World Cup 2016

[Thorny]

Well we won't really know until Matthews has logged some NHL time, but based on what I've seen I'm adjusting my earlier belief that Jack is better. Aside from Auston being in Toronto, it doesn't bother me at all to do that, either. I don't need Jack to be the best player at age 19.

Is this a projection that Matthews will be better or that they are comparable?

[Randall Flagg]

I think the play at the end of the game was indicative of where Jack and Matthews are. 3 on 3 and both are gassed. Sweden gains possession and Reilly holds up his hands to indicate he has no stick. Jack got on his horse and made it back to break up essentially a 2 on 0. Matthews went to the bench. Jack is getting the total game concept that many were pining for last year. Matthews will eventually get there. Right now Matthews only knows full speed ahead.

I beamed when I saw Jack get his stick on that. And it was obvious he was whooped. He still made up so much ground.

[nfreeman]

How much did Jackie boy play? And who were his linemates?

[Eleven]

Nobody should hate you for speaking the truth. Granted I didn't watch today's game, but that's been the case all tournament, so I have no reason to question your point. The McDavid-Eichel comparisons were always folly anyway; Matthews-Eichel is much more interesting to me.

 

I think one thing that makes the comparison difficult (especially in a tournament like this), is they are very very different players. Myself and others were quite critical of Eichel's off-puck play last season--he's simply not good without the puck, and simply looks awkward if he goes long stretches in the offensive zone without it on his stick. This makes it difficult for him when he's playing with other puck-dominant players, as is the case here--players like Gaudreau and McDavid (who are better) are flying around doing their thing, and he's just sort of ~there~ if he isn't asserting himself to control the puck, which he hasn't. 3putt made a great observation on how he's really been looking to defer; so his best talents are being underutilized and the weakest part of his game is getting highlighted.

 

Matthews, on the other hand, seems to me to be much more effective without the puck than Eichel is. He can play on McDavid's wing because of this, and more generally, he appears to be a better fit on this team. He's also noticeably better with the puck in tight areas than Eichel is (Flagg if you mention stick length I swear to God...), which helps when you're playing all-star teams that don't give a ton of space. Overall I think he's the more versatile player right now, so he's shining. 

 

Yes.  He's still a kid, but that is right on.

[Randall Flagg]

Is this a projection that Matthews will be better or that they are comparable?

Not sure. I think Auston is probably better now. I think Jack could max out at 100points and Art Ross discussions every year if everything went well. Matthews maxes out at an 80-90 point Kopitar. I can't pretend I know what probabilities to attach to either of those scenarios, so we'll have to wait and see. I'm more than comfortable with our guy though.

 

I will say that I'm concerned that Bylsma isn't the guy to get the most out of Jack. And Babcock might be the guy to get that out of Auston.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Randall Flagg

[Eleven]

Not sure. I think Auston is probably better now. I think Jack could max out at 100points and Art Ross discussions every year if everything went well. Matthews maxes out at an 80-90 point Kopitar. I can't pretend I know what probabilities to attach to either of those scenarios, so we'll have to wait and see. I'm more than comfortable with our guy though.

 

I will say that I'm concerned that Bylsma isn't the guy to get the most out of Jack. And Babcock might be the guy to get that out of Auston.

 

Astute.  Not kidding.

[Thorny]

Not sure. I think Auston is probably better now. I think Jack could max out at 100points and Art Ross discussions every year if everything went well. Matthews maxes out at an 80-90 point Kopitar. I can't pretend I know what probabilities to attach to either of those scenarios, so we'll have to wait and see. I'm more than comfortable with our guy though.

I will say that I'm concerned that Bylsma isn't the guy to get the most out of Jack. And Babcock might be the guy to get that out of Auston.

Those seem like good evaluations, but I don't think Auston is better now. In fact, and I realize there are other variables, but I bet Auston doesn't reach Jack's point total from last year. And that's the Jack from a year ago. I think Eichel gets far more points this year.

[LGR4GM]

Not sure. I think Auston is probably better now. I think Jack could max out at 100points and Art Ross discussions every year if everything went well. Matthews maxes out at an 80-90 point Kopitar. I can't pretend I know what probabilities to attach to either of those scenarios, so we'll have to wait and see. I'm more than comfortable with our guy though.

 

I will say that I'm concerned that Bylsma isn't the guy to get the most out of Jack. And Babcock might be the guy to get that out of Auston.

I do not think Auston Matthews is as good at NHL hockey as Jack Eichel. 

I also think that Jack Eichel will be a better 2 way player than Matthews when all is said and done.

[Thorny]

I do not think Auston Matthews is as good at NHL hockey as Jack Eichel.

 

If Matthews gets more points than Eichel this year, I'll eat my hat. (And it's a nice hat)

[dudacek]

So far this tournament Matthews has been a better winger than Jack.

He's settled into a support role with the greatest player of his generation and shined.

