Steven Stamkos stays in Tampa Bay, 8.5mil x 8yrs

[WildCard]

I'll give you the semantics so you'll give me that we all agree it's been Stankos two worst years. Again, the question is if it's a trend or not.

That stat doesn't include this past year. 

[tom webster]

That stat doesn't include this past year.

Yeah, you are right. Without questioning the possession numbers, their production is similar while Kane is admittedly ahead. I would call it close.

It's been fun debating with you and True but I think it's time to move on till this because mes a real question.

[pi2000]

Honestly, you could at least read my posts.

 

Hall was brought up on players that would excite me, then subsequently compared to Stamko. I've already stated he costs too much, and I would look elsewhere.

 

 

You can look "elsewhere" for a 26 year old 300 goal scorer?   Where is this "elsewhere" you're dreaming of?  

[WildCard]

You can look "elsewhere" for a 26 year old 300 goal scorer?   Where is this "elsewhere" you're dreaming of?  

Well, that sentence refers to Hall, because of what the Oilers would want.

 

As for Stamkos, two things apply there. A) I don't think he's what we need and B) I don't think he's worth the money he wants

[pi2000]

Well, that sentence refers to Hall, because of what the Oilers would want.

 

As for Stamkos, two things apply there. A) I don't think he's what we need and B) I don't think he's worth the money he wants

 

You mean this Taylor Hall?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/taylor-hall-is-un-coachable--will-be-on-trade-block--report-000824459.html

 

Darren Dreger...

 

"It’s not one player. It’s the collection of players that make up the sagging work ethic and lack of culture. But if you had to put a face on it, or a name to it, that name would be Taylor Hall...... Taylor Hall has a pretty specific vision on how he sees he needs to play and maybe how he thinks the team should play, and he really isn’t open to change, and that’s a problem."

 

Yeah, no thanks.... I'll take the 300 goal scoring 26 year old captain who's been to a Cup finals.  

Edited March 22, 2016 by pi2000

[WildCard]

You mean this Taylor Hall?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/taylor-hall-is-un-coachable--will-be-on-trade-block--report-000824459.html

 

former head coach Dallas Eakins after being relieved of his duties...

 

"It’s not one player. It’s the collection of players that make up the sagging work ethic and lack of culture. But if you had to put a face on it, or a name to it, that name would be Taylor Hall...... Taylor Hall has a pretty specific vision on how he sees he needs to play and maybe how he thinks the team should play, and he really isn’t open to change, and that’s a problem."

 

Yeah, no thanks.... I'll take the 300 goal scoring 26 year old captain who's been to a Cup finals.  

Yeah, Dallas Eakins, who did so well in Edmonton. He couldn't possibly have been the problem there. He doesn't name Hall as lazy, just that Hall refuses to change to Eakins system. If your boss is a moron, and you continue to work as you always have, which is among the most efficient in your field, why would you change?

 

 

I read that whole article, and I'll laugh my ass off if the kick Hall off for being the apparent 'cancer' so to speak that has caused the demise of the Oiler's culture, and therefore on ice product. To blame Hall for the woes that trouble the Oilers is absurd. 

Overall, Hall creates 7.1 scoring chances per 20 minutes played at even strength, the ninth-best mark in the league, sandwiched between Evgeni Malkin and Pavel Datsyuk. That statistic is even more incredible when you consider that the Oilers’ forwards on average create just 4.2 scoring chances per 20 minutes, the fifth-worst mark in the league. That means Hall is doing a lot of the work on his own.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/why-taylor-hall-is-one-of-the-best-players-in-the-nhl/

 

Such ######, ###### work ethic. So bad it makes you think that, if he did ride his team's coat tails into a Cup Final, that he might be demoted into, I don't know, a lower line, with a decrease in toi, and in a different position....

Edited March 22, 2016 by WildCard

[nucci]

I still thinks it's fair to heap that on Stamkos, given his captaincy and money demands. I'm not sure Hall will be in a position to barter for Stamkos money. Stamkos wants that money because he knows teams are desperate for a center, and all he has to do is point to his goal production and smile. Someone will bite on that. Hall is superior in everything else, but he has injuries, hasn't had the team success Stamkos has had, doesn't score goals like Stamkos, and is not a center. Hall will likely fetch a nice ROR contract of around $7.5-8m. He's also locked up until 2021 at $6m per, which is ###### insane for Edmonton to get away with

 

Kane is superior to Stamkos in 5v5 numbers. During 2012-2015, 5v5, we have 48g(12th) - 56a(36th) - 104pts(12th).

 

I can readily say neither are defensive all stars

Where is this captaincy demand I keep reading about?

