offseason that would make me angery: 
Skinner - Eichel - Reinhart
Olofsson - Strome - Kahun
Johansson - Mitts/Cozens - Thompson
Asplund - Lazar - Okposo 

Very little depth for call-ups, too much in the way of players who have only shown to be bad at this level, way too much dice-rolling once again.

[dudacek]

23 minutes ago, Thorny said:

All coaches we were clamoring to be fired shortly after their hire. Maybe not with Ralph, but I think that's because people were more interested in heading straight for the GM, this time. 

I should clarify, the minutes that we play Risto, he's been a net negative. If we ever had a coach that would actually play him the reasonable amount, I think he'd be decent in a lower-tier role. Problem is, we've never seen that happen and I've kind of given up hope. 

Risto's metrics suffered their same crash this year as any other in recent memory. 

Tell me why this means more than his +39 improvement?

He’s a flawed but good hockey player with decent skill who competes his hardest against the other teams best players. He was an asset to the team this year.

I’d much rather have him on my team than Dylan Strome.

Edited April 10, 2020 by dudacek

[dudacek]

43 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Fair point, but I think this time it has to do with the depth in their organization and their cap situation.  The Hawks are carrying some significant contracts like Seabrook, Toews and even Kane.

Why are we shopping a D?  It’s because that is where we can afford to trade someone.  I doubt they’d trade him if Dach hadn’t come along so quickly.  Kahun was moved twice in the last two seasons as well.  I don’t see that as a negative with him.  Frankly, between Kahun and Jokiharju, I’m pretty happy with our ex-Hawks.

Maybe he can prove me wrong the way Skinner did (at least in the first year).

But I didn’t like Strome as a prospect and I don’t like him as a player. He’s a third-rate Alexei Yashin, a soft Chris Gratton, a better Mikhail Grigorenko. He doesn’t pay the price and he will leave you wanting more. He’s got skill but no will. 

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Tell me why this means more than his +39 improvement?

He’s a flawed but good hockey player with decent skill who competes his hardest against the other teams best players. He was an asset to the team this year.

I’d much rather have him on my team than Dylan Strome.

Because plus minus is a vastly inferior stat. 

The second bolded, I'd guess there's a less than 1% chance that we'd have been worse off this year with a legit 2C than with Risto. Wasn't Colin Miller scratched a bunch early this season? If Strome is a legit 2C like people are saying, and that's our biggest area of need, how on earth could we be worse off with a legit 2C and Miller skating regular minutes, than with Marcus "LW" Johansson at 2C and Risto getting platooned in his own zone?

If we'd be a worse team with Strome and minus Risto, I sincerely, sincerely hope we do not add Strome. That's not snark. We can debate Risto till the cows come home but if he's providing more value than the centre add, we assuredly need a better centre add.

2C is one of the most important positions on a hockey team. If one is thinking Risto is providing greater than that value right now, we are miles apart on this one. But it probably just comes down to your low view of Strome. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Thorny

[Taro T]

22 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'd be surprised if Strome wasn't a Sabre by October.

Sabres have been pretty well served going with guys the Blackhawks don't see fitting into their plans going back at least to the '90's (Hasek & Dumont spring to mind immediately).  That Jokiharju has exceeded expectations and Kahun looked good in his brief look, wouldn't be opposed to the move.  You've got us on the Cirelli bandwagon, but that will be a tough get.  Strome might not be a bad consolation prize.

Would give the Sabres a legit placeholder for the 2C role for a season or 2 until at least 1 of Cozens, Mittelstadt, or Kahun could fill that role legitimately.  Johansson would still be available next year as an emergency 2C should Strome get injured.

The 2nd line would likely work if they did bring in Strome - not a guarantee, but better odds for it than what they currently have.  Find a way to bring back the Larsson line and bring in a better goalie than Hutton to platoon with Ullmark and we could even see playoffs next season.

And just like that, to the horror of several here, Botterill will likely have bought himself another year. ?

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Because plus minus is a vastly inferior stat. 

The second bolded, I'd guess there a less than 1% chance that we'd have been worse off this year with a legit 2C than with Risto. Wasn't Colin Miller scratched a bunch early this season? If Strome is a legit 2C like people are saying, and that's out biggest need, how on earth could we be worse off with a legit 2C and Miller skating regular than with Marcus "LW" Johansson at 2C and Risto getting platooned in his own zone?

Sure, but +39 has some meaning.

Explain “his metrics” and why I should be concerned that Risto is on the ice for five or six shots a game less than his opponents when he is the coach’s first choice in our zone, and the coach wants his team to be far more judicious than most teams in when they choose to take shots.

As to the second Risto is a better player than Miller and a better player than Strome, who wasn’t enough of a 2C to hang on to the 2C spot in Chicago. I don’t want to trade our players for worse ones, regardless of our lack of balance on our depth chart. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by dudacek

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Maybe he can prove me wrong the way Skinner did (at least in the first year).

