Steven Stamkos stays in Tampa Bay, 8.5mil x 8yrs

[JJFIVEOH]

In a vacuum I would too. This isn't a vacuum.

Hall is not the reason his team sucks, but you can't deny he sure hasn't done much to make it better.

Stamkos was scoring buckets long before Hedman (who is great) and Bishop (who is average) emerged.

I truly think Stamkos chooses a destination that offers the best combination of allowing him to succeed on the ice while meeting most of his goals off the ice.

 

I agree with this statement.

I also think you are confusing Steve Stamkos with Alexander Semin.

 

This is the first Stamkos scouting report I found. Seems to match the player I've seen:

Skates very well, has awesome hand/eye coordination and can score in a variety of ways. His one-timer when parked high in the slot is deadly. Displays solid playmaking and two-way upside. Plays with enough grit and aggression to keep opponents honest. Flaws: Needs more polish in the face-off circle, as well as continue to up his defensive-zone coverage (which isn't bad at all). He's a shooter first and foremost, but could still improve his passing skills a tad to maximize production. Also needs to limit his scoring slumps.

 

It ended by calling him elite.

 

Look, I don't even love Stamkos, I just like addressing flawed arguments.

I need to take a break.

Webster etc. Please feel free to carry the flag for a while.

 

Fair points, not sure why you need to take this so damn personally. 

 

These are opinions, mine are no more important than yours. But there's something that needs to be cleared up. No where have I said Stamkos isn't a talented goal scorer. No where have I said he doesn't have elite talent is his positioning, speed and skills. You're telling me things I already know, there's no need to prove to me how elite of a goal scorer he really is. 

 

Here is where base my claim that he is one dimensional. He is not a vocal leader, he is not a hitter, he is not an intimidator, he is not a full time penalty killer, he is not a defender, he is no where near the top in 5v5 stats and he is (granted a small sample size) not known for stepping up in the playoffs. And I have provided stats, as have others, that shows how average he is 5v5. 

 

A player that deserves an elite contract excels in more than one of those dimensions. 

 

Sorry it seems like such a chore for you to respond to me, don't take this so damn seriously. you might actually enjoy it a little bit if you didn't.  ;)

[dudacek]

Fair points, not sure why you need to take this so damn personally. 

 

Sorry it seems like such a chore for you to respond to me, don't take this ###### so damn seriously. you might actually enjoy it a little bit if you didn't.  ;)

 

:lol: You're reading me totally wrong here.

My issue is I am enjoying it too much. I'm trying to say I have to step away and get some real work done.

And here I am posting again. :blush:

[JJFIVEOH]

[tom webster]

Fair points, not sure why you need to take this so damn personally.

 

These are opinions, mine are no more important than yours. But there's something that needs to be cleared up. No where have I said Stamkos isn't a talented goal scorer. No where have I said he doesn't have elite talent is his positioning, speed and skills. You're telling me things I already know, there's no need to prove to me how elite of a goal scorer he really is.

 

Here is where base my claim that he is one dimensional. He is not a vocal leader, he is not a hitter, he is not an intimidator, he is not a full time penalty killer, he is not a defender, he is no where near the top in 5v5 stats and he is (granted a small sample size) not known for stepping up in the playoffs. And I have provided stats, as have others, that shows how average he is 5v5.

 

A player that deserves an elite contract excels in more than one of those dimensions.

 

Sorry it seems like such a chore for you to respond to me, don't take this ###### so damn seriously. you might actually enjoy it a little bit if you didn't. ;)

Prior to this year, Patrick Kane and Stankos were nearly identical in 5 on 5 stats. Last year Stamkos was tied for 2nd in 5 on 5 goals. I'm using your own website to get these numbers. Why do you keep insisting that he is not good 5 on 5.

Also, please tell me who you consider "elite" multi dimensional players.

[TrueBlueGED]

Hall is not the reason his team sucks, but you can't deny he sure hasn't done much to make it better.

What more is the man supposed to do? I know this is the Stamkos thread and I'm about to derail the crap out of it, but one hockey player does not a team make. Hall is a hair under a point per game player with top-10 in the NHL advanced metrics. Again I ask, what more is he supposed to do? I'm not even sure this is what you were getting at, but I want to take every "team success as judgment of an individual player" style arguments and launch them into the Sun, then blow the Sun up. I'M FIRED UP NOW, BABY! :angry:

 

Woooosssssaaaaa :p

Edited March 22, 2016 by TrueBlueGED

[WildCard]

In a vacuum I would too. This isn't a vacuum.

Hall is not the reason his team sucks, but you can't deny he sure hasn't done much to make it better.

