2020-2021 Lineup Thread

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

I agree with your take. Where I diverge a little is that the acquisition of a genuine second center is an expensive proposition that will be very costly, maybe to the prohibitive point. Your second option of focusing on a team that needs to shed salary is a more likely option. And even with that option it will require a lot. 

Maybe the best option for the short term is to acquire a veteran center who can play on the second line at an acceptable level.  I think that Botterill had this approach in mind when he acquired Johansson. Let's not forget the hope is that Cozens will be ready to be the second center in a year or two. 

 

A big thing about acquiring a guy who can play 2C at an acceptable level is bringing in a guy who's actually played the position at said acceptable level the last few years, which Mojo certainly had not done. Which was why it was such a frustrating add. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

I think the best option is the option that elevates the skill level of the overall roster the most within the Eichel/Dahlin window.

For example (rhetorically speaking)

Would you rather have Ryan Johansen for 5 more years at $8 million, and no Brandon Montour and a 2nd rounder

or Anthony Cirelli for 7 years at $7 million and Ondrej Palat, but no 1st-round pick and Dylan Cozens.

or Taylor Hall for 7 years at $9 million

What are the other options lol

I'm probably against Johansen and Hall at those prices, but I'd lean toward Johansen if I had to pick as it's the shorter term. The price you listed there would also be totally doable. I wouldn't be angry if they did that. 

I'd love Cirelli but am very high on Cozens so agree with John I'd rather keep him. 

If Cirelli or a player like him can be had any other way than giving up Cozens, I'm down, obviously. If not, I think I favor the vet-2C stop gap option. Or a reasonably priced JT Miller type - who looks like he would have been perfect. 

One thing not acceptable is entering into the season with another middle-6 LW penciled in at 2C. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

46 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Lineup:

Skinner - Eichel - Kahun/Reinhart

Olofsson - Center (johansson) - Reinhart/Kahun

Mitts? - Cozens - Thompson

? - Larsson - Okposo

Lazar

 

Clearly another bottom of the league roster without a good 2C, it's the same team as last year. 

[DarthEbriate]

16 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Clearly another bottom of the league roster without a good 2C, it's the same team as last year. 

Yup. I'd hate to do to Cozens what we did to Mittelstadt. (And Grigorenko, Girgensons, and even Ennis to an extent), which is push a kid too fast to be that important. Even Kahun falls into this category. Kahun projected as a center, but got to be with Malkin, so...  play the wing. But even he would likely need a season as a 3C in a protected O-zone capacity to groom for the 2C role.

Now --- maybe Kahun is the guy. In which case, we need two bottom-six grinder style centers to kill penalties. Larsson becomes a critical re-sign. And maybe that moves Cozens to the wing to start his career. But we wouldn't know if Kahun can be the guy until 40-60 games into next season.

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

Yup. I'd hate to do to Cozens what we did to Mittelstadt. (And Grigorenko, Girgensons, and even Ennis to an extent), which is push a kid too fast to be that important. Even Kahun falls into this category. Kahun projected as a center, but got to be with Malkin, so...  play the wing. But even he would likely need a season as a 3C in a protected O-zone capacity to groom for the 2C role.

Now --- maybe Kahun is the guy. In which case, we need two bottom-six grinder style centers to kill penalties. Larsson becomes a critical re-sign. And maybe that moves Cozens to the wing to start his career. But we wouldn't know if Kahun can be the guy until 40-60 games into next season.

Right. Botterill's strategy no doubt would be to put his chips on this bet, plan for the best. It shouldn't be Adams. 

Botterill's rosters being littered with "hope for the best" scenarios is one of the most prominent staples of his 3 year tenure. 

[JohnC]

29 minutes ago, Thorny said:

A big thing about acquiring a guy who can play 2C at an acceptable level is bringing in a guy who's actually played the position at said acceptable level the last few years, which Mojo certainly had not done. Which was why it was such a frustrating add. 

He was a reasonable add for a reasonable price. Even though it is apparent that he is not a #2 center he is a solid and intelligent player added to a roster that needed additions. I don't want to get carried away because we have to see how things work out but I thought the Kahun-Johansson-Olofsson line showed some promise as a line in their short period together. It wouldn't surprised me if this line is put together Kahun ends up being the center. 

