Whose idea was the tank and whose decision was it?

[Lanny]

The point is that if you are good enough to get to the 1st round and perhaps win a round every year -- which the Sabres were, 1.5 seasons before commencing the tank -- you are MUCH closer to cup contention than you are if you tank.  So if you find yourself in that situation, you don't panic and burn it to the ground in the hopes of winning the powerball lottery.  You incrementally build and improve your team every year so that you can get to the level that, say, Nashville or SJ (2 teams that didn't tank) are in -- i.e. legit final 4 teams with legit SCF chances, every GD year -- and where regular-season home games are sold out and rocking good times. 

Nashville didn't tank, but they had the 3rd worst team in 2013.

 

What was Washington thinking with the Erat for Forsberg deal?

Edited March 29, 2018 by Lanny

[nfreeman]

Nashville didn't tank, but they had the 3rd worst team in 2013.

 

What was Washington thinking with the Erat for Forsberg deal?

 

I think that was the year that Rinne was hurt though, right?

 

That Forsberg trade is exactly the kind of smart move that good teams make to build to incrementally improve.

[WildCard]

SJ's highest pick since 2003 was #8 in 2005 (Setoguchi).

 

And yes, I do want a team like SJ or Nashville -- one that is smartly put together, is in the hunt every year and, to get where they are, never had to endure a generation in the wilderness like the Sabres have inflicted on their fans.

 

And I realize that Nashville lost to Pittsburgh last year.  But that does NOT mean that hoping for a miracle Malkin-Crosby run in the lottery is a smart way to build a team.  It just means that Pittsburgh won the once-in-50-years powerball. 

Joe Thornton was drafted 1st overall

Marleau was drafted 2nd overall

 

Nashville hit consistently on later round picks; Arvidsson, Weber, Josi, etc. If you have a GM/AGM combo that has been together for decades and can pull that off, congrats. Or, if you have a GM in Washington willing to trade away a perennial 30g scorer, or one in Boston willing to trade away a Thronton, good for you. Those trades are out of your control, tanking isn't. 

I think that was the year that Rinne was hurt though, right?

 

That Forsberg trade is exactly the kind of smart move that good teams make to build to incrementally improve.

But they fleeced a dumb GM. Usually those trade will cost you capital in return. It's not as if the tank doesn't give you plenty of ammo to trade. We just made the wrong trades

[Brawndo]

Also with Nashville Ryan Johansen was a 4th Overall Pick and Kyle Turris was a 3rd Overall Pick. Granted they traded for both, however they are Top 5 Talent in their draft years.

[Randall Flagg]

Are there stats to back this up, or is it the Isles Fans rationalizing the impending Tavares Divorce?

There might be, I'm not looking them up though. 

 

They watch them both 82 times this season and have said that Tavares has been downright bad since December, checked out, not really trying, and that Barzal is the most electric and dangerous player on the roster

[nfreeman]

Joe Thornton was drafted 1st overall

Marleau was drafted 2nd overall

 

Nashville hit consistently on later round picks; Arvidsson, Weber, Josi, etc. If you have a GM/AGM combo that has been together for decades and can pull that off, congrats. Or, if you have a GM in Washington willing to trade away a perennial 30g scorer, or one in Boston willing to trade away a Thronton, good for you. Those trades are out of your control, tanking isn't. 

But they fleeced a dumb GM. Usually those trade will cost you capital in return. It's not as if the tank doesn't give you plenty of ammo to trade. We just made the wrong trades

 

Marleau was drafted in 1997.

 

Thornton was a trade acquisition, as you pointed out. 

 

The point is that good to elite players pop loose regularly on the trade market, and well-run teams will pick them up if it makes sense to do so. 

[WildCard]

Also with Nashville Ryan Johansen was a 4th Overall Pick and Kyle Turris was a 3rd Overall Pick. Granted they traded for both, however they are Top 5 Talent in their draft years.