Stamkos was scoring buckets long before Hedman (who is great) and Bishop (who is average) emerged.

I truly think Stamkos chooses a destination that offers the best combination of allowing him to succeed on the ice while meeting most of his goals off the ice.

 

I agree with this statement.

I also think you are confusing Steve Stamkos with Alexander Semin.

 

 

Hall was initially brought up on people I'd be excited to get, not ones I'd pay the price needed to get. Stamkos' price is largely the reason I don't want him. I'll happily take him at $7.5m, I don't believe him worth more than $9m, and I think he's off his ass to ask for $11m or the $12m some have wanted to give him

 

I can argue about Hall all day. Outside of McDavid, he's head and shoulders better than any player on that team

 

Stamkos scoring buckets wasn't the contention though. Your claim was Hall's team sucks, as did Tampa before they shored up their defense and goalie

 

And that's my thing with Stamkos. I honestly don't get it, we offer nothing to the guy other than money and proximity to his home town. Nothing. The only way we lure him here is by overpaying him the $11m he wants

What more is the man supposed to do? I know this is the Stamkos thread and I'm about to derail the crap out of it, but one hockey player does not a team make. Hall is a hair under a point per game player with top-10 in the NHL advanced metrics. Again I ask, what more is he supposed to do? I'm not even sure this is what you were getting at, but I want to take every "team success as judgment of an individual player" style arguments and launch them into the Sun, then blow the Sun up. I'M FIRED UP NOW, BABY! :angry:

 

Woooosssssaaaaa :P

:lol:

Prior to this year, Patrick Kane and Stankos were nearly identical in 5 on 5 stats. Last year Stamkos was tied for 2nd in 5 on 5 goals. I'm using your own website to get these numbers. Why do you keep insisting that he is not good 5 on 5.

Also, please tell me who you consider "elite" multi dimensional players.

5v5 points, that's about it. Kane does everything else. 3 Cups, a Conn Smythe, possession, defensive play...

Edited March 22, 2016 by WildCard

[beerme1]

Stamkos costs us money. Hall costs us much more.

 

Stop talking about Hall. If we are going to acquire a player that costs us assets than I would think it would be an LHD.

 

Stamkos costs us money. Hall costs us much more.

[WildCard]

Stamkos costs us money. Hall costs us much more.

 

Stop talking about Hall. If we are going to acquire a player that costs us assets than I would think it would be an LHD.

 

Stamkos costs us money. Hall costs us much more.

Honestly, you could at least read my posts.

 

Hall was brought up on players that would excite me, then subsequently compared to Stamko. I've already stated he costs too much, and I would look elsewhere. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by WildCard

[beerme1]

Honestly, you could at least read my posts.

 

Hall was brought up on players that would excite me, then subsequently compared to Stamko. I've already stated he costs too much, and I would look elsewhere. 

 

 

I've read everything in this thread and am not pointing the finger at you alone. Frankly you're not alone on the Hall front in part because his name has been put in the rumor mill. But why are we comparing these two guys when one MAY be available at a high cost of assets and one may be available for cash only? That's my hang up. If I can get a superior talent without giving up anything other than cash that I can afford, I'M BUYING!

Guys like this usually aren't available to just pick up for cash. I would get him if I could but as someone pointed out earlier, he doesn't fit our need/re build schedule. Phhhfffft. This kind of talent rarely goes to market. Lets be pigs. Wait, are we talking about Shane Doan?

 

And if that's a further problem blame my reading comprehension! I see what you've said but in my mind I see ***TAYLOR HALL*** and then I think of his game here and like I said one shift was all that I noticed him. All that peed and all that jazz and one shift was all that I noticed him. Pass.

Edited March 22, 2016 by beerme1

[dudacek]

5v5 points, that's about it. Kane does everything else. 3 Cups, a Conn Smythe...

 

I'm not even sure this is what you were getting at, but I want to take every "team success as judgment of an individual player" style arguments and launch them into the Sun, then blow the Sun up. I'M FIRED UP NOW, BABY! :angry:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:P

[Thorny]

In a vacuum I would too. This isn't a vacuum.

Hall is not the reason his team sucks, but you can't deny he sure hasn't done much to make it better.

Stamkos was scoring buckets long before Hedman (who is great) and Bishop (who is average) emerged.

I truly think Stamkos chooses a destination that offers the best combination of allowing him to succeed on the ice while meeting most of his goals off the ice.

 

I agree with this statement.

I also think you are confusing Steve Stamkos with Alexander Semin.

