Sabres Trying to Avoid Snap Decision with Reinhart

[LGR4GM]

I'd say you're probably right. I don't know what that has to do with this discussion though

Why aren't we being as critical of ROR or Okposo? I say we give all three another 7 games and see where we are. 

 

It has a ton to do with this discussion because if we argue that ROR and Okposo are not as good as Sam Reinhart then we should be making a decision about those guys, clearing their salary and moving on. Reinhart is younger, cheaper, and now maybe better? Just thinking of building a team and how we still lack hard working talent apparently.

Edited October 19, 2017 by LGR4GM

[GASabresIUFAN]

ROR is a necessity to the team at this point.  He is our best two way forward and our best FO guy, and we can't replace him.  Unfortunately for the Sabres, to justfiy what he is getting paid he needs to score and stay healthy.   

 

KO was signed by TM because TM thought the team was about to turn the corner and needed one more solid winger.  TM just didn't recognize the flaws in his roster and coaching until it was to late.  Granted the roster flaws were completely self inflicated.  The question facing Jbot is whether KO is part of the solution or should be traded (assuming he comes around) because he won't still be at his peek when the Sabres finally become competitive again.   

 

As to Sam, I think if used correctly, he is a potential 60 pt player for the Sabres and soon.  I think he'll continue to be streaky, but his play in front of the net and passing skills are nearly un-matched on the Sabres.  It's up to the coaching staff to find his highest and best use and to keep him there.  I wanted to see him at center like everyone else, but our top 6 is so much more effective with him in it.  I'd argue in favor of a Kane ROR Sam line

Edited October 19, 2017 by GASabresFan

[WildCard]

Why aren't we being as critical of ROR or Okposo? I say we give all three another 7 games and see where we are. 

 

It has a ton to do with this discussion because if we argue that ROR and Okposo are not as good as Sam Reinhart then we should be making a decision about those guys, clearing their salary and moving on. Reinhart is younger, cheaper, and now maybe better? Just thinking of building a team and how we still lack hard working talent apparently.

Exactly. I said in my previous post that he is worth more. And that, if younger guys pan out, then he is the best option to trade for worth and replacement factor. 

[dudacek]

Is there anyone left out there who thinks that the core of a good Sabres team has already been mostly acquired?

Not developed or properly tweaked or even signed, necessarily, but acquired.

[3putt]

Is there anyone left out there who thinks that the core of a good Sabres team has already been mostly acquired?

Not developed or properly tweaked or even signed, necessarily, but acquired.

Not sure I understand your question. I think some of the presumed core are expendable. New sheriff and all.

[dudacek]

I guess it goes back to Darcy's misplaced faith in his rotten core of Vanek and Miller etc, and the calls for some already to blow up Murray's team.

 

Can a team still be built around Eichel O'Reilly Reinhart, Ristolainen, Kane, Mittlestadt and Nylander that can contend and contend soon?

[SwampD]

I guess it goes back to Darcy's misplaced faith in his rotten core of Vanek and Miller etc, and the calls for some already to blow up Murray's team.

Can a team still be built around Eichel O'Reilly Reinhart, Ristolainen, Kane, Mittlestadt and Nylander that can contend and contend soon?

Absolutely.

Need more D, but yes.

[3putt]

I guess it goes back to Darcy's misplaced faith in his rotten core of Vanek and Miller etc, and the calls for some already to blow up Murray's team.

Can a team still be built around Eichel O'Reilly Reinhart, Ristolainen, Kane, Mittlestadt and Nylander that can contend and contend soon?

I notice Okposo and his 6.5mm is missing from your core. Where did it go? And I don’t know if Risto is part of the club either.

[dudacek]

I notice Okposo and his 6.5mm is missing from your core. Where did it go? And I don’t know if Risto is part of the club either.

I left him because of his age, but you're right.

Given his contract, KO is definitely part of the core.

[3putt]

I think there is too much contract up front. Need more on the back end and don’t see a GT or #1 d.

[dudacek]

I think there is too much contract up front. Need more on the back end and don’t see a GT or #1 d.

People keep telling me the goalie is easy and the defenceman is impossible.

[Pokey Jones]

 

Can a team still be built around Eichel O'Reilly Reinhart, Ristolainen, Kane, Mittlestadt and Nylander that can contend and contend soon?