Good point. And They got Johansen with the 3rd overall pick, Seth Jones

[nfreeman]

Also with Nashville Ryan Johansen was a 4th Overall Pick and Kyle Turris was a 3rd Overall Pick. Granted they traded for both, however they are Top 5 Talent in their draft years.

 

Right but Nashville didn't have to tank to get them.  That is my point as stated above.

[WildCard]

Marleau was drafted in 1997.

 

Thornton was a trade acquisition, as you pointed out. 

 

The point is that good to elite players pop loose regularly on the trade market, and well-run teams will pick them up if it makes sense to do so. 

They were both key parts of a SC run.

 

Good elite players pop loose regularly? Since when? Outside of Boston/Chiarelli routinely trading away a top 2 pick, when do franchise players leave the team that drafted them? Karlsson? Rick Nash?

[Randall Flagg]

Right but Nashville didn't have to tank to get them.  That is my point as stated above.

Yeah, comparing Nashville's situation in 2013 and the preceding and ensuing seasons to Buffalo in 13-14, 14-15, through now is as apple-oranges as you can get 

 

That's also the kind of bad that 

a.) wouldn't infuriate me

b.) severely hamper our chances of competing anytime soon

[WildCard]

Right but Nashville didn't have to tank to get them.  That is my point as stated above.

Seth Jones

[dudacek]

I think that was the year that Rinne was hurt though, right?

 

That Forsberg trade is exactly the kind of fortunate move that lucky teams make to build to dramatically set the stage for sustained excellence.

Fixed it for you.

 

Kinda like drafting Patrice Bergeron in the second and Brad Marchand in the third while trading away Tyler Seguin and Joe Thornton for peanuts or trading Christian Ruutuu for Dominik Hasek and thinking you still needed to sell the farm to acquire Grant Fuhr.

 

It’s not all smarts.

Edited March 29, 2018 by dudacek

[nfreeman]

They were both key parts of a SC run.

 

Good elite players pop loose regularly? Since when? Outside of Boston/Chiarelli routinely trading away a top 2 pick, when do franchise players leave the team that drafted them? Karlsson? Rick Nash?

 

Recently:

 

PK Subban (and Shea Weber, for that matter, although YMMV on including him).

Taylor Hall

Ryan Johanssen

Phil Kessel

Tyler Seguin

 

 

Down a level but still quite good:

 

Matt Duchene

Dougie Hamilton

Evander Kane

Filip Forsberg

Ryan Callahan

Milan Lucic

Kyle Turris

Eric Johnson

Kevin Shattenkirk

Keith Yandle

 

 

Seth Jones

 

Again -- they didn't tank to get him.  Nashville fell apart for one year when Rinne got hurt.

 

 

Fixed it for you.

 

Kinda like drafting Patrice Bergeron in the second and Brad Marchand in the third while trading away Tyler Seguin and Joe Thornton for peanuts or trading Christian Ruutuu for Dominik Hasek and thinking you still needed to sell the farm to acquire Grant Fuhr.

 

It’s not all smarts.

 

Yes -- luck is needed too.  But hoping for a miraculous Crosby-Malkin or Toews-Kane-Keith lucky stretch isn't a plan.

[WildCard]

Recently:

 

PK Subban (and Shea Weber, for that matter, although YMMV on including him).

Taylor Hall

Ryan Johanssen

Phil Kessel

Tyler Seguin

 

 

Down a level but still quite good:

 

Matt Duchene

Dougie Hamilton

Evander Kane

Filip Forsberg

Ryan Callahan

Milan Lucic

Kyle Turris

Eric Johnson

Kevin Shattenkirk

Keith Yandle

 

Again -- they didn't tank to get him.  Nashville fell apart for one year when Rinne got hurt.

 

Yes -- luck is needed too.  But hoping for a miraculous Crosby-Malkin or Toews-Kane-Keith lucky stretch isn't a plan.

