2020-2021 Lineup Thread

[sabresparaavida]

If Reinhart isn't on Eichels line, without adding to the roster, it is likely one of Kahun/Thompson. Ideally Thompson shows he can hang there, and that leaves Kahun as a 3rd line Rw, which is a good sign for the team. I have a feeling that this season is going to depend a lot on the youngsters. Even if we pick up a 2C like Granlund, we still will be in need of 2? Of the kids stepping up. 

Here's what the lines might look like with Reinhart on line 2.

Ideally:

Olofsson-Eichel-Thompson

Skinner-Granlund/trade 2c?-Reinhart

Johansson-Cozens-Kahun

Lazar/asplund/girgs?/Larsson?-Okposo. 

This lineup (provided Thompson/Cozens can play) actually looks solid. Best middle six we have had in years. That top line might get a little bullied, but I'm hoping Eichels will sort of cancel that out. 

If Cozens/Thompson disappoint:

Oloffson-Eichel-Kahun

Skinner-Granlund/trade 2c?-Reinhart

Asplund-Johansson-Lazar

Girgs?-Larsson?-Okposo

The 2nd line is still good, but that 3rd line looks like it's going to be slaughtered just about every game.

[sabresparaavida]

And then there's the worst case scenario where we don't add a 2C, and the kids can't really play, but still have to.

Oloffson-Eichel-Reinhart

Skinner-johansson-Kahun

Mitts-Cozens-Thompson

Asplund-Lazar-okposo

With some mid to bottom their FA mixed in there

[dudacek]

Granlund can and has played centre, but his recent years, and his best years are as a winger.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Granlund can and has played centre, but his recent years, and his best years are as a winger.

Centre in a Ville kind of way, or in the way of a player that has actually played centre in the NHL?

I will take another top 6 winger at this point, so long as there is a legit C coming in too.

[dudacek]

19 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Centre in a Ville kind of way, or in the way of a player that has actually played centre in the NHL?

I will take another top 6 winger at this point, so long as there is a legit C coming in too.

More like a Johansson kinda way. He was drafted as a centre and played there his first few seasons.

As far as I know, he hasn’t played it much the past four years.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Just now, dudacek said:

More like a Johansson kinda way. He was drafted as a centre and played there his first few seasons.

As far as I know, he hasn’t played it much the past four years.

Very good.  I kind of new that.  Just playing around a bit.  You know it's the dragging offseason, that has not even started yet.  This offseason will be the longest ever.  From March 1st(ish) to whenever.

[Thorny]

On 6/23/2020 at 8:44 AM, sabresparaavida said:

Agree on Hall. I was just saying that I think they are willing to spend.

This is good, but I still think the most likely way for us to get a quality 2C will be through trade. 

On 6/23/2020 at 1:47 PM, Taro T said:

Granlund is about the only UFA that makes potential sense at 2C though he's not an ideal fit there.  But that does still leave the glut of RHD that now could be used to obtain 1 more true top 6 RW which is an easier thing to pull off.  It also could set up a bit of an '06 style F corps as Johansson & Kahun slot into the 3rd line as very good pieces and it allows the 3rd piece of that line to be any one of the 3 Botterill acquired kids depending on which of the 3 actually earn it as Kahun or Johansson should be good enough at 3C if necessary to make that work.  Ideally, Larsson & Girgensons come back to keep the 4th line intact (or even better, those 2 come back & Okposo retires allowing a young guy making 4th line money to round out the line.  (Lazar 12th / Asplund 13th or vice versa.) 

Would rather see a trade for that 2RW than pencilling in Ruotsalainen or JBotts triplet though any of the 4 could possibly surprise or Kahun could fit there.

Fix the goaltending, and we're in business.

Who are the Botterill triplets? Casey, Tage and..?

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Granlund can and has played centre, but his recent years, and his best years are as a winger.

So I'm officially out on Granlund. We've tried to fill that spot with a "can do this (or has done this) but is actually better at this" too many times. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Thorny

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

This is good, but I still think the most likely way for us to get a quality 2C will be through trade. 

Who are the Botterill triplets? Casey, Tage and..?

So I'm officially out on Granlund. We've tried to fill that spot with a "can do this (or has done this) but is actually better at this" too many times. 

Mittelstadt, Thompson, & Cozens.  All young forwards brought in with high expectations (at least on Botterill's part).

[PerreaultForever]

17 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Well, it depends on how well the 2C, Cozens and the 3RW play -- i.e. whether they can go from a 1-line team to a 3-line team -- and, more importantly, whether they get better goaltending.

If both of those elements come in, then yes, I think this is a playoff team.

