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darksabre

2020-2021 Lineup Thread

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26 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

You don't know that and the Canucks were "outside" the wildcard race even as well as Miller was doing. They may not have made the playoffs either.

Actually I think it’s a pretty good estimate on my part.  The 2C was kind of the missing piece.  Vesey, Sheary, and Skinner are likely much more effective with a real pivot on the 2nd line.  One of Johansson or Vesey wouldn’t have been acquired (probably Johansson).The rest of the returning forward group would have all also sloted better and would have likely done better in their assigned roles.  Casey might have even gained confidence playing in offensively favorable matchup as the 3C or 4C. 

Honestly I feel our forward group would have been deeper then Van with Miller and our D group is better then theirs.  The only real reason Van was somewhat more competitive was the great 1st line play and Markstrom played Vezina type hockey.  
 

This would have been our roster with Miller

VO Eichel Reinhart

Skinner Miller Sheary/Vesey

Vesey/Sheary Casey KO

Girgensons Larsson ERod/Other

Lazar

While not a championship roster it is certainly much better then what we got and it would have had a minimum of 3 effective lines and possibly 4.  That would have been the difference and allowed us to leap over Mon and Fla in the standings.

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18 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Actually I think it’s a pretty good estimate on my part.  The 2C was kind of the missing piece.  Vesey, Sheary, and Skinner are likely much more effective with a real pivot on the 2nd line.  One of Johansson or Vesey wouldn’t have been acquired (probably Johansson).The rest of the returning forward group would have all also sloted better and would have likely done better in their assigned roles.  Casey might have even gained confidence playing in offensively favorable matchup as the 3C or 4C. 

Honestly I feel our forward group would have been deeper then Van with Miller and our D group is better then theirs.  The only real reason Van was somewhat more competitive was the great 1st line play and Markstrom played Vezina type hockey.  
 

This would have been our roster with Miller

VO Eichel Reinhart

Skinner Miller Sheary/Vesey

Vesey/Sheary Casey KO

Girgensons Larsson ERod/Other

Lazar

While not a championship roster it is certainly much better then what we got and it would have had a minimum of 3 effective lines and possibly 4.  That would have been the difference and allowed us to leap over Mon and Fla in the standings.

I disagree with your "pretty good estimate" and here's why....you estimate that Miller would have 50pts. Now, swap out Johansson (who was on pace for 41pts) with Miller. Do you think those 9pts would've put us in the playoffs "easily"? I really don't think so.

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2 hours ago, JohnC said:

Botterill thought that Mitts was ready for the 2C role. He grossly miscalculated and it was a factor in him losing his job. The past is the past and this offseason is a new offseason with opportunities to pursue. Can Adams and the new regime successfully address some of the major needs that have lingered for too long? I hope so. 

Attached is a 4 minute link from NHL.com with Marty Biron interviewing Cozens and showing some of his highlights. I don't know if Cozens will play any of the center positions this year but I do expect him to contribute.

 

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/

And he absolutely wasn't ready for 2C & should never have been put in the role either season.  He should've been centering the 3rd scoring line getting sheltered minutes against weaker opponents.  Housley threw him to the wolves far too often.

And this is coming from a supporter of Mittelstadt who hated him getting forced into the 2C role as soon as it started happening.

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6 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I disagree with your "pretty good estimate" and here's why....you estimate that Miller would have 50pts. Now, swap out Johansson (who was on pace for 41pts) with Miller. Do you think those 9pts would've put us in the playoffs "easily"? I really don't think so.

It’s not so much Miller’s points but how his presence slots the rest of the forwards. I like Johansson, but he didn’t exactly make those around him better.  

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3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It’s not so much Miller’s points but how his presence slots the rest of the forwards. I like Johansson, but he didn’t exactly make those around him better.  

Everything the same...swap Miller with Mojo. I don't see us being a playoff team.

Question? Do you think that as a 1-2yr stopgap we could get Staal from Minny and would it do any good? He played with both Adams and Skinner, maybe they could convince him? He's signed for 1more year at $3.25MM and we have some D available (they have 4D over 30yrs old).