Eichel yes, O'Reilly no, Reinhart no, Risto maybe, Kane unlikely, Mittlestadt who knows, Nylander probably not. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

There is a very solid potential core of the following, with only ROR and maybe Scandella being acquired players.  Look at the ages (age at next Bday w date if soon)

 

Jack (21 - 10/28)

Sam (22 - 11/5)

Ristolainen (23 - 10/27)

Nylander (19)

Asplund (20 - 12/3)

Mittelstud (19 - 11/22)

ROR (26)

Girgensons (23)
Scandella (27)

McCabe (24)

Guhle (20)

Ullmark (24)

Pu (19)

Bailey (22)

 

Girgensons Eichel Nylander 

Mittelstadt ROR Reinhart

Bailey Asplund Pu

 

Scandella Guhle

McCabe Ristolainen

 

Ullmark

 

Why shouldn't we be able to get 6-8 years of real quality hockey from that group?  The success of this rebuild will ultimately hinge on the top players from the 2016 and 2017 draft classes.  Assuming they succeed, then all we need is a 3rd D pair, a backup goalie and depth forwards.  If guys like Baloo (24) or Antipin (24) work out and we get some surprises from later rd picks like Borgen or Hagel, almost the entire team will be home grown or cheaply acquired in the end.

Edited October 19, 2017 by GASabresFan

[North Buffalo]

There is a very solid potential core of the following, with only ROR and maybe Scandella being acquired players.  Look at the ages (age at next Bday w date if soon)

 

Jack (21 - 10/28)

Sam (22 - 11/5)

Ristolainen (23 - 10/27)

Nylander (19)

Asplund (20 - 12/3)

Mittelstud (19 - 11/22)

ROR (26)

Girgensons (23)

Scandella (27)

McCabe (24)

Guhle (20)

Ullmark (24)

Pu (19)

Bailey (22)

 

Girgensons Eichel Nylander 

Mittelstadt ROR Reinhart

Bailey Asplund Pu

 

Scandella Guhle

McCabe Ristolainen

 

Ullmark

 

Why shouldn't we be able to get 6-8 years of real quality hockey from that group?  The success of this rebuild will ultimately hinge on the top players from the 2016 and 2017 draft classes.  Assuming they succeed, then all we need is a 3rd D pair, a backup goalie and depth forwards.  If guys like Baloo (24) or Antipin (24) work out and we get some surprises from later rd picks like Borgen or Hagel, almost the entire team will be home grown or cheaply acquired in the end.

 

Yeh but everyone wants it now and understandably folks are tired of the crap show... Also gotta hope Ullmark comes thru or somehow they find a goalie wisperer to fix Lehner...

[3putt]

People keep telling me the goalie is easy and the defenceman is impossible.

I think they are inversely related.  A good number 1 d reduces the need for a vezina caliber gt.  A Vezina caliber gt allows you run marginal d against top qoc.  They both can be acquired but you need the cap space or luck out in the draft. Okposo ROR and Kane would limit your flexibility to do that.  Too much money tied up there.  You need to shed someone.

[Samson's Flow]

????

 

Sam's career % is 11.8.  His rookie season he was at 13.9 and last season he fell of to 9.6.  This year he is 2 for 10 or 20%.  

 

Last season the Sabres as a team shot 8% which was below the league's 9%.  Foligno was our leader at 13.4.  Jack lead is shots per game, but only hit on 9.6 (same as Sam).  Kane had a career high of 10.8.  

 

Bottomline:  This is not a sniping team.  We don't have the guys who score consistently in the 12+% area, which is something we desperately need.  Okposo and ROR are in the low to mid 10s for their career. 

 

By comparison guys like Kane (12.4) and Malkin (13.4) routinely snipe at 12% or better.  Their career % is in ( ).  For this team to succeed we are going to have to generate significantly more chances then we do.

Obviously star players will have higher shooting percentages.

 

I looked up the team shooting percentages for last year and every team fell between the mid 7% (Colorado) to 10.5% (Washington). Most teams were in the 9-8% range.

 

A snippet from https://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/team-shooting-percentage/2016/ here:

 

"League wide shooting percentage has changed over the seasons due to evolution in the game, which has become more defensively focused and led to lower overall scoring and thus lower shooting percentages. However, since the 2009-10 NHL season, the average team shooting percentage has been steady around the 9% level."

[nfreeman]

I guess it goes back to Darcy's misplaced faith in his rotten core of Vanek and Miller etc, and the calls for some already to blow up Murray's team.

 

Can a team still be built around Eichel O'Reilly Reinhart, Ristolainen, Kane, Mittlestadt and Nylander that can contend and contend soon?

 

We don't know yet, but will know by the end of this season for everyone except Casey.

[Samson's Flow]

Yeh but everyone wants it now and understandably folks are tired of the crap show... Also gotta hope Ullmark comes thru or somehow they find a goalie wisperer to fix Lehner...

But all of our best players, i.e. the ones we are relying on, are all still 21/22/23. If we were already dominant now while relying on extremely young players, then we would have a long term dynasty in the making. Perspective on the true "core" guys of Jack, Sam, ROR, Risto are all young to very young. 