 

This is the first Stamkos scouting report I found. Seems to match the player I've seen:

Skates very well, has awesome hand/eye coordination and can score in a variety of ways. His one-timer when parked high in the slot is deadly. Displays solid playmaking and two-way upside. Plays with enough grit and aggression to keep opponents honest. Flaws: Needs more polish in the face-off circle, as well as continue to up his defensive-zone coverage (which isn't bad at all). He's a shooter first and foremost, but could still improve his passing skills a tad to maximize production. Also needs to limit his scoring slumps.

 

It ended by calling him elite.

 

Look, I don't even love Stamkos, I just like addressing flawed arguments.

I need to take a break.

Webster etc. Please feel free to carry the flag for a while.

 

I mean....yup. I was bored, so after reading a lot of comments about Stamkos not getting primary assists, being able to properly play the penalty kill, and what not, I went to (the poorly designed) NHL.com to watch a few of his recent highlights and check out his recent game logs. First highlight I go to, March 13, Stamkos has a beauty tape to tape, primary assist on a shorthanded goal. Almost all of his recent assists were primary. The dude can pass. But that's not even the reason we want him. He can put the puck in the net.

 

The highlight before his shorthanded assist was him scoring a shorthanded goal. And he has over 30 goals in a down year. I want this guy on my team.

 

The assist:

 

https://www.nhl.com/video/palat-pads-the-lead-shorthanded/t-279241350/c-42521103

 

What more is the man supposed to do? I know this is the Stamkos thread and I'm about to derail the crap out of it, but one hockey player does not a team make. Hall is a hair under a point per game player with top-10 in the NHL advanced metrics. Again I ask, what more is he supposed to do? I'm not even sure this is what you were getting at, but I want to take every "team success as judgment of an individual player" style arguments and launch them into the Sun, then blow the Sun up. I'M FIRED UP NOW, BABY! :angry:

 

Woooosssssaaaaa :P

 

 

Hall was initially brought up on people I'd be excited to get, not ones I'd pay the price needed to get. Stamkos' price is largely the reason I don't want him. I'll happily take him at $7.5m, I don't believe him worth more than $9m, and I think he's off his ass to ask for $11m or the $12m some have wanted to give him

 

I can argue about Hall all day. Outside of McDavid, he's head and shoulders better than any player on that team

 

Stamkos scoring buckets wasn't the contention though. Your claim was Hall's team sucks, as did Tampa before they shored up their defense and goalie

 

And that's my thing with Stamkos. I honestly don't get it, we offer nothing to the guy other than money and proximity to his home town. Nothing. The only way we lure him here is by overpaying him the $11m he wants

:lol:

5v5 points, that's about it. Kane does everything else. 3 Cups, a Conn Smythe, possession, defensive play...

 

I thought they were Toews's cups. They are actually Kane's? I thought Keith owned the last one....I can't keep track anymore :P

Edited March 22, 2016 by Thorny

[tom webster]

Hall was initially brought up on people I'd be excited to get, not ones I'd pay the price needed to get. Stamkos' price is largely the reason I don't want him. I'll happily take him at $7.5m, I don't believe him worth more than $9m, and I think he's off his ass to ask for $11m or the $12m some have wanted to give him

 

I can argue about Hall all day. Outside of McDavid, he's head and shoulders better than any player on that team

 

Stamkos scoring buckets wasn't the contention though. Your claim was Hall's team sucks, as did Tampa before they shored up their defense and goalie

 

And that's my thing with Stamkos. I honestly don't get it, we offer nothing to the guy other than money and proximity to his home town. Nothing. The only way we lure him here is by overpaying him the $11m he wants

 

:lol:

 

5v5 points, that's about it. Kane does everything else. 3 Cups, a Conn Smythe, possession, defensive play...

First, Hall can't do everything himself, but Stamkos is supposed to.

Second, this is the second time you referenced Kane's defensive play. I have never, ever hear anyone laud him for that, even his close friends. I'd like you to back that up with some facts.

Edited March 22, 2016 by tom webster

[WildCard]

I'm not even sure this is what you were getting at, but I want to take every "team success as judgment of an individual player" style arguments and launch them into the Sun, then blow the Sun up. I'M FIRED UP NOW, BABY! :angry:

 

 

:P

I mean....yup. I was bored, so after reading a lot of comments about Stamkos not getting primary assists, being able to properly play the penalty kill, and what not, I went to (the poorly designed) NHL.com to watch a few of his recent highlights and check out his recent game logs. First highlight I go to, March 13, Stamkos has a beauty tape to tape, primary assist on a shorthanded goal. Almost all of his recent assists were primary. The dude can pass. But that's not even the reason we want him. He can put the puck in the net.

 

The highlight before his shorthanded assist was him scoring a shorthanded goal. And he has over 30 goals in a down year. I want this guy on my team.