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1 minute ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Everything the same...swap Miller with Mojo. I don't see us being a playoff team.

Question? Do you think that as a 1-2yr stopgap we could get Staal from Minny and would it do any good? He played with both Adams and Skinner, maybe they could convince him? He's signed for 1more year at $3.25MM and we have some D available (they have 4D over 30yrs old).

I like the idea of Staal as a 1-2 year bridge.  Cup winner, leader and still a solid player at 35.  He’d be a great mentor to Eichel, and kids like Mitts and Cozens.  He’d also leaves us with more cap space to do other things. However he has a M-NTC.  I’m still interested in Galchenyuk who is a UFA.  
 

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4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I like the idea of Staal as a 1-2 year bridge.  Cup winner, leader and still a solid player at 35.  He’d be a great mentor to Eichel, and kids like Mitts and Cozens.  He’d also leaves us with more cap space to do other things. However he has a M-NTC.  I’m still interested in Galchenyuk who is a UFA.  
 

The M-NTC is a 10 team no trade list and he might wave it or less likely we're not on it. 

Not sold on Galchenyuk.

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7 hours ago, Taro T said:

And he absolutely wasn't ready for 2C & should never have been put in the role either season.  He should've been centering the 3rd scoring line getting sheltered minutes against weaker opponents.  Housley threw him to the wolves far too often.

Casey didn’t play 2C in the classic sense though.  He didn’t have the 2nd most ice time among C’s and he was sheltered more than anyone else on the team.  I don’t think the narrative that Casey was just thrown to the wolves at 2C is actually true.  I don’t know how they could have sheltered him any more.

I suppose the correct answer is, don’t play him in the NHL, because he isn’t ready for the NHL and they didn’t have the roster to insulate him.

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9 hours ago, Taro T said:

And he absolutely wasn't ready for 2C & should never have been put in the role either season.  He should've been centering the 3rd scoring line getting sheltered minutes against weaker opponents.  Housley threw him to the wolves far too often.

And this is coming from a supporter of Mittelstadt who hated him getting forced into the 2C role as soon as it started happening.

You and I are in accord. But I'll even go farther than you on the Mittelstadt mishandling. He should instead have been sent to Rochester when he first entered the pro ranks and fully immersed in the AHL until he demonstrated that he was ready. Mitts has skills but physically and emotionally he was not ready. I hope that this mishandling due to force feeding the development process doesn't result in another Gregerenko (sic) situation, i.e. playing a touted prospect when not ready. My same reasoning applies to Tage Thompson. He should have sooner been sent to Rochester to get more playing time and more time to physically  develop. It takes tall and lean young players time to physically mature before they are ready to play with the thicker men in the NHL. 

It might seem that I am contradicting myself but I'm not in saying if there is a young player ready to make the NHL leap it is Cozens. He probably isn't ready to be a 2C right now but from a physical and maturity standpoint he is ready to play in the big league right now. It's a moot point because due to the AHL rules he is too young to play in the league and too good to benefit playing in the juniors. He is our 2C in waiting, and that wait won't be too long. 

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9 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Everything the same...swap Miller with Mojo. I don't see us being a playoff team.

Question? Do you think that as a 1-2yr stopgap we could get Staal from Minny and would it do any good? He played with both Adams and Skinner, maybe they could convince him? He's signed for 1more year at $3.25MM and we have some D available (they have 4D over 30yrs old).

It's interesting that you brought up the Staal option because it was discussed on WGR's the Instigator Show. When that scenario was brought up Marty Biron stated that Staal had no interest in leaving Minnesota. Biron mentioned that the Bruins wanted to acquire him this year for a Cup run. Biron noted that Staal would not agree to the move. So although the option of getting a stopgap veteran 2C is a good idea it doesn't apply to an unwilling player like Staal. 

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2 hours ago, Curt said:

Casey didn’t play 2C in the classic sense though.  He didn’t have the 2nd most ice time among C’s and he was sheltered more than anyone else on the team.  I don’t think the narrative that Casey was just thrown to the wolves at 2C is actually true.  I don’t know how they could have sheltered him any more.