Botterill rightfully receives a lot of criticism. However, he should get credit for his deals for Jokiharju and Kahun without giving up much. Both of these transactions were sneaky good deals that are going to have long term benefits. 

[DarthEbriate]

27 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Botterill's rosters being littered with "hope for the best" scenarios is one of the most prominent staples of his 3 year tenure. 

It's like the draft -- you want as many shots as possible. You just can't count on those shots to be half of your roster.

20 minutes ago, JohnC said:

He was a reasonable add for a reasonable price. Even though it is apparent that he is not a #2 center he is a solid and intelligent player added to a roster that needed additions. I don't want to get carried away because we have to see how things work out but I thought the Kahun-Johansson-Olofsson line showed some promise as a line in their short period together. It wouldn't surprised me if this line is put together Kahun ends up being the center. 

Botterill rightfully receives a lot of criticism. However, he should get credit for his deals for Jokiharju and Kahun without giving up much. Both of these transactions were sneaky good deals that are going to have long term benefits. 

It'd be awesome if it's Kahun. We already have him. But even he needs the stop gap 2C while he gets up to speed as an NHL center. And, if it allowed Skinner to go back to Eichel and net 30+ for a few consecutive seasons...  And it would allow Cozens to finish up his rookie deal in protected 3C...  This 2C role is so vitally important. Gosh, if only we had a... GAH! I need a drink to get over ROR.

[JohnC]

25 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

It's like the draft -- you want as many shots as possible. You just can't count on those shots to be half of your roster.

It'd be awesome if it's Kahun. We already have him. But even he needs the stop gap 2C while he gets up to speed as an NHL center. And, if it allowed Skinner to go back to Eichel and net 30+ for a few consecutive seasons...  And it would allow Cozens to finish up his rookie deal in protected 3C...  This 2C role is so vitally important. Gosh, if only we had a... GAH! I need a drink to get over ROR.

The ROR deal turned out to be a crusher that to this day reverberates. I understand why the GM felt that he needed to trade the disgruntled center who publicly let it be known that he wanted out. The GM was facing a bonus date for the player and he didn't want to be locked into a player on a long term contract who wanted out. The GM was in the early process of rebuilding the roster and didn't want an unhappy core player to contaminate the young roster. It doesn't take much hindsight wisdom to recognize that this was a stupendous mistake. In the deal with St. Louis we they weren't even willing to give up one of their top two prospects for one of the best two way centermen in the league. So Botts settled on Tage as a piece in the deal. Maybe he will turn out a good player but it is still in question. 

The moral of the story in the ROR saga is not to act out of desperation. If he needed to be dealt then you either get fair value in return or wait until you do. I also feel the same way in a proposed Risto deal.   

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

He was a reasonable add for a reasonable price. Even though it is apparent that he is not a #2 center he is a solid and intelligent player added to a roster that needed additions. I don't want to get carried away because we have to see how things work out but I thought the Kahun-Johansson-Olofsson line showed some promise as a line in their short period together. It wouldn't surprised me if this line is put together Kahun ends up being the center. 

Botterill rightfully receives a lot of criticism. However, he should get credit for his deals for Jokiharju and Kahun without giving up much. Both of these transactions were sneaky good deals that are going to have long term benefits. 

You are determined to disagree with me, and that's fine. I was clearly talking about how he was a disappointment relative to the role he was asked to fill. An unquestionable blunder by the GM. 

One cannot argue successfully that Botterill adequately addressed the position, and my argument is that the position does need to be adequately addressed, unlike previous seasons.

I have not said there is no place for a Johansson level talent on the roster. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Thorny

[JohnC]

49 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You are determined to disagree with me, and that's fine. I was clearly talking about how he was a disappointment relative to the role he was asked to fill. An unquestionable blunder by the GM. 

One cannot argue successfully that Botterill adequately addressed the position, and my argument is that the position does need to be adequately addressed, unlike previous seasons.

I have not said there is no place for a Johansson level talent on the roster. 

There is no question that there is a gaping hole at the 2C spot. Tell me who the GM could have brought in last year to play the 2C spot? The top 2 center positions are prized commodities. Teams that have them are reluctant to part with them unless the return is sizeable. 