[TrueBlueGED]

I question the hockey acumen of anyone who tells me you can't win with Taylor Hall. 

[WildCard]

Where is this captaincy demand I keep reading about?

That's not referring to his captaincy demands, but his current role as a captain. Again, I don't think he demands to be captain in a unique situation, but I don't think he'd love parting with it, and I really don't think that, even if he's not captain, that he won't be the 'A', and likely really just a co-captain in the locker room

[nucci]

That's not referring to his captaincy demands, but his current role as a captain. Again, I don't think he demands to be captain in a unique situation, but I don't think he'd love parting with it, and I really don't think that, even if he's not captain, that he won't be the 'A', and likely really just a co-captain in the locker room

ahhh, ok

[Beer]

I question the hockey acumen of anyone who tells me you can't win with Taylor Hall. 

 

Agree, sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

Hell of a debate going on in this thread.  My 2-cents.  If we go after Stammer (which I'd take in a heartbeat for the right price and term), it cannot handcuff us in 3-4 years when Jack, Sam and Risto are hitting their stride and we need to add quality veteran's for the playoff push.  It's as simple as that in my mind.  Also, I think Stamkos will put opportunities to win the Stanley Cup above being captain and playing center.  At this point in his career it's about making $$$ and winning Lord Stanley. 

[JJFIVEOH]

Agree, sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

Hell of a debate going on in this thread.  My 2-cents.  If we go after Stammer (which I'd take in a heartbeat for the right price and term), it cannot handcuff us in 3-4 years when Jack, Sam and Risto are hitting their stride and we need to add quality veteran's for the playoff push.  It's as simple as that in my mind.  Also, I think Stamkos will put opportunities to win the Stanley Cup above being captain and playing center.  At this point in his career it's about making $$$ and winning Lord Stanley. 

 

And that right there is my biggest concern. I've seen way to many GM's make ridiculous deals for UFA's only to be regretting the decision down the road. More often than not, it doesn't work out in the team's favor. 

[pi2000]

Yeah, Dallas Eakins, who did so well in Edmonton. He couldn't possibly have been the problem there. He doesn't name Hall as lazy, just that Hall refuses to change to Eakins system. If your boss is a moron, and you continue to work as you always have, which is among the most efficient in your field, why would you change?

 

 

I read that whole article, and I'll laugh my ass off if the kick Hall off for being the apparent 'cancer' so to speak that has caused the demise of the Oiler's culture, and therefore on ice product. To blame Hall for the woes that trouble the Oilers is absurd. 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/why-taylor-hall-is-one-of-the-best-players-in-the-nhl/

 

Such ######, ###### work ethic. So bad it makes you think that, if he did ride his team's coat tails into a Cup Final, that he might be demoted into, I don't know, a lower line, with a decrease in toi, and in a different position....

 

I'll take the 26 year old 300 goal scorer without the baggage.   

 

I question the hockey acumen of anyone who tells me you can't win with Taylor Hall. 

 

If you're looking at him to be a leader, a captain, then yes I would say you cannot win with him leading your team (history has proven that).     Put him in the right situation and he can be successful.   

And that right there is my biggest concern. I've seen way to many GM's make ridiculous deals for UFA's only to be regretting the decision down the road. More often than not, it doesn't work out in the team's favor. 

 

It depends on the situation.   Hossa signed a 12 year deal with the Hawks back in 2009 and has been a big contributor.    

 

Stamkos will be one of the top 3 UFA's of all time, if not number 1.     If somebody like Toronto signs him, I think it's a bad move because they're still too early in the rebuild.    Buffalo is right in the sweet spot, they have their studs (and will get another this draft), so it's an upward trajectory from here.    Adding 30g/yr to the lineup for at least the next 5-6 years is a no-brainer... could be the difference between being a legit contender in 2-3 years, or another very good team with a missing piece.

[JJFIVEOH]

 

 

Stamkos will be one of the top 3 UFA's of all time, if not number 1.     If somebody like Toronto signs him, I think it's a bad move because they're still too early in the rebuild.    Buffalo is right in the sweet spot, they have their studs (and will get another this draft), so it's an upward trajectory from here.    Adding 30g/yr to the lineup for at least the next 5-6 years is a no-brainer... could be the difference between being a legit contender in 2-3 years, or another very good team with a missing piece.

 

Good points, and I agree. If it's a manageable contract. Hossa's cap hit is very manageable. Hossa was brought in as a complementary piece for their two studs. The Sabres have their two studs. I'm all for bringing in Stamkos as a complementary piece, not to replace one of our two studs. The question is, is Stamkos willing to accept that. 