But I didn’t like Strome as a prospect and I don’t like him as a player. He’s a third-rate Alexei Yashin, a soft Chris Gratton, a better Mikhail Grigorenko. He doesn’t pay the price and he will leave you wanting more. He’s got skill but no will. 

This post that came in as I was typing addresses this edit of mine:

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Because plus minus is a vastly inferior stat. 

The second bolded, I'd guess there's a less than 1% chance that we'd have been worse off this year with a legit 2C than with Risto. Wasn't Colin Miller scratched a bunch early this season? If Strome is a legit 2C like people are saying, and that's our biggest area of need, how on earth could we be worse off with a legit 2C and Miller skating regular minutes, than with Marcus "LW" Johansson at 2C and Risto getting platooned in his own zone?

If we'd be a worse team with Strome and minus Risto, I sincerely, sincerely hope we do not add Strome. That's not snark. We can debate Risto till the cows come home but if he's providing more value than the centre add, we assuredly need a better centre add.

2C is one of the most important positions on a hockey team. If one is thinking Risto is providing greater than that value right now, we are miles apart on this one. But it probably just comes down to your low view of Strome. 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

21 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Sabres have been pretty well served going with guys the Blackhawks don't see fitting into their plans going back at least to the '90's (Hasek & Dumont spring to mind immediately).  That Jokiharju has exceeded expectations and Kahun looked good in his brief look, wouldn't be opposed to the move.  You've got us on the Cirelli bandwagon, but that will be a tough get.  Strome might not be a bad consolation prize.

Would give the Sabres a legit placeholder for the 2C role for a season or 2 until at least 1 of Cozens, Mittelstadt, or Kahun could fill that role legitimately.  Johansson would still be available next year as an emergency 2C should Strome get injured.

The 2nd line would likely work if they did bring in Strome - not a guarantee, but better odds for it than what they currently have.  Find a way to bring back the Larsson line and bring in a better goalie than Hutton to platoon with Ullmark and we could even see playoffs next season.

And just like that, to the horror of several here, Botterill will likely have bought himself another year. ?

Botterill already has another 2 seasons. He already sold Pegula on 4 years to make the playoffs, it'll now be 5, considering the shortened off-season. No chance he passes up the opportunity of pushing things back, that extra job security, if it's in any way possible. Extenuating circumstances make it so. 

But, I mean if Botterill's team makes the playoffs next season, I'd be good with keeping him. It's honestly about results. 

But he shouldn't have a job if we miss (I mean, I'm firing him now, but). And I mean, if we miss by one point, with injuries, he should be fired. If you can't make the playoffs once in 4 seasons, you should be gonzo, full stop. But I don't see that being the case. 

He's getting his 5 years. "It's a situation where" he's getting his 5 years. 

And my gut/fear is that some will likely be talking about how the new GM (in two years) can't possibly turn things around quickly, after being "saddled" with the team Botterill left him, Skinner's massive albatross contract the new Okposo deal (but worse?), and so forth. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

24 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Sure, but +39 has some meaning.

Explain “his metrics” and why I should be concerned that Risto is on the ice for five or six shots a game less than his opponents when he is the coach’s first choice in our zone, and the coach wants his team to be far more judicious than most teams in when they choose to take shots.

As to the second Risto is a better player than Miller and a better player than Strome, who wasn’t enough of a 2C to hang on to the 2C spot in Chicago. I don’t want to trade our players for worse ones, regardless of our lack of balance on our depth chart. 

I do not agree Risto is better than Miller. But other than that I understand your point in bold. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

47 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Strome-centered offseason I'd be okay with:
Skinner - Eichs - decent forward acquisition, nothing crazy
Olofsson - Strome - Reinhart
Johansson - Kahun - Cozens
Girgs/equivalent - Larry/equivalent - Okposo, where equivalent means I don't want prospects here, I want established NHLers that can continue this line's role, maybe Reaves or something if we can't keep these two. MAYBE I'd be okay with Lazar full time there.

This gives, for organizational depth and injury callups, Asplund, Lazar, Tage, Mitts. Different skill sets depending on who is injured, and Casey and Mitts can do what guys like Drew and MacArthur did in 06/07, which is probably where they should be right now.

Strome-centered offseason that would make me angery: 
Skinner - Eichel - Reinhart
Olofsson - Strome - Kahun
Johansson - Mitts/Cozens - Thompson
Asplund - Lazar - Okposo 

Very little depth for call-ups, too much in the way of players who have only shown to be bad at this level, way too much dice-rolling once again.

Casey Nelson at forward, that's a new one. 

In your angry whopper lineup, what level of 2C add (instead of Strome) makes the rest of that ok?

Edited April 10, 2020 by Thorny

[Taro T]

15 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Botterill already has another 2 seasons. He already sold Pegula on 4 years to make the playoffs, it'll now be 5, considering the shortened off-season. No chance he passes up the opportunity of pushing things back, that extra job security, if it's in any way possible. Extenuating circumstances make it so. 