The Sabres were a rebuilding team. They had numerous major needs. Filling those high level needs (second line caliber of players) was not going to happen in one offseason. The GM dangled Risto last offseason to attempt to address the second line. After scanning the market the return was not sufficient. Again, let me know who you thought could have been secured as a 2C last year and at what price? 

note: I didn't deliberately highlight the response. For some reason the post came back highlighted. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by JohnC

[Thorny]

14 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There is no question that there is a gaping hole at the 2C spot. Tell me who the GM could have brought in last year to play the 2C spot? The top 2 center positions are prized commodities. Teams that have them are reluctant to part with them unless the return is sizeable. 

The Sabres were a rebuilding team. They had numerous major needs. Filling those high level needs (second line caliber of players) was not going to happen in one offseason. The GM dangled Risto last offseason to attempt to address the second line. After scanning the market the return was not sufficient. Again, let me know who you thought could have been secured as a 2C last year and at what price? 

note: I didn't deliberately highlight the response. For some reason the post came back highlighted. 

 

 

JT Miller. 

- - - 

Also, it's been 2 full years running without it being adequately addressed. Unacceptable. This is always the defense of Botterill, when there is one. "Sure, he created the hole himself, and he failed to address it, the second most important position in the forward ranks, for two full years, but, what can you do? Adding good players is hard!"

Batter up!

Edited June 25, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Nazem Kadri was available, Vincent Trochek was available. jt Miller

Pageau, Gagner, Marleau, Cousins, Backes, Eakin, Stephenson, Namestnikov, Gusev, Shaw, Galchenyuk, Haula, Soderberg....

Lotsa guys who can play centre moved in the past year.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Nazem Kadri was available, Vincent Trochek was available. jt Miller

Pageau, Gagner, Marleau, Cousins, Backes, Eakin, Stephenson, Namestnikov, Gusev, Shaw, Galchenyuk, Haula, Soderberg....

Lotsa guys who can play centre moved in the past year.

I wanted all 3 in your first list and wanted us to take a shot a Galchenyuk also.  The rest not so much. 

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

JT Miller. 

- - - 

Also, it's been 2 full years running without it being adequately addressed. Unacceptable. 

I remember a lot of Canuck fans upset at the price they paid for Miller at the time. Some of them said “why did we have to go so high? They had to trade him” I say they were in a bidding war.

I would be surprised if we didn’t have the Ryan Johnson pick on the table and the Canucks upped the ante to their first this year to beat it, and Botterill declined to match that offer.

Edited June 25, 2020 by dudacek

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

JT Miller. 

- - - 

Also, it's been 2 full years running without it being adequately addressed. Unacceptable. 

The price for Miller was a first round pick. That pick was used for Cozens. For me keeping the pick and selecting Cozens will prove to be the better course to have  taken. If you have a different opinion that is fine. On the other hand I would have no reluctance to use this year's first round pick in a deal to acquire a second line forward. 

I have said it in other posts and without an qualification: Cozens should not be dealt unless it is a crazy deal that will benefit dramatically benefit us. In the real world I don't see that happening. 

 

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I remember a lot of Canuck fans upset at the price they paid for Miller at the time. Some of them said “why did we have to go so high, they had to trade him?”

I would be surprised if we didn’t have the Ryan Johnson pick on the table and the Canucks upped the anti to their first this year to beat it, and Botterill declined to match that offer.

And the Canucks are looking pretty darn good right about now. JT had 6 less points than Jack Eichel. 

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The price for Miller was a first round pick. That pick was used for Cozens. For me keeping the pick and selecting Cozens will prove to be the better course to have  taken. If you have a different opinion that is fine. On the other hand I would have no reluctance to use this year's first round pick in a deal to acquire a second line forward. 

I have said it in other posts and without an qualification: Cozens should not be dealt unless it is a crazy deal that will benefit dramatically benefit us. In the real world I don't see that happening. 

 

No, the pick is for this year's draft. Lottery protected. We'd have been dealing them our 1st round pick next year. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The price for Miller was a first round pick. That pick was used for Cozens. For me keeping the pick and selecting Cozens will prove to be the better course to have  taken. If you have a different opinion that is fine. On the other hand I would have no reluctance to use this year's first round pick in a deal to acquire a second line forward. 

I have said it in other posts and without an qualification: Cozens should not be dealt unless it is a crazy deal that will benefit dramatically benefit us. In the real world I don't see that happening. 