 

optimistic, but I'd have to see it to believe in it. i really like Cozens, but no way do I think he can impact next year. maybe the year after. 

It's going to take even more than a 10-0 start to win me over this year. 

[JohnC]

12 hours ago, Taro T said:

Mittelstadt, Thompson, & Cozens. All young forwards brought in with high expectations (at least on Botterill's part).

Botterill believed in a strategy of drafting and developing in building a roster. His success was predicated on that approach. As it turned out the development process was not fast enough to salvage his job. That is not to say that his strategy was wrong. Are Mittelstadt, Thompson and Cozens ready to make the jump as NHL contributors? I don't know? My belief is if two of the three players do play as contributing third line players then there will be more puzzle pieces and flexibility to work with in order to assemble functioning (goal scoring) lines behind the Jack lines. (I believe that Cozens is going to be a gem but it's going to take at least another year or two to develop into a primary/core player.)

At the end of the season Krueger played Kahun-Johansson-Olofsson as a line. This was a good skating line that was able to generate scoring chances. And because this was such a good skating line it seemed that Kahun and Johansson were each capable of playing the center position. I wouldn't categorize this as a second caliber line but it was in my mind a good third line. 

What is evident is that the organization needs to bring in at least one second line forward to create a line that can take some of the scoring pressure off of the Jack line. Getting a second-line center is not an easy task because you have to give up a lot to get that accomplished. If that can't be done then there is still a need to get a second line forward added to the roster. 

My preference right now is to have Jack playing on a line with Skinner and Reinhart. I would rather have that one potent line than disperse the wingers on lower lines that will make them less effective.

 

[Drag0nDan]

34 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Botterill believed in a strategy of drafting and developing in building a roster. His success was predicated on that approach. As it turned out the development process was not fast enough to salvage his job. That is not to say that his strategy was wrong. Are Mittelstadt, Thompson and Cozens ready to make the jump as NHL contributors? I don't know? My belief is if two of the three players do play as contributing third line players then there will be more puzzle pieces and flexibility to work with in order to assemble functioning (goal scoring) lines behind the Jack lines. (I believe that Cozens is going to be a gem but it's going to take at least another year or two to develop into a primary/core player.)

At the end of the season Krueger played Kahun-Johansson-Olofsson as a line. This was a good skating line that was able to generate scoring chances. And because this was such a good skating line it seemed that Kahun and Johansson were each capable of playing the center position. I wouldn't categorize this as a second caliber line but it was in my mind a good third line. 

What is evident is that the organization needs to bring in at least one second line forward to create a line that can take some of the scoring pressure off of the Jack line. Getting a second-line center is not an easy task because you have to give up a lot to get that accomplished. If that can't be done then there is still a need to get a second line forward added to the roster. 

My preference right now is to have Jack playing on a line with Skinner and Reinhart. I would rather have that one potent line than disperse the wingers on lower lines that will make them less effective.

 

Yeah - Colorado loads up that top line with Landeskong, mckinnon, rantanen.  If johansson is with olofsson and kahun - that basically becomes line 2.  Okposo would play on more of that shutdown line with lazar and larsson or possibly asplund?  I assume that is the group starting in the defensive zone the most.  That leaves you with - cozens mitts asplund thompson.  I think there needs to be either a player via trade/fa there because thats a lot of youth on 1 line.  

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

Yeah - Colorado loads up that top line with Landeskong, mckinnon, rantanen.  If johansson is with olofsson and kahun - that basically becomes line 2.  Okposo would play on more of that shutdown line with lazar and larsson or possibly asplund?  I assume that is the group starting in the defensive zone the most.  That leaves you with - cozens mitts asplund thompson.  I think there needs to be either a player via trade/fa there because thats a lot of youth on 1 line.  

I agree that there needs to be a second line caliber of player added more likely through a trade than through the free agent market. However it is done it will most likely be done within the framework of a dollar contract sent out in order to bring in a dollar contract. 

For the sake of argument what are our current biggest trade assets? Risto and our #1 pick seem to be our biggest market chips. As it stands it appears that Krueger likes Risto a lot because he adds an element of physicality that the unit doesn't much have. Other than McCabe the unit is staffed with skaters and finesse players. So if Risto is retained then what options does the organization has to build up one of the lines. Why not get a little radical and put together a youth line composed of Cozens-Mitts-and Tage? Is it too young and inexperienced? Probably so. But if Krueger can get it to play with some energy this would be an interesting and maybe even an entertaining option as a trial experiment.  