Phil Kessel couldn't carry his own team, we've already seen this in Toronto. Pk Subban can't carry his own team, we've seen this in Montreal. Seguin probably can carry his own team; he was also the #2 overall pick

 

I know they didn't tank to get him. They got lucky one year, like you said, to draft high enough to select him. Tanking, or at least at the time we did it, takes that luck away.

 

Miraculous? Those players you listed were top picks. Nashville is a team built on miracles with late round picks that actually hit. Detroit built a dynasty of miracles

[Brawndo]

Right but Nashville didn't have to tank to get them. That is my point as stated above.

Nashville is the exception to the norm. Poille has been in place for 18 years and his drafting is second to none in the NHL. Look at Atlantic Tampa and Toronto spend a lot of time picking in the Top 5, they got the right management in place and they are Cup Contenders.

 

Then there is the element of luck in the Lottery. The future of most teams comes down to a Saturday Night at the end of April. See Winnipeg, Philadelphia, New Jersey, Edmonton and Toronto. (Although the latter tanked)

[nfreeman]

Phil Kessel couldn't carry his own team, we've already seen this in Toronto. Pk Subban can't carry his own team, we've seen this in Montreal. Seguin probably can carry his own team; he was also the #2 overall pick

 

I know they didn't tank to get him. They got lucky one year, like you said, to draft high enough to select him. Tanking, or at least at the time we did it, takes that luck away.

 

Miraculous? Those players you listed were top picks. Nashville is a team built on miracles with late round picks that actually hit. Detroit built a dynasty of miracles

 

Well, by that logic, McD isn't elite either since Edmonton is in the crapper again this year.

 

The players I listed in the 1st category may not be as good as Crosby, but all are great players who all popped loose onto the trade market within the past few years.

 

The point is that you don't need to tank to land a player who was drafted high.  You can often trade for them (or, less often, find them in FA -- e.g. Tavares).

 

Do you not think it was hugely lucky of Pittsburgh to win the Crosby lottery -- following a lockout year -- when they had just won Malkin and Fleury?  Do you think it is logical to plan on replicating that success?  If so, do you think Reino and Eichel are comparable to Malkin and Crosby?

[WildCard]

Well, by that logic, McD isn't elite either since Edmonton is in the crapper again this year.

 

The players I listed in the 1st category may not be as good as Crosby, but all are great players who all popped loose onto the trade market within the past few years.

 

The point is that you don't need to tank to land a player who was drafted high.  You can often trade for them (or, less often, find them in FA -- e.g. Tavares).

 

Do you not think it was hugely lucky of Pittsburgh to win the Crosby lottery -- following a lockout year -- when they had just won Malkin and Fleury?  Do you think it is logical to plan on replicating that success?  If so, do you think Reino and Eichel are comparable to Malkin and Crosby?

McDavid has proven he can carry his team in the playoffs. Pretty sure Kessel never did that

 

No, you don't need to tank to land a player that was drafted high. Again though, I never said that. What I've been saying for two pages is that tanking gives you the best opportunity to do so; either be having the assets to trade for one, or by directly selecting them yourself

 

Do I think it was hugely lucky the Penguins made a conscience effort to get to the top of the draft and selected good players? No, I don't. I'm not going to compare the 3rd/4th greatest European player ever and possibly the best player ever to Reinhart and Eichel, no. I will compare them to Toews and Kane however

[Marions Piazza]

I think that was the year that Rinne was hurt though, right?

 

That Forsberg trade is exactly the kind of smart move that good teams make to build to incrementally improve.

You also need the GM on that side to be willing to make such a bad trade

[Sabres Fan in NS]

In the last 10 years the Stanley Cup winners and finalists (if I recall correctly) did not tank to get the that promised land.

 

They were all built by more traditional methods.  The Penguins did not tank to land Crosby, Malkin or Fleury.  The Hawks did not tank to draft their 3 big guys.  Bruins and LA? Nope.