[WildCard]

I'll take the 26 year old 300 goal scorer without the baggage.   

Again, I see no baggage, other than a disgruntled coach who was interviewed right after he got fired

[...]

WildCard, on 22 Mar 2016 - 1:17 PM, said:

That's not referring to his captaincy demands, but his current role as a captain. Again, I don't think he demands to be captain in a unique situation, but I don't think he'd love parting with it, and I really don't think that, even if he's not captain, that he won't be the 'A', and likely really just a co-captain in the locker room

 

To be fair, he might welcome less responsibility and being in the spotlight less.  Maybe that is what is causing the downturn in his numbers, aside from the leg.  One could argue that he can focus more on re-acquiring his elite game if he doesn't have the pressure of being a team leader.

[WildCard]

To be fair, he might welcome less responsibility and being in the spotlight less.  Maybe that is what is causing the downturn in his numbers, aside from the leg.  One could argue that he can focus more on re-acquiring his elite game if he doesn't have the pressure of being a team leader.

A good point in that he might welcome less spotlight, but I really don't think his decline is related to the pressure he faces

[MattPie]

This thread is going to be awesome to revisit when he signs with Columbus.

[pi2000]

Again, I see no baggage, other than a disgruntled coach who was interviewed right after he got fired

 

To be fair, I mis-quoted... that was Darren Dreger who threw Hall under the bus, not Eakins.    That said, Dreger is very close with Eakins, so it's somewhat reliable intel IMO.    

 

Put Hall on veteran team like ANA or LA and he'd be fantastic, but on the Sabres?   I don't like it.    

[WildCard]

To be fair, I mis-quoted... that was Darren Dreger who threw Hall under the bus, not Eakins.    That said, Dreger is very close with Eakins, so it's somewhat reliable intel IMO.    

 

Put Hall on veteran team like ANA or LA and he'd be fantastic, but on the Sabres?   I don't like it.    

I'm curious, why do you think that?

[Thorny]

 

I can't find any research on it. Like I said, the stat isn't enormous, but I don't know of another way to quantify Stamkos' playmaking ability 

 

Kane pts/60 = 2.30, Stamkos pts/60 = 2.28. 

 

 

So yeah, they're similar, but in an argument on semantics, I want my .2  :lol:  :lol:

 

And that's just points. I'd bet my left foot Kane is better in possession and opportunities during that time period, 5v5, too

 

 

I wasn't taking issue with your statement that Hall was a better playmaker, or the comparisons to Kane and what not. I was merely pointing out that Stamkos does get a fair amount of assists, and primary assists, and that your earlier statement to the affect of "he doesn't get assists, he doesn't get primary assists, he can only score goals" was a little unfair to him. He can pass and be a playmaker and get assists, but his biggest strength will always be goal scoring. And that's what we need most, anyways.

[Thorny]

I'll see if I can find it.....

 

A guy who's only talent is scoring goals. Stamkos does not produce assists, especially primary assists; does not play defensively minded, or even that well in his own end; is set up more than he generates, which is concerning as a center. 

 

^ That was the post. Just didn't think it was fair to Stamkos.

 

Anyways, you have done a great job overall of expressing your side of the debate. Great thread, here.

[dudacek]

What I still haven't had answered is why this argument is putting so much emphasis on primary assists and so little on goals.

 

It makes it sound like Stamkos is just sitting peacefully off the side of the crease while Ryan Callahan is skating through the entire team and feeding him saucers to tap in.

 

I don't buy the argument that assists is the measure of generating offence. There is never an assist without a goal.

[JJFIVEOH]

This thread is going to be awesome to revisit when he signs with Columbus.

 

 

At this point he'd probably have more luck with Buffalo's Foligno than Columbus' Foligno. 

[Thorny]

What I still haven't had answered is why this argument is putting so much emphasis on primary assists and so little on goals.

 

It makes it sound like Stamkos is just sitting peacefully off the side of the crease while Ryan Callahan is skating through the entire team and feeding him saucers to tap in.

 

I don't buy the argument that assists is the measure of generating offence. There is never an assist without a goal.

 

Right. People will express disappointment with a player if he's not putting the puck in the net (ROR, currently) or scoring goals but not "generating" them by tallying assists, but it really just comes down to "points" here. If a guy is either scoring the goal or helping setting it up with an assist, they are factoring in to the creation of said goal.

 

What it comes down to is team need. If you have a lot of guys that lean towards the set-up side of goal creation, it would be a good idea to supplement that with guys who can take care of the other component. From that perspective, Stamkos would fit in here well.