 

By the way, welcome to the board.

Glad to have your contributions.

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Nazem Kadri was available, Vincent Trochek was available. jt Miller

Pageau, Gagner, Marleau, Cousins, Backes, Eakin, Stephenson, Namestnikov, Gusev, Shaw, Galchenyuk, Haula, Soderberg....

Lotsa guys who can play centre moved in the past year.

What were the asking prices? I said it before and I will continue to maintain my position that using our first round pick for Cozens instead of dealing it away will prove to be the right move. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by JohnC

[dudacek]

Just now, JohnC said:

Who were the asking prices? I said it before and I will continue to maintain my position that using our first round pick for Cozens instead of dealing it away will prove to be the right move. 

Wouldn’t have given up that pick for any of those players. Wouldn’t have had to for any of them.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Wouldn’t have given up that pick for any of those players. Wouldn’t have had to for any of them.

I'll just take one of the players you listed and point out the complicating factors that make such a deal difficult to consummate. Nazem Kadri would have been a terrific addition to the Sabres. He would have filled the second line center role and added some toughness to the roster. But that deal was unlikely because Toronto had little interest in making a deal with a divisional rival that they often played. Even if the Sabres offered more than what Colorado gave up, Barrie plus other considerations, the Leafs wouldn't want to strengthen their cross the border rival. 

I'm hoping this offseason the new GM and his staff can make a deal for a credible second center. My only caveat is that under no circumstances am I willing to include Cozens in a deal. 

[dudacek]

18 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'll just take one of the players you listed and point out the complicating factors that make such a deal difficult to consummate. Nazem Kadri would have been a terrific addition to the Sabres. He would have filled the second line center role and added some toughness to the roster. But that deal was unlikely because Toronto had little interest in making a deal with a divisional rival that they often played. Even if the Sabres offered more than what Colorado gave up, Barrie plus other considerations, the Leafs wouldn't want to strengthen their cross the border rival. 

I'm hoping this offseason the new GM and his staff can make a deal for a credible second center. My only caveat is that under no circumstances am I willing to include Cozens in a deal. 

Sure, there are reasons why individual deals don’t get done, but like @Thornysays (except when he’s talking about Jeff Skinner ?) in the end it comes down to performance. 
It was Botterill’s job to get a 2C, and for two years in a row, he didn’t get it done.

Edited June 26, 2020 by dudacek

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Sure, there are reasons why individual deals don’t get done, but like @Thornysays (except when he’s talking about Jeff Skinner ?) in the end it comes down to performance. 
It was Botterill’s job to get a 2C, and for two years in a row, he didn’t get it done.

Botterill thought that Mitts was ready for the 2C role. He grossly miscalculated and it was a factor in him losing his job. The past is the past and this offseason is a new offseason with opportunities to pursue. Can Adams and the new regime successfully address some of the major needs that have lingered for too long? I hope so. 

Attached is a 4 minute link from NHL.com with Marty Biron interviewing Cozens and showing some of his highlights. I don't know if Cozens will play any of the center positions this year but I do expect him to contribute.

 

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

And the Canucks are looking pretty darn good right about now. JT had 6 less points than Jack Eichel. 

No, the pick is for this year's draft. Lottery protected. We'd have been dealing them our 1st round pick next year. 

But...but...he played 1 more game than Jack. Lol

But seriously, do you think that JT playing 2C on the Sabres instead of on the top line with Petterson and Boeser, that he would be 6 pts behind Jack?

Asking for an acquaintance.

Edited June 26, 2020 by MakeSabresGrr8Again
Darn spellcheck

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

But...but...he played 1 more game than Jack. Lol

But seriously, do you think that JT playing 2C on the Sabres instead of on the top line with Petterson and Boeser, that he would be 6 pts behind Jack?

Asking for an acquaintance.

No but 50 pts as our 2nd line center would have made us a solid playoff team.  Skinner probably would have had 30 goals and our 2 PP may have even scored occasionally.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No but 50 pts as our 2nd line center would have made us a solid playoff team.  Skinner probably would have had 30 goals and our 2 PP may have even scored occasionally.

You don't know that and the Canucks were "outside" the wildcard race even as well as Miller was doing. They may not have made the playoffs either.