But, I mean if Botterill's team makes the playoffs next season, I'd be good with keeping him. It's honestly about results. 

But he shouldn't have a job if we miss (I mean, I'm firing him now, but). And I mean, if we miss by one point, with injuries, he should be fired. If you can't make the playoffs once in 4 seasons, you should be gonzo, full stop. But I don't see that being the case.

He's getting his 5 years. "It's a situation where" he's getting his 5 years. 

And my gut/fear is that some will likely be talking about how the new GM (in two years) can't possibly turn things around quickly, after being "saddled" with the team Botterill left him, Skinner's massive albatross contract the new Okposo deal (but worse?), and so forth. 

Really don't believe he's guaranteed that 5th year, but have believed for a long time that he'd be back next season.

The 2nd part of the bolded, to a large degree, is why I'm not necessarily on the can Botterill now bandwagon.  Really am not comfortable in the expectation that the next GM that gets brought in will be (ideally) a GM that looks at the team as it is and shore it up where necessary (honestly, fix 2C, 30-45 games worth of goaltending, and ideally get another top 6 winger and this team is in the playoffs and improving each year as the youth matures) or even 1 that wants to follow the Pittsburgh/ Chicago model that Botterill fancies.  Can readily see them bring in someone that favors the heavy Anaheim/ LA model, in which case we will see at least another 2 years of futility as guys that can work in the present system are useless to that heavy forecheck game.

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Really don't believe he's guaranteed that 5th year, but have believed for a long time that he'd be back next season.

The 2nd part of the bolded, to a large degree, is why I'm not necessarily on the can Botterill now bandwagon.  Really am not comfortable in the expectation that the next GM that gets brought in will be (ideally) a GM that looks at the team as it is and shore it up where necessary (honestly, fix 2C, 30-45 games worth of goaltending, and ideally get another top 6 winger and this team is in the playoffs and improving each year as the youth matures) or even 1 that wants to follow the Pittsburgh/ Chicago model that Botterill fancies.  Can readily see them bring in someone that favors the heavy Anaheim/ LA model, in which case we will see at least another 2 years of futility as guys that can work in the present system are useless to that heavy forecheck game.

Oh damn. At least my position was prepared to be optimistic should Botterill be fired haha

I'm not afraid of firing him because I can't remember a GM who's had as much weighted towards the negative side of the ledger as opposed to the positive. He's so bad lol

Eichel is reeeeeeeeally, reaaaally good at hockey. You have to be really, really, really bad to field a team around him who's sum total is worse than Eichel's rookie year team. We have some really talented pieces, not even just Jack. He's an actively bad GM. The Buffalo Sabres have for all intents and purposes added a Superstar since then (15-16) and gotten worse.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

11 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Casey Nelson at forward, that's a new one. 

In your angry whopper lineup, what level of 2C add (instead of Strome) makes the rest of that ok?

Capable of either winning a Selke or flirting with/hitting a point per game 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Randall Flagg

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Capable of either winning a Selke or flirting with/hitting a point per game 

Pipe dream, those guys don't get moved. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Pipe dream, those guys don't get moved. 

Which is why he'd better do a good job with our other open spots, and not just count on our guys stepping to fill 4 other holes! 

[Curt]

On 4/9/2020 at 7:46 PM, E4 ... Ke2 said:

Asplund, Lazar, Okposo, and Simmonds rounding out the line-up?  I worry about Cozens, Thompson, and Mittlestadt having issues while Asplund-Lazar-Okposo is unlikely to be as effective as LOG.  Does the low-end 2C compensate and get us to a playoff team?

I would like to see maybe Girgensons and definitely Larsson resigned to continue playing that bottom 6 puck possession line role with Okposo.

Simmonds can walk and Asplund wasn’t that good after his first few games.

[tom webster]

On 4/9/2020 at 8:44 PM, Randall Flagg said:

Strome-centered offseason I'd be okay with:
Skinner - Eichs - decent forward acquisition, nothing crazy
Olofsson - Strome - Reinhart
Johansson - Kahun - Cozens
Girgs/equivalent - Larry/equivalent - Okposo, where equivalent means I don't want prospects here, I want established NHLers that can continue this line's role, maybe Reaves or something if we can't keep these two. MAYBE I'd be okay with Lazar full time there.

This gives, for organizational depth and injury callups, Asplund, Lazar, Tage, Mitts. Different skill sets depending on who is injured, and Casey and Mitts can do what guys like Drew and MacArthur did in 06/07, which is probably where they should be right now.

Strome-centered offseason that would make me angery: 
Skinner - Eichel - Reinhart
Olofsson - Strome - Kahun
Johansson - Mitts/Cozens - Thompson
Asplund - Lazar - Okposo 

Very little depth for call-ups, too much in the way of players who have only shown to be bad at this level, way too much dice-rolling once again.

OMG, a VO-Strome-Sam line would get lit up against a team like Colorado. They might be the slowest line in the league.

Someone brought up Grigirenko. You could get him for nothing and I think he’d be a better acquisition.