 

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I agree that there needs to be a second line caliber of player added more likely through a trade than through the free agent market. However it is done it will most likely be done within the framework of a dollar contract sent out in order to bring in a dollar contract. 

For the sake of argument what are our current biggest trade assets? Risto and our #1 pick seem to be our biggest market chips. As it stands it appears that Krueger likes Risto a lot because he adds an element of physicality that the unit doesn't much have. Other than McCabe the unit is staffed with skaters and finesse players. So if Risto is retained then what options does the organization has to build up one of the lines. Why not get a little radical and put together a youth line composed of Cozens-Mitts-and Tage? Is it too young and inexperienced? Probably so. But if Krueger can get it to play with some energy this would be an interesting and maybe even an entertaining option as a trial experiment.  

 

Montour. 

[Drag0nDan]

10 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I agree that there needs to be a second line caliber of player added more likely through a trade than through the free agent market. However it is done it will most likely be done within the framework of a dollar contract sent out in order to bring in a dollar contract. 

For the sake of argument what are our current biggest trade assets? Risto and our #1 pick seem to be our biggest market chips. As it stands it appears that Krueger likes Risto a lot because he adds an element of physicality that the unit doesn't much have. Other than McCabe the unit is staffed with skaters and finesse players. So if Risto is retained then what options does the organization has to build up one of the lines. Why not get a little radical and put together a youth line composed of Cozens-Mitts-and Tage? Is it too young and inexperienced? Probably so. But if Krueger can get it to play with some energy this would be an interesting and maybe even an entertaining option as a trial experiment.  

 

Could always move montour and mitts or thompson if you want to hang onto the 1st (and i think they should)

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Montour. 

I'm not sure how much value Montour has in a trade especially since his contract is either up or will be up in a year. It was widely reported last year that Botts sought to trade Risto prior to the season. Apparently the return wasn't as great as anticipated. So he was retained. There are many people who are forcefully advocating for a trade to get a second line center. The cost is very high. 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

Could always move montour and mitts or thompson if you want to hang onto the 1st (and i think they should)

As I stated in a prior post the value many are placing on our players is much higher than they actually have on the market. Both Mitts and Thompson have not demonstrated that they can develop into anything more than third line players, if that. As I stated before if you want to procure a second line center you will have to give up talent that will result in deficits in other areas. Under no circumstances am I dealing Cozens or even Joki. 

Maybe our best option is getting a veteran second tier second center who is more of a third line center as a temporary fix until Cozens develops into hopefully our second center?

 

[dudacek]

The prudent move for Adams is to follow two streams:

• pinpoint the 2Cs he wants and knock on doors about price and availability
• look at the teams who have to shed salary and are willing to move a good player in order to so.

Good options should materialize out of those conversations.

Edited June 25, 2020 by dudacek

[JohnC]

17 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The prudent move for Adams is to follow two streams:

• pinpoint the 2Cs he wants and knock on doors about price and availability
• look at the teams who have to shed salary and are willing to move a good player in order to so.

Good options should materialize out of those conversations.

I agree with your take. Where I diverge a little is that the acquisition of a genuine second center is an expensive proposition that will be very costly, maybe to the prohibitive point. Your second option of focusing on a team that needs to shed salary is a more likely option. And even with that option it will require a lot. 

Maybe the best option for the short term is to acquire a veteran center who can play on the second line at an acceptable level.  I think that Botterill had this approach in mind when he acquired Johansson. Let's not forget the hope is that Cozens will be ready to be the second center in a year or two. 

 

[DarthEbriate]

25 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The prudent move for Adams is to follow two streams:

• pinpoint the 2Cs he wants and knock on doors about price and availability
• look at the teams who have to shed salary and are willing to move a good player in order to so.

Good options should materialize out of those conversations.

The other bullet we need to consider with Adams with which we've only heard buzz-terms like "blue collar" is the style of player he wants. Just like we saw with GMTM and JBot, it's about your style of player, too.

Reinhart is a good player, Kahun has shown flashes in the NHL. Tage and Mitts and Asplund have potential. None of them are physical that I've seen. Reino forechecks fairly well working the angles and plays the boards well positionally -- but no defenseman handling the puck at his goal line is worried about Reinhart finishing him into the glass. So --- in addition to 2C --- it's about how he stacks his roster to work together. And are all of these players trade chips rather than the kind of player GM Kheevyn wants.

Adams may be satisfied with a Brian Boyle for all we know. Or he might want Malone as the 4C out of Rochester instead of Asplund.

[Drag0nDan]

9 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

The other bullet we need to consider with Adams with which we've only heard buzz-terms like "blue collar" is the style of player he wants. Just like we saw with GMTM and JBot, it's about your style of player, too.