 

Jack has done a good job playing centre paying attention to both ends.

But I think a decision to play a support role to Gaudreau may have been ill-advised.

He adjusted his game to complement Johnny Hockey where he is probably more suited to being the focus of his line. Games one and three he's been very good, regardless.

Edited September 22, 2016 by dudacek

[TrueBlueGED]

Not sure. I think Auston is probably better now. I think Jack could max out at 100points and Art Ross discussions every year if everything went well. Matthews maxes out at an 80-90 point Kopitar. I can't pretend I know what probabilities to attach to either of those scenarios, so we'll have to wait and see. I'm more than comfortable with our guy though.

 

I will say that I'm concerned that Bylsma isn't the guy to get the most out of Jack. And Babcock might be the guy to get that out of Auston.

 

I remain more bummed about losing out on Babcock than McDavid. Don't get me wrong, in a vacuum I'd rather have McDavid, of course...but we only ever had a 20% chance. I really thought we were getting Babcock., and Babcock + Eichel is every bit as championship caliber as McDavid + insert coach here. 

[Randall Flagg]

Great stuff here guys.

No kidding, this last page has been excellent. Hockey is back everyone. I missed this stuff after games.

[LGR4GM]

The thing with Jack is I think sometime this season his brain will catch up to his talent. When that happens, I think he will have a better ability to engage away from the puck and things will flow better.  This tournament might have been the best thing for him. He had to have learned a great deal through this experience and I am pumped he wears blue n gold.

[Randall Flagg]

Those seem like good evaluations, but I don't think Auston is better now. In fact, and I realize there are other variables, but I bet Auston doesn't reach Jack's point total from last year. And that's the Jack from a year ago. I think Eichel gets far more points this year.

We'll know soon enough, I hope you're right. I don't share the belief, but I hope it's true.

 

I do not think Auston Matthews is as good at NHL hockey as Jack Eichel. 

I also think that Jack Eichel will be a better 2 way player than Matthews when all is said and done.

I think I'd rather have Jack focus on being an offensive dynamo with merely passable defensive zone play. Does anyone give a what Pat Kane looks like in the defensive zone? We have ROR and Samson and Larsson down the middle, they will all fall on the range of good-to-elite in the defensive zone. Give me 90 points with O'Reilly on the wing over 70 points with ROR's two-way-play. 

 

Based on the games I saw in this tournament, his defensive zone play should be a lot better this season. The development is easy to see, and makes me happy.

[3putt]

So far this tournament Matthews has been a better winger than Jack.

He's settled into a support role with the greatest player of his generation and shined.

Jack has done a good job playing centre paying attention to both ends.

But I think a decision to play a support role to Gaudreau may have been ill-advised.

He adjusts his game to complement Johnny Hockey where he is probably more suits to being the focus of his line. Games one and three he's been very good, regardless.

I agree that deferring to Gudreau being less than optimal. I think you're seeing why they are reluctant to give him a max deal. The talent is there in spades but he fits this style of game, wide open, speed driven more than the grind of the typical NHL season. He is worth a boatload, but I understand the hesitation.

[TrueBlueGED]

So far this tournament Matthews has been a better winger than Jack.

He's settled into a support role with the greatest player of his generation and shined.

 

Jack has done a good job playing centre paying attention to both ends.

But I think a decision to play a support role to Gaudreau may have been ill-advised.

He adjusts his game to complement Johnny Hockey where he is probably more suits to being the focus of his line. Games one and three he's been very good, regardless.

 

This is precisely what I see in his game. At least at this point in his career, the line has to flow through him. People point to him floating and not moving his feet, and I get that, but my interpretation isn't that he's lazy, it's that he really doesn't know what to do without the puck for lengthy periods of time; it doesn't come naturally to him, in any event. My hope and expectation is that he improves that aspect of his game quite a bit over the next couple of years, but until then, his line has to be built around him.

Edited September 22, 2016 by TrueBlueGED

[dudacek]

I think Jack will be like Mogilny and Modano, in that the smooth nature of his his game will tend to leave the fans wanting more. Until, of course, he wins. I've questioned his choices, but I've seen little leading me to question his level of care.

Edited September 22, 2016 by dudacek

[Thorny]

We'll know soon enough, I hope you're right. I don't share the belief, but I hope it's true.

 

 

I think I'd rather have Jack focus on being an offensive dynamo with merely passable defensive zone play. Does anyone give a ###### what Pat Kane looks like in the defensive zone? We have ROR and Samson and Larsson down the middle, they will all fall on the range of good-to-elite in the defensive zone. Give me 90 points with O'Reilly on the wing over 70 points with ROR's two-way-play. 

 

Based on the games I saw in this tournament, his defensive zone play should be a lot better this season. The development is easy to see, and makes me happy.