I suppose the correct answer is, don’t play him in the NHL, because he isn’t ready for the NHL and they didn’t have the roster to insulate him.

Not going to go back through the game by game logs (have posted them before but the search function is woefully poor), but in at least about 50% of the games his rookie year he WAS centering the 2nd line.  His ice time was lowish in those games because the 2nd PP unit had little ice time & he got 0 PK usage.  But there were a LOT of games he wasn't sheltered.   Pretty much any of those games he was the 2C (or even the rare game where he was the 1C) he wasn't sheltered at all.  And the sheltering he got with reduced ice time as the 3rd scoring C still wasn't really sheltered because Housley didn't line match.

But he easily could have been sheltered had Phil did what he finally did down the stretch - playing Rodrigues as the 2C.  It wasn't ideal (obviously) but it was better (both on the ice & from a development standpoint for Casey) than plugging Casey into that role.

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1 hour ago, JohnC said:

You and I are in accord. But I'll even go farther than you on the Mittelstadt mishandling. He should instead have been sent to Rochester when he first entered the pro ranks and fully immersed in the AHL until he demonstrated that he was ready. Mitts has skills but physically and emotionally he was not ready. I hope that this mishandling due to force feeding the development process doesn't result in another Gregerenko (sic) situation, i.e. playing a touted prospect when not ready. My same reasoning applies to Tage Thompson. He should have sooner been sent to Rochester to get more playing time and more time to physically  develop. It takes tall and lean young players time to physically mature before they are ready to play with the thicker men in the NHL. 

It might seem that I am contradicting myself but I'm not in saying if there is a young player ready to make the NHL leap it is Cozens. He probably isn't ready to be a 2C right now but from a physical and maturity standpoint he is ready to play in the big league right now. It's a moot point because due to the AHL rules he is too young to play in the league and too good to benefit playing in the juniors. He is our 2C in waiting, and that wait won't be too long. 

Had Mittelstadt been the 3C and Housley actually used that line like the 4th line it should've been, Mittelstadt would've been fine.  Not disputing that he could've learned in the AHL, he improved down there from when he was 1dt sent down.  But he wouldn't have been set back w/ proper NHL usage IMHO.

Unless Cozens simply flat out EARNS the 2C don't want him anywhere near that role.  But actually, especially after watching him at the WJC, would not mind seeing him on Eichel's RW at least as a tryout.  (He can move back to C in a season or 2 if that combo works for now.)  You'd have 2/3s of the old Legion of Doom line there and a sniper to work the other side in either Skinner or Olofsson.  Realizing that's not a popular opinion here, but pretty sure it'd work. 

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6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Had Mittelstadt been the 3C and Housley actually used that line like the 4th line it should've been, Mittelstadt would've been fine.  Not disputing that he could've learned in the AHL, he improved down there from when he was 1dt sent down.  But he wouldn't have been set back w/ proper NHL usage IMHO.

Unless Cozens simply flat out EARNS the 2C don't want him anywhere near that role.  But actually, especially after watching him at the WJC, would not mind seeing him on Eichel's RW at least as a tryout.  (He can move back to C in a season or 2 if that combo works for now.)  You'd have 2/3s of the old Legion of Doom line there and a sniper to work the other side in either Skinner or Olofsson.  Realizing that's not a popular opinion here, but pretty sure it'd work. 

Your reasoning on Mitts makes a lot of sense but I slightly disagree with it. What Mitts needed, and so did Tage, is a lot of playing time and an opportunity to play a number of different roles such as the PP and PK etc. Mitts was a HS star who was supremely better than the players he played with. There was a sense of entitlement that he had when he was given playing time instead of earning playing time. It certainly didn't serve him and help with his development. 

I still believe that Mitts can be a good NHL player. He certainly has skills. What he needed was the time to emotionally and physically mature. In my opinion playing full time in Rochester when he became a pro would have served him well to the point that he would now be a more established player in the NHL and with a higher trajectory as a player. Ultimately, the short circuiting of the process didn't do him and the organization any favors.   

