Doohickie Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I've been super-pleased with the progress of the Sabres so far this season, as most of us are. One bone of contention a lot of people have is with the veterans that were brought in during the tank; I'm thinking of Moulson, Gionta and Gorges. Although he's a newcomer, you can throw Legwand into the mix too. Despite doubts after his microfracture surgery I think most people would agree that Gorges is holding up his end well, helping Risto look good on the top D pairing. Moulson, Gionta and Legwand, though, are criticized quite a bit 'round here. And they should be: They're older and a little slower than they used to be, past their prime. The perception is they're holding their younger linemates back, especially Moulson and Gionta with ROR. Is this justified? Let's just look at Moulson for a moment: with 4 goals and 2 assists for 6 points, only ROR, Ennis and Eichel rank above him for the team lead. At -1, his plus/minus isn't too bad either. I know we want all our players to be superstars, but really compared to the rest of the team his production hasn't been too bad. You can't quite make that same argument about Gionta and Legwand though; both are near the bottom of the pack in points and +/-. But taken as a group, what do these guys do? They provide stability for the kids. Even though they're slower than they used to be, if you watch them shift in and shift out, they keep their feet moving, are well positioned, and give it an honest effort. They play smart hockey. This is the example you want to give the younger guys on the team. Are they part of the long term future? No. But they are needed on this team for where they are right now. You might complain that Gionta and Moulson are slowing down ROR, but maybe that's by design: That's our "top line" with the names that the rest of the NHL knows; an opposing coach is apt to put his top D pair up against them, and maybe split time with the Eichel line. That opens up the ice for our second and third lines. If opponents adjust and move their top pairing to cover the 2nd and 3rd lines better, then I think you'll see Moulson and Gionta looking better with ROR. The other thing these guys bring is the stability off ice, especially in the locker room. Famously on this forum, WPG's locker room leader, Buff, was hazing Kane to make his point. Gionta, Gorges, Moulson and Legwand are providing much better leadership than could be expected considering who was on this team a season and a half ago. They've been key acquisitions to develop this team even if they don't produce sexy stats. In the end (maybe next season, maybe even later this season), the veteran leaders will start to be pushed down to the third line and maybe even healthy scratch. But right now having them in there pulling their shift is giving the younger guys room to grow without more pressure than they can handle. ROR is a key part of that strategy, but the older vets play into it as well. You can complain about DD's line composition, and maybe you're even right to do so, but realize that even if the graybeards aren't putting up big numbers, they are making a big contribution to this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I've been super-pleased with the progress of the Sabres so far this season, as most of us are. One bone of contention a lot of people have is with the veterans that were brought in during the tank; I'm thinking of Moulson, Gionta and Gorges. Although he's a newcomer, you can throw Legwand into the mix too. Despite doubts after his microfracture surgery I think most people would agree that Gorges is holding up his end well, helping Risto look good on the top D pairing. Moulson, Gionta and Legwand, though, are criticized quite a bit 'round here. And they should be: They're older and a little slower than they used to be, past their prime. The perception is they're holding their younger linemates back, especially Moulson and Gionta with ROR. Is this justified? Let's just look at Moulson for a moment: with 4 goals and 2 assists for 6 points, only ROR, Ennis and Eichel rank above him for the team lead. At -1, his plus/minus isn't too bad either. I know we want all our players to be superstars, but really compared to the rest of the team his production hasn't been too bad. You can't quite make that same argument about Gionta and Legwand though; both are near the bottom of the pack in points and +/-. But taken as a group, what do these guys do? They provide stability for the kids. Even though they're slower than they used to be, if you watch them shift in and shift out, they keep their feet moving, are well positioned, and give it an honest effort. They play smart hockey. This is the example you want to give the younger guys on the team. Are they part of the long term future? No. But they are needed on this team for where they are right now. You might complain that Gionta and Moulson are slowing down ROR, but maybe that's by design: That's our "top line" with the names that the rest of the NHL knows; an opposing coach is apt to put his top D pair up against them, and maybe split time with the Eichel line. That opens up the ice for our second and third lines. If opponents adjust and move their top pairing to cover the 2nd and 3rd lines better, then I think you'll see Moulson and Gionta looking better with ROR. The other thing these guys bring is the stability off ice, especially in the locker room. Famously on this forum, WPG's locker room leader, Buff, was hazing Kane to make his point. Gionta, Gorges, Moulson and Legwand are providing much better leadership than could be expected considering who was on this team a season and a half ago. They've been key acquisitions to develop this team even if they don't produce sexy stats. In the end (maybe next season, maybe even later this season), the veteran leaders