 

The assist:

 

https://www.nhl.com/video/palat-pads-the-lead-shorthanded/t-279241350/c-42521103

 

 

I thought they were Toews's cups. They are actually Kane's? I thought Keith owned the last one....I can't keep track anymore :P

Sure, I can find goals where Zemgus looks like Datsyuk, so what? Stamkos ranks 97th in the league in primary assists from 2012-2015 on 5v5. On 5v5 in that time frame, Stamkos has primaryAssists/game = .72 (61th), 53g(9th)-42a(105th)-95pts(30th)

 

For perspective, Crosby leads 5v5 in assists during that time frame (89a), of which 60 were primary assists. By the way, wanna know where Hall is for those? Just because I'm a dick, I'll tell you all

 

Hall: 35g(52nd) - 77a(4th) - 112pts(9th). Hall has 46 primaryAssists for a 1.06 primaries/game rating, and sits at 3rd in that time frame

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?disp=1&db=201215&sit=5v5&pos=forwards&minutes=2000&teamid=0&type=individual&sort=ifassists60&sortdir=DESC

 

Kiiinnnnddaaaa looks like Stamkos may really need that pp time

 

Oh and you and dudacek are definitely right, the Hawks Cups are a team accomplishment, not an individual's. Still 3 Cups to 0, and 1 Conn Smythe to 1 absolutely abysmal Cup performance. I'm gonna include that everytime  :lol:

 

Edit: Updated it for all players with at least 2000 minutes, the highest I could get it and fit Stamkos in

First, Hall can't do everything himself, but Stamkos is supposed to.

Second, this is the second time you referenced Kane's defensive play. I have never, ever hear anyone laud him for that, even his close friends. I'd like you to back that up with some facts.

Where did I say that about Stamkos? I've said he put up big numbers when his team was bad, as Hall has put up excellent stats when his team has been bad. Stamkos wants nearly 2X Hall's salary, and is the captain of his team. Should we not put more on his shoulders?

 

Secondly, Kane's defensive play isn't exactly stellar, but it's still better than Stamkos'. Though Stamkos does get nearly 10% more dFZ starts than Kane does

http://ownthepuck.blogspot.com/2016/01/warrior-charts-forwards.html

Edited March 22, 2016 by WildCard

[tom webster]

While I am a big believer in numbers, I don't buy the notion that numbers can quantify a player's defensive ability from team to team. They will tell you to a certain extent which players on your own team have better results but there are so many variables involved that while numbers and charts make for a good discussion they can't adequately define which is better defensively. That being said, I think we can agree that neither is known for their defensive ability. I only brought Kane into the conversation anyway because JJ, using this year's sample size labeled him clearly superior to Stamkos 5 on 5 and the numbers don;t back that up throughout their careers.

 

As far as your first question, when you respond one player is better then the other based on their team's accomplishments, you are blaming Stamkos even though you didn't directly say it. And Hall will ask for more then Stamkos money when he hits unrestricted free agency.

[WildCard]

While I am a big believer in numbers, I don't buy the notion that numbers can quantify a player's defensive ability from team to team. They will tell you to a certain extent which players on your own team have better results but there are so many variables involved that while numbers and charts make for a good discussion they can't adequately define which is better defensively. That being said, I think we can agree that neither is known for their defensive ability. I only brought Kane into the conversation anyway because JJ, using this year's sample size labeled him clearly superior to Stamkos 5 on 5 and the numbers don;t back that up throughout their careers.

 

As far as your first question, when you respond one player is better then the other based on their team's accomplishments, you are blaming Stamkos even though you didn't directly say it. And Hall will ask for more then Stamkos money when he hits unrestricted free agency.

I still thinks it's fair to heap that on Stamkos, given his captaincy and money demands. I'm not sure Hall will be in a position to barter for Stamkos money. Stamkos wants that money because he knows teams are desperate for a center, and all he has to do is point to his goal production and smile. Someone will bite on that. Hall is superior in everything else, but he has injuries, hasn't had the team success Stamkos has had, doesn't score goals like Stamkos, and is not a center. Hall will likely fetch a nice ROR contract of around $7.5-8m. He's also locked up until 2021 at $6m per, which is ###### insane for Edmonton to get away with

 

Kane is superior to Stamkos in 5v5 numbers. During 2012-2015, 5v5, we have 48g(12th) - 56a(36th) - 104pts(12th).

 

I can readily say neither are defensive all stars

Edited March 22, 2016 by WildCard

[Randall Flagg]

Neither here nor there, but primary vs. secondary assist is basically useless for me. Differentiating means nothing.