With respect to Cozens I consider him to be more emotionally and physically mature than Mitts when he entered the league. I'm not advocating Cozens to start off as a 2C but if he shows he can handle the role then I would have no problem with him assuming the role. My sense is that Cozens is more mature and resilient than Mitts was so if it didn't work out right away it wouldn't set him back.  

 

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2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Your reasoning on Mitts makes a lot of sense but I slightly disagree with it. What Mitts needed, and so did Tage, is a lot of playing time and an opportunity to play a number of different roles such as the PP and PK etc. Mitts was a HS star who was supremely better than the players he played with. There was a sense of entitlement that he had when he was given playing time instead of earning playing time. It certainly didn't serve him and help with his development. 

I still believe that Mitts can be a good NHL player. He certainly has skills. What he needed was the time to emotionally and physically mature. In my opinion playing full time in Rochester when he became a pro would have served him well to the point that he would now be a more established player in the NHL and with a higher trajectory as a player. Ultimately, the short circuiting of the process didn't do him and the organization any favors.   

With respect to Cozens I consider him to be more emotionally and physically mature than Mitts when he entered the league. I'm not advocating Cozens to start off as a 2C but if he shows he can handle the role then I would have no problem with him assuming the role. My sense is that Cozens is more mature and resilient than Mitts was so if it didn't work out right away it wouldn't set him back.  

 

IMHO, the 2 things Mittelstadt needed to get better at coming into the league is how to cover in the defensive zone (he literally looked like a lab puppy chasing a ball) & that skating the puck into a phone booth more oftentimes than not is a poor idea at the NHL level.

He definitely could've learned the former in the A (would contend he could get that playing 3C w/4th line usage at the NHL level too, but a trip to Ra-cha-cha would've worked), but not so sure he'd've learned the latter there.  Because skating through the photobooth & coming out the other side is what he did in HS, at Minnesota, & in the WJCs.  He does it some in Rochester.  Being in the NHL is where he'd LEARN he needs to pick his spots with it because it almost never works at that level. That habit isn't getting broken going directly to the A, IMHO.

Have never heard an interview w/ Cozens, so have no data on whether you're right about his maturity.  Hope you are.  But unless he flat out forces Krueger to play him at 2C by his dominant play; don't want him anywhere near that position.  And hoping he can do that as well, but really think it's unfair to have any expectations of that sort at present.

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1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Unless Cozens simply flat out EARNS the 2C don't want him anywhere near that role.  But actually, especially after watching him at the WJC, would not mind seeing him on Eichel's RW at least as a tryout.  (He can move back to C in a season or 2 if that combo works for now.)  You'd have 2/3s of the old Legion of Doom line there and a sniper to work the other side in either Skinner or Olofsson.  Realizing that's not a popular opinion here, but pretty sure it'd work. 

I’m on board with this, not only because I think it both helps our issues on RW, and it puts Dylan in a spot where he can succeed, but also because it would mean we actually have someone else on the roster capable playing 2C and 3C

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45 minutes ago, Taro T said:

IMHO, the 2 things Mittelstadt needed to get better at coming into the league is how to cover in the defensive zone (he literally looked like a lab puppy chasing a ball) & that skating the puck into a phone booth more oftentimes than not is a poor idea at the NHL level.

He definitely could've learned the former in the A (would contend he could get that playing 3C w/4th line usage at the NHL level too, but a trip to Ra-cha-cha would've worked), but not so sure he'd've learned the latter there.  Because skating through the photobooth & coming out the other side is what he did in HS, at Minnesota, & in the WJCs.  He does it some in Rochester.  Being in the NHL is where he'd LEARN he needs to pick his spots with it because it almost never works at that level. That habit isn't getting broken going directly to the A, IMHO.

Have never heard an interview w/ Cozens, so have no data on whether you're right about his maturity.  Hope you are.  But unless he flat out forces Krueger to play him at 2C by his dominant play; don't want him anywhere near that position.  And hoping he can do that as well, but really think it's unfair to have any expectations of that sort at present.