will start to be pushed down to the third line and maybe even healthy scratch. But right now having them in there pulling their shift is giving the younger guys room to grow without more pressure than they can handle. ROR is a key part of that strategy, but the older vets play into it as well. You can complain about DD's line composition, and maybe you're even right to do so, but realize that even if the graybeards aren't putting up big numbers, they are making a big contribution to this team. Nice post. Some very good points. I would further add that that veteran leadership IMHO is critical to letting the kids develop. Not so much because they 'teach the kids how to be pros' though they do do that. But moreso by letting the kids focus on what they have to do and not worrying about what their teammates are doing. Gionta, Gorges, & Moulson, (& Legwand to a large extent though he's brand new here) should (and appear to) have the respect of their teammates and can call somebody out when necessary w/out the guy getting called out going 'who the #### are you to call ME out.' They also can have the back of any kid that does inately lead. Having established guys be leaders while the kids are getting their feet wet improves the development process and gives those kids the opportunity to develop their own credibility in the dressing room. So that when it's time for Jack & Risto & others to take the reins, it's a positive for them & the team. Not sure if the next captain will be O'Reilly or Eichel (highly depends on when Gionta relinquishes that role), but both have had a chance to be part of the team before getting thrust into that role. This is so much better than when Rivet got thrown into there because there was no one else to take it. (Yeah, Gionta got thrown in as well, but w/ the turnover from last year it's different. Gionta IS a Sabre.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 Good stuff here boys. TBJ -- I especially appreciate the point about ROR-Moulson-Gionta drawing the opponent's top D pairing -- that is a good call. Overall, I'd say Gorges and Legwand are meeting expectations and do not create any issues with either their play or their contracts, Gionta is a bit below expectations but since his contract only has 1 more year after this one, the overall evaluation isn't too bad, and Moulson is well below expectations and, with a contract that has 3 more years after this one, the overall evaluation is pretty disappointing. Plenty of time left for improvement though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 Good post and fair points. I would quibble with the characterization that Moulson was brought in for veteran leadership. I think he was actually thought to be a contributor at about a 20/20/ pace. I have been critical of Gionta and Moulson for the most part but I am of the school that doesn't value veteran leadership that much. Where I give those guys kudos is for there ability to teach, primarily through example, of the little things that go largely unnoticed that are critical to making the transition. In the Tampa game, Gionta made a play where he knew the line was gassed and held the puck a tad longer then feathered it over the Bolts blueline to facilitate the change. This allowed Moulson who was on the far side to get off rather than have to challenge to the puck and get further gassed. Two shifts later Samson did the same thing after two other times firing it in and allowing the Bolts to grab possession turn up ice and attack the zone while the change was still going on. On Foligno's goal Legwand could have banged the puck up the boards where Tampa was two deep and essentially turn it over. Rather he also held it another split second and made the cross ice pass safely after the backchecker was in no position to intercept it. I have noticed Jack, Samson and McCabe all mature with the way hold the puck and don't slap at it to move it anywhere instead of to a place where we can get it back or defend on the transition. These are minor things but I think are being mimicked after watching the veterans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted November 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 (Yeah, Gionta got thrown in as well, but w/ the turnover from last year it's different. Gionta IS a Sabre.) Gionta was brought in with the specific aim of being the captain through the worst of the Tank and the beginning of the rebuild. I think he was purposely targeted for both his WNY roots (IS a Sabre) as well as the role he previously played in Montreal. Just a massively key transitional piece if you ask me. So it wasn't thrust on him, it was what he signed up for. These are minor things but I think are being mimicked after watching the veterans. Also I think implementation of Bylsma's system is a big part of that. But having the vets executing that system to demonstrate its success reinforces it for the kids. In general I think you pointed out some really great examples of how the leadership and veteran presence is passing their NHL knowledge down to several players that are pretty much wholly inexperienced in the ways of the NHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 Good stuff here boys. TBJ -- I especially appreciate the point about ROR-Moulson-Gionta drawing the opponent's top D pairing -- that is a good call. Overall, I'd say Gorges and Legwand are meeting expectations and do not create any issues with either their play or their contracts, Gionta is a bit below expectations but since his contract only has 1 more year after this one, the overall evaluation isn't too bad, and Moulson is well below expectations and, with a contract that has 3 more years after this one, the overall evaluation is pretty disappointing. Plenty of time left for improvement though. Yeah. But at the time of the signing, many here expected that that