[Crusader1969]

There is a very solid potential core of the following, with only ROR and maybe Scandella being acquired players.  Look at the ages (age at next Bday w date if soon)

 

Jack (21 - 10/28)

Sam (22 - 11/5)

Ristolainen (23 - 10/27)

Nylander (19)

Asplund (20 - 12/3)

Mittelstud (19 - 11/22)

ROR (26)

Girgensons (23)

Scandella (27)

McCabe (24)

Guhle (20)

Ullmark (24)

Pu (19)

Bailey (22)

 

Girgensons Eichel Nylander 

Mittelstadt ROR Reinhart

Bailey Asplund Pu

 

Scandella Guhle

McCabe Ristolainen

 

Ullmark

 

Why shouldn't we be able to get 6-8 years of real quality hockey from that group?  The success of this rebuild will ultimately hinge on the top players from the 2016 and 2017 draft classes.  Assuming they succeed, then all we need is a 3rd D pair, a backup goalie and depth forwards.  If guys like Baloo (24) or Antipin (24) work out and we get some surprises from later rd picks like Borgen or Hagel, almost the entire team will be home grown or cheaply acquired in the end.

 

i still think you can add Baptiste to the list of long term core. Plus the guy you draft in 2018, as its probably going to be a lottery pick. But your point is right on the mark, the corner will be turned relatively soon for this group.

[nucci]

With contracts coming up, isn't the question Reinhart or Kane? Can't sign both, correct?

[LGR4GM]

With contracts coming up, isn't the question Reinhart or Kane? Can't sign both, correct?

if you trade Moulson  you might be able to

[dudacek]

Based on his career play to date, Sam Reinhart is in line for a $2.5- to 4-million bridge contract.

Assuming Evander wants to be here, it should be no problem signing both unless Sam somehow blows up for 60 points this year.

 

As many have pointed out, Moulson has a cap hit of $5 million but a salary of only $2 million next year, the last year of his deal.

He should be relatively easy to dump on a budget team looking to get to the floor next summer if we need that, especially if we add a sweetener to the deal.

It should be noted Murray smartly constructed his deal for exactly this purpose.

Edited October 19, 2017 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

Here are the numbers.

 

Forwards (7) 37.2 mill - Jack, ROR, KO, Pommers, Z, Larsson and MOULSON - sending Moulson to the AHL saves only about $1 mill.

Defense (6) 19.2 - Risto, Scandella, Baloo, Bogo, McCabe and Tennyson -

Goal (1) 750K - Ullmark

 

14 players - 57.15 - with 2 players we need to part with somehow (Moulson and Bogo).

That means 8-9 players for 19 mill.

 

I think we can only afford 2 of Reinhart, Kane and Lehner. That said buying out Bogo saves 4 mill each of the next two seasons.

The math gets much easier if Guhle and Nylander can make the jump to the NHL. They’d cost only 1.6 for both.

 

If we banish Moulson and buyout Bogo, we’d be at 52.15 for 12 players. Add in Bailey 650k plus Guhle and Nylander and you’re at 15 players for 54.4, with 8 forwards, 6 D and a G. I agree on a bridge deal for Sam, say 2 for 8 or 3 for 13. That would being us to 58-59 for 16 players. That leaves substantial money for mostly depth players. We could afford to keep Kane, but I’m not sure he is a long-term core piece. If you sign him you are committing to him as part of the core.

 

At this point, I’d re-sign Johnson, even at 2.5, for another season as Ullmarks’ 30 game backup. This brings us to 61.5 max with 17 players and looking for 1 D, 4 F with 15 mill to spend.

[nfreeman]

if you trade Moulson  you might be able to

Based on his career play to date, Sam Reinhart is in line for a $2.5- to 4-million bridge contract.

Assuming Evander wants to be here, it should be no problem signing both unless Sam somehow blows up for 60 points this year.

 

As many have pointed out, Moulson has a cap hit of $5 million but a salary of only $2 million next year, the last year of his deal.

He should be relatively easy to dump on a budget team looking to get to the floor next summer if we need that, especially if we add a sweetener to the deal.

It should be noted Murray smartly constructed his deal for exactly this purpose.

 

No one is trading for Moulson unless the sweetener is pretty GD sweet -- i.e. at least a 2nd-rounder (or unless the Sabres take back a bad contract in return -- but that defeats the purpose).

[7+6=13]

Does Sam's pending free agency play into this?  I think it's less about Sam vs what we have or what's coming.  Talks like this has to be about do we want to pay him 5+ mil/year.  I think they'd be happy to on a bridge deal but does Sam settle for that?