I think you are partly right becuase Mitts probably still can stickhandle a lot more in the AHL but it would have been the natural next step and instead he just got dropped in the NHL deep end carrying metal weights and not knowing how to swim. 

The thing I will say is Cozens plays a more power game. He isn't going to try and stick handle a ton to get somewhere, he will drive the line to get there and in the NHL, that can often be more effective. 

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1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I think you are partly right becuase Mitts probably still can stickhandle a lot more in the AHL but it would have been the natural next step and instead he just got dropped in the NHL deep end carrying metal weights and not knowing how to swim. 

The thing I will say is Cozens plays a more power game. He isn't going to try and stick handle a ton to get somewhere, he will drive the line to get there and in the NHL, that can often be more effective. 

A lot of straight lines and power moves to Dylan’s game. He’s going to be such a load coming off the wing with his speed when hits a man-sized 210.

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11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

A lot of straight lines and power moves to Dylan’s game. He’s going to be such a load coming off the wing with his speed when hits a man-sized 210.

Yep.  Once he grows into his frame he should be something the Sabres haven't had in a long time - a true prototype power forward.  (Not considering Okposo as he's not the same since the injury & not considering Eichel as he brings a finesse most power forwards can't.)

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7 hours ago, JohnC said:

It's interesting that you brought up the Staal option because it was discussed on WGR's the Instigator Show. When that scenario was brought up Marty Biron stated that Staal had no interest in leaving Minnesota. Biron mentioned that the Bruins wanted to acquire him this year for a Cup run. Biron noted that Staal would not agree to the move. So although the option of getting a stopgap veteran 2C is a good idea it doesn't apply to an unwilling player like Staal. 

I can see that, a Thunder Bay boy can’t get closer to home than Minnesota.

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9 hours ago, Taro T said:

Yep.  Once he grows into his frame he should be something the Sabres haven't had in a long time - a true prototype power forward.  (Not considering Okposo as he's not the same since the injury & not considering Eichel as he brings a finesse most power forwards can't.)

He's in prime position right now to do that. He can skate and weightlift in the Yukon because there's no one there with covid. I think I read an interview he's still skating regularly. 

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14 hours ago, Curt said:

Casey didn’t play 2C in the classic sense though.  He didn’t have the 2nd most ice time among C’s and he was sheltered more than anyone else on the team.  I don’t think the narrative that Casey was just thrown to the wolves at 2C is actually true.  I don’t know how they could have sheltered him any more.

I suppose the correct answer is, don’t play him in the NHL, because he isn’t ready for the NHL and they didn’t have the roster to insulate him.

It's funny, because the more you look into the C spine headed into 2018-2019, the harder it is to figure out exactly who the heck Botterill thought was going to play that 2C role. Mittelstadt? Rodrigues? Berglund? Sobotka? There is no answer that reflects positively on the decision making process. 

10 hours ago, dudacek said:

A lot of straight lines and power moves to Dylan’s game. He’s going to be such a load coming off the wing with his speed when hits a man-sized 210.

Like, playing wing?

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1 hour ago, Thorny said:

It's funny, because the more you look into the C spine headed into 2018-2019, the harder it is to figure out exactly who the heck Botterill thought was going to play that 2C role. Mittelstadt? Rodrigues? Berglund? Sobotka? There is no answer that reflects positively on the decision making process. 

Oh yes.  The C position, apart from Eichel and Larsson was non existent. A complete mess.  The personification of JBots failures.

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2 hours ago, Thorny said:

 

Like, playing wing?

Like, playing hockey. 😜

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On 6/26/2020 at 9:56 PM, Thorny said:

It's funny, because the more you look into the C spine headed into 2018-2019, the harder it is to figure out exactly who the heck Botterill thought was going to play that 2C role. Mittelstadt? Rodrigues? Berglund? Sobotka? There is no answer that reflects positively on the decision making process. 

Like, playing wing?

Would put money on it that Berglund was pencilled into that slot.  Sadly Mittelstadt was choice 2 and Sobotka choice 3.  Larsson would've been next up in that original org chart.  (Basing that on lines put out at the 1st day of training camp.)

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