[WildCard]

Neither here nor there, but primary vs. secondary assist is basically useless for me. Differentiating means nothing.

It's not the end-all-be-all, but it's something important. You yourself have posted about Drasaitl being handed assists for making a routine pass to the point where the blue line shoots it for a tip in goal. I think it helps highlight the differences between creating and merely getting lucky/making a routine play

Edited March 22, 2016 by WildCard

[Randall Flagg]

It's not the end-all-be-all, but it's something important. You yourself have posted about Drasaitl being handed assists for making a routine pass to the point where the blue line shoots it for a tip in goal. I think it helps highlight the differences between creating and merely getting lucky/making a routine play

Sure, but half of the assists that didn't have much to do with the goal were primary, half were secondary. The one that bounced off his heel, barely changed direction, and went to Hall's stick and in was "primary". The sick cross-ice feed was secondary.

[WildCard]

Sure, but half of the assists that didn't have much to do with the goal were primary, half were secondary. The one that bounced off his heel, barely changed direction, and went to Hall's stick and in was "primary". The sick cross-ice feed was secondary.

How many times does that really happen? Where a guy makes a sick feed and some dude randomly sticks his foot out and misses the puck, or fails to corral it, and some other guy end up putting it home? You think the difference from 3rd to 61st is really heavily ladened with that scenario?

Edited March 22, 2016 by WildCard

[tom webster]

I still thinks it's fair to heap that on Stamkos, given his captaincy and money demands. I'm not sure Hall will be in a position to barter for Stamkos money. Stamkos wants that money because he knows teams are desperate for a center, and all he has to do is point to his goal production and smile. Someone will bite on that. Hall is superior in everything else, but he has injuries, hasn't had the team success Stamkos has had, doesn't score goals like Stamkos, and is not a center. Hall will likely fetch a nice ROR contract of around $7.5-8m. He's also locked up until 2021 at $6m per, which is ###### insane for Edmonton to get away with

 

Kane is superior to Stamkos in 5v5 numbers. During 2012-2015, 5v5, we have 48g(12th) - 56a(36th) - 104pts(12th).

 

I can readily say neither are defensive all stars

Now you are getting into JJ territory, In that same three year period,Stamkos registered 95 points in less games due to his leg injury. I think they are about even.

[TrueBlueGED]

Sure, but half of the assists that didn't have much to do with the goal were primary, half were secondary. The one that bounced off his heel, barely changed direction, and went to Hall's stick and in was "primary". The sick cross-ice feed was secondary.

I agree, the NHL should change the way it awards assists. But until that happens, I'm fairly certain primary assists track better with "real" plays than secondary assists.

[Randall Flagg]

How many times does that really happen? Where a guy makes a sick feed and some dude randomly sticks his foot out and misses the puck, or fails to corral it, and some other guy end up putting it home? You think the difference from 3rd to 61st is really heavily ladened with that scenario?

Maybe 61st specializes in breakout passes that are key to the entire play developing? I've never seen any research or evidence that indicates primary assists are more important to the play on average than a secondary assist. I'm certainly interested in seeing some, but I haven't had any time lately to do anything myself.

[WildCard]

Maybe 61st specializes in breakout passes that are key to the entire play developing? I've never seen any research or evidence that indicates primary assists are more important to the play on average than a secondary assist. I'm certainly interested in seeing some, but I haven't had any time lately to do anything myself.

I can't find any research on it. Like I said, the stat isn't enormous, but I don't know of another way to quantify Stamkos' playmaking ability 

 

Now you are getting into JJ territory, In that same three year period,Stamkos registered 95 points in less games due to his leg injury. I think they are about even.

Kane pts/60 = 2.30, Stamkos pts/60 = 2.28. 

 

 

So yeah, they're similar, but in an argument on semantics, I want my .2  :lol:  :lol:

 

And that's just points. I'd bet my left foot Kane is better in possession and opportunities during that time period, 5v5, too

Edited March 22, 2016 by WildCard

[JJFIVEOH]

Nevermind, it's just not worth it. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by JJFIVEOH

[tom webster]

 

I can't find any research on it. Like I said, the stat isn't enormous, but I don't know of another way to quantify Stamkos' playmaking ability

 

 

 

Kane pts/60 = 2.30, Stamkos pts/60 = 2.28.

 

 

So yeah, they're similar, but in an argument on semantics, I want my .2 :lol: :lol:

 

And that's just points. I'd bet my left foot Kane is better in possession and opportunities during that time period, 5v5, too

I'll give you the semantics so you'll give me that we all agree it's been Stankos two worst years. Again, the question is if it's a trend or not.