Reinhart is a good player, Kahun has shown flashes in the NHL. Tage and Mitts and Asplund have potential. None of them are physical that I've seen. Reino forechecks fairly well working the angles and plays the boards well positionally -- but no defenseman handling the puck at his goal line is worried about Reinhart finishing him into the glass. So --- in addition to 2C --- it's about how he stacks his roster to work together. And are all of these players trade chips rather than the kind of player GM Kheevyn wants.

Adams may be satisfied with a Brian Boyle for all we know. Or he might want Malone as the 4C out of Rochester instead of Asplund.

I look at blue collar like - difficult to play against, and hard working.  I don't think you need to have more than 1 or 2 guys who are hard hitters, just emphasis on being a tough team to play against.

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I agree with your take. Where I diverge a little is that the acquisition of a genuine second center is an expensive proposition that will be very costly, maybe to the prohibitive point. Your second option of focusing on a team that needs to shed salary is a more likely option. And even with that option it will require a lot. 

Maybe the best option for the short term is to acquire a veteran center who can play on the second line at an acceptable level.  I think that Botterill had this approach in mind when he acquired Johansson. Let's not forget the hope is that Cozens will be ready to be the second center in a year or two. 

 

I think the best option is the option that elevates the skill level of the overall roster the most within the Eichel/Dahlin window.

For example (rhetorically speaking)

Would you rather have Ryan Johansen for 5 more years at $8 million, and no Brandon Montour and a 2nd rounder

or Anthony Cirelli for 7 years at $7 million and Ondrej Palat, but no 1st-round pick and Dylan Cozens.

or Taylor Hall for 7 years at $9 million

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think the best option is the option that elevates the skill level of the overall roster the most within the Eichel/Dahlin window.

For example (rhetorically speaking)

Would you rather have Ryan Johansen for 5 more years at $8 million, and no Brandon Montour and a 2nd rounder

or Anthony Cirelli for 7 years at $7 million and Ondrej Palat, but no 1st-round pick and Dylan Cozens.

or Taylor Hall for 7 years at $9 million

The issue for Ryan Johansen is not that I wouldn't give up Montour and a 2nd rounder for him as it is  would I take him on for five more years at $8 million dollars. I would say no because I strongly believe that in a year or so Cozens could be a second line center, and for the immediate term give you playing time at a lower line. 

I don't see Tampa dealing Cirelli. They will work out something to retain him. Again, I'm not giving up Cozens. I would be willing to deal Risto and a first for Cirelli but I would have to secure his services on a long term deal first. 

Would I sign Hall for 7 years at $9 million? No, I don't think he is worth the annual cost or the length of the term. 

Again, Cozens for me is an untouchable. I will not yield on that issue. I'm confident that he will be a very good player and on his first contract he will provide the team with cap flexibility to pursue other good player/s that other teams can't afford to keep. Again and again, Cozens is an untouchable. 

 

 

[DarthEbriate]

38 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

I look at blue collar like - difficult to play against, and hard working.  I don't think you need to have more than 1 or 2 guys who are hard hitters, just emphasis on being a tough team to play against.

Agreed - we don't need a team of DLo/Kaletas, but we do need the willingness to finish a check throughout the lineup. Really, the only routine hitters (and none of them known for it) are Girgs, Larry, and Okposo (and we wince for him when Okposo hits the boards). The question is, of the top 9, who is hard to play against? Eichel can be maddening for opponents; Reino and Eichel make a very good forechecking duo with their positioning and explosiveness, respectively; and Skinner has a good bit of pest in him, with the bad penalties to support it. It's back to our middle six being just... blase.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

Agreed - we don't need a team of DLo/Kaletas, but we do need the willingness to finish a check throughout the lineup. Really, the only routine hitters (and none of them known for it) are Girgs, Larry, and Okposo (and we wince for him when Okposo hits the boards). The question is, of the top 9, who is hard to play against? Eichel can be maddening for opponents; Reino and Eichel make a very good forechecking duo with their positioning and explosiveness, respectively; and Skinner has a good bit of pest in him, with the bad penalties to support it. It's back to our middle six being just... blase.

That's why Cozens should be interesting to see. That's why I don't necessarily want us to draft Holtz or Raymond. That is why Rossi and Jarvis intrigue me so much. The constant forechecking pressure, not hitting, just constantly being hounded.

[LGR4GM]

Lineup:

Skinner - Eichel - Kahun/Reinhart

Olofsson - Center (johansson) - Reinhart/Kahun

Mitts? - Cozens - Thompson

? - Larsson - Okposo

Lazar