 

The tank was an illusion and a spell was cast on TP.  Worst decision in the 50 (some odd) year history of the Buffalo Sabres.

 

I can somewhat by that back in the '80s the Penguins tanked (in as minor a fashion as possible, as they were a very bad team) to land Super Mario.  It was another 7 (I think) years until they won their first cup after drafting very well and making the trade of the century in robbing Hartford of the 2 players that pushed them over the hump in 1991.

[nfreeman]

McDavid has proven he can carry his team in the playoffs. Pretty sure Kessel never did that

 

No, you don't need to tank to land a player that was drafted high. Again though, I never said that. What I've been saying for two pages is that tanking gives you the best opportunity to do so; either be having the assets to trade for one, or by directly selecting them yourself

 

Do I think it was hugely lucky the Penguins made a conscience effort to get to the top of the draft and selected good players? No, I don't. I'm not going to compare the 3rd/4th greatest European player ever and possibly the best player ever to Reinhart and Eichel, no. I will compare them to Toews and Kane however

 

Pittsburgh didn't tank to get Crosby.  They won a lottery following a year in which the NHL did not play.

 

And I love the optimism, but comparing Reino to Toews is insane.

[Robviously]

You also need the GM on that side to be willing to make such a bad trade

Unfortunately, that GM was on our side the last 3 years...

[Weave]

In the last 10 years the Stanley Cup winners and finalists (if I recall correctly) did not tank to get the that promised land.

 

They were all built by more traditional methods.  The Penguins did not tank to land Crosby, Malkin or Fleury.  The Hawks did not tank to draft their 3 big guys.  Bruins and LA? Nope.

 

The tank was an illusion and a spell was cast on TP.  Worst decision in the 50 (some odd) year history of the Buffalo Sabres.

 

I can somewhat by that back in the '80s the Penguins tanked (in as minor a fashion as possible, as they were a very bad team) to land Super Mario.  It was another 7 (I think) years until they won their first cup after drafting very well and making the trade of the century in robbing Hartford of the 2 players that pushed them over the hump in 1991.

 

Pittsburgh did tank for Mario and it is well documented.  The rest is correct.

[WildCard]

Pittsburgh didn't tank to get Crosby.  They won a lottery following a year in which the NHL did not play.

 

And I love the optimism, but comparing Reino to Toews is insane.

I have a hard time believing that if they were that bad to get those 3 for that long, that their roster was any less worse than the scorched earth one we did for a tank

[GASabresIUFAN]

Pittsburgh did tank for Mario and it is well documented.  The rest is correct.

They drafted over a 5 year period 5th, 1st, 2nd, 1st and 2nd, getting Whitney, Fleury, Malkin, Crosby and Staal.  This was a tank pure and simple.

By comparison the Sabres have drafted 8th, 2nd. 2nd, 8th and 8th.  Not exactly the same thing.

[WildCard]

In the last 10 years the Stanley Cup winners and finalists (if I recall correctly) did not tank to get the that promised land.

 

They were all built by more traditional methods.  The Penguins did not tank to land Crosby, Malkin or Fleury.  The Hawks did not tank to draft their 3 big guys.  Bruins and LA? Nope.

 

The tank was an illusion and a spell was cast on TP.  Worst decision in the 50 (some odd) year history of the Buffalo Sabres.

 

I can somewhat by that back in the '80s the Penguins tanked (in as minor a fashion as possible, as they were a very bad team) to land Super Mario.  It was another 7 (I think) years until they won their first cup after drafting very well and making the trade of the century in robbing Hartford of the 2 players that pushed them over the hump in 1991.

So those teams were just really really bad and it allowed them to get elite level talent. The only difference being they were bad on accident and we were bad on purpose. Not sure how being bad through incompetence is any better than at least formulating a plan to reap the benefits you've seen gifted to someone else through that incompetence.