Well, I'm confused. You projected Jack as a higher point player a couple posts ago. Do you not agree Jack will score more this year? Or think that Matthews gets more than 56 this year?

[3putt]

It was settled for me when he scored the eng vs the Devils. We needed the win, he beat 3 players to the puck and put it in. I got the sense it was less about the goal and more about sealing the win. I am not worried about his effort.

[Randall Flagg]

Well, I'm confused. You projected Jack as a higher point player a couple posts ago. Do you not agree Jack will score more this year? Or think that Matthews gets more than 56 this year?

I think Jack's ceiling at his peak can get him more points than Auston's, but they're different players with different development curves. I think Matthews is ridiculously polished and plays a much better 200 foot game, has better hands (especially in tight) and a bit more hockey sense. I don't mean to take ANYTHING away from Jack by saying this, Matthews is just ridiculous. 

 

I don't expect Matthews to outscore him this season, I think he'll have worse linemates and will come close to (and maybe pass, maybe fall short of) Jack's rookie year totals, and I'm expecting around 70 points from Jack himself. As for this statement perhaps contradicting the prediction that Matthews is better right now, I think ROR is a better player than Panarin, despite a 10+ point difference between the two.

[Thorny]

This is precisely what I see in his game. At least at this point in his career, the line has to flow through him. People point to him floating and not moving his feet, and I get that, but my interpretation isn't that he's lazy, it's that he really doesn't know what to do without the puck for lengthy periods of time; it doesn't come naturally to him, in any event. My hope and expectation is that he improves that aspect of his game quite a bit over the next couple of years, but until then, his line has to be built around him.

Ideally, don't we want the play funnelled through him, anyways? He'll be the best player on his line and wants to be carrying the puck.

 

I think Jack will be like Mogilny and Modano, in that the smooth nature of his his game will tend to leave the fans wanting more. Until, of course, he wins. I've questioned his choices, but I've seen little leading me to question his level of care.

Personally I have no interest in falling into this category. I won't let his smooth style put me in a position where I'm wishing he was an end-to-end non-stop motor guy always going full on after the puck at full speed. I think it's possible to accept his style and grow accustomed to it. He's not going to be a ROR-like player on the ice.

I think Jack's ceiling at his peak can get him more points than Auston's, but they're different players with different development curves. I think Matthews is ridiculously polished and plays a much better 200 foot game, has better hands (especially in tight) and a bit more hockey sense. I don't mean to take ANYTHING away from Jack by saying this, Matthews is just ridiculous. 

 

I don't expect Matthews to outscore him this season, I think he'll have worse linemates and will come close to (and maybe pass, maybe fall short of) Jack's rookie year totals, and I'm expecting around 70 points from Jack himself. As for this statement perhaps contradicting the prediction that Matthews is better right now, I think ROR is a better player than Panarin, despite a 10+ point difference between the two.

Fair enough. I disagree on the hands assessment, think they are pretty close there. No way Matthews has better hockey sense. I'd say vision is the biggest component of hockey sense, and Eichel's is better. 200 game it's hard to say. Jack's has been better this tournament. They are probably pretty equal in this regard.

[WildCard]

He has skated hard these last two games. There's a difference in moving your feet in the neutral zone to be in position and having a smooth style. He can have both

[Randall Flagg]

 

Fair enough. I disagree on the hands assessment, think they are pretty close there. No way Matthews has better hockey sense. I'd say vision is the biggest component of hockey sense, and Eichel's is better. 200 game it's hard to say. Jack's has been better this tournament. They are probably pretty equal in this regard.

I just think we're looking at different players, or watching a different tournament :lol: But again, we each see what we see, and the NHL will help us sort everything out. Can't wait for the season.

How much did Jackie boy play? And who were his linemates?

@BNHarrington - Eichel finished at 16:16 with 5 shots on goal, 5-5 on faceoffs.

 

From what I saw, he played with Trocheck and maybe Drouin or Miller? Don't quote me on that though. Played with Matthews for his OT shift, was out with Matthews and McDavid on a power play.

[Thorny]

He has skated hard these last two games. There's a difference in moving your feet in the neutral zone to be in position and having a smooth style. He can have both

Didn't say he couldn't. But I was commenting on specifically the smooth style as per the post I quoted.

 

I just think we're looking at different players, or watching a different tournament :lol: But again, we each see what we see, and the NHL will help us sort everything out. Can't wait for the season.

Scouts almost unanimously mention vision when it comes to Jack, not nearly as much with Matthews. Vision may be Jack's greatest strength, I don't think it's Matthews.

 

If Matthews vision is better than Jack, he's the better player hands down. Don't see it that way though. Jack is the better playmaker.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Thorny

[dudacek]

I have liked Matthews' game a lot. I think he is of a same level as Jack.

But don't underestimate the space McDavid creates, and the burdens taking on the defensive and passing responsibilities will create when he's in the NHL.

Edited September 22, 2016 by dudacek