contract would be bad by the end but were ok w/ it beacause it isn't THAT bad & all teams have 1 or 2 bad ones. The positives of it were, at the time of the signing they had NO natural goal scorers and they also had another vet that WANTED to be in Buffalo even though they'd be very bad for (at least) 1 more year. That last point should be worth something down the road in getting other players willing/ wanting to be in Buffalo. Moulson's play has been disappointing, but he's still on pace for low 20's. Pick it up slightly and just about everybody here would be fine w/ high 20's. And playing surrogate dad to Eichel has to have some value, right? Gionta was brought in with the specific aim of being the captain through the worst of the Tank and the beginning of the rebuild. I think he was purposely targeted for both his WNY roots (IS a Sabre) as well as the role he previously played in Montreal. Just a massively key transitional piece if you ask me. So it wasn't thrust on him, it was what he signed up for. Also I think implementation of Bylsma's system is a big part of that. But having the vets executing that system to demonstrate its success reinforces it for the kids. In general I think you pointed out some really great examples of how the leadership and veteran presence is passing their NHL knowledge down to several players that are pretty much wholly inexperienced in the ways of the NHL. A much better way of saying what I was getting at. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 I'm sure this time last year Gionta was wondering if he made the right call to come to the Sabres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 I'm sure this time last year Gionta was wondering if he made the right call to come to the Sabres. Weren't we all, Johnny? Weren't we all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelo Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 (edited) I've become a Legwand fan. He was an overall #2 draft pick back in the day, the same draft position as Reinhart and Eichel. He was the face of Nashville Preds being their captain for over 10 years. I think he is bringing fast perspective for Reinhart/Eichel, what it takes to be a major leaguer, day in day out. He might be slower but you still see him making the smart plays and good crisp passes and he's had a surprising number of chances himself. I think especially Reinhart looks up to Legwand. I'm not sure where I heard it but I read his leadership is so obvious that pretty much the locker room revolves around him. Edited November 13, 2015 by Marvelo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 I've become a Legwand fan. He was an overall #2 draft pick back in the day, the same draft position as Reinhart and Eichel. He was the face of Nashville Preds being their captain for over 10 years. I think he is bringing fast perspective for Reinhart/Eichel, what it takes to be a major leaguer, day in day out. He might be slower but you still see him making the smart plays and good crisp passes and he's had a surprising number of chances himself. I think especially Reinhart looks up to Legwand. I'm not sure where I heard it but I read his leadership is so obvious that pretty much the locker room revolves around him. I like Legwand too, but the bolded is overstated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 Yeah, if you think of leadership as gravitational pull, I think what we've got is a multibody system revolving around itself with some lesser leadership masses in a close orbit. And Coco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 I can't get over the opinion that Moulson is not contributing or below expectations. He is 6th on the team in scoring and at an even +/-. He is 4-5 minutes lower in TOI and 4-6 less shifts per game than those above him (two are D) What is he doing wrong? Is he not flashy enough? Does he not shut people down enough? He's here to contribute scoring and clearly he is doing that. Gio is here for other reasons and he's really more of the steadying mentality. His production could be a bit better but he's dependable. I think the Sabres have a great mix of talent and personalities. The scoring has started to come together and we are seeing times where the Sabres have just pinned other teams in their own zone. We are at game 16 with all of this. Let's see how they do through November against some tough competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 LTS <3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 My problem with Moulson is that when he's not scoring, he doesn't bring anything else to the table. Is 6th on the team in scoring good enough for a one dimensional player with a $5 million cap hit? I'm not sure that it is. That said, I don't think he's exactly been put in prime position to accumulate points. Being on the 3rd line most of the season hasn't helped his case, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR HOLLIDAY Posted November 13, 2015 Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 I think Legwand has played a very well for us......He is a very solid overall player and he helped solidify the PK........Made a big play tying up a player on a rebound yesterday saving a goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 My problem with Moulson is that when he's not scoring, he doesn't bring anything else to the table. Is 6th on the team in scoring good enough for a one dimensional player with a $5 million cap hit? I'm not sure that it is. That said, I don't think he's exactly been put in prime position to accumulate points. Being on the 3rd line most of the season hasn't helped his case, that's for sure. Well, he's on the third line and 6th in points. Now he's a +1. I see him out there actually hitting people as well. Perhaps he's not been put in the best position to score but he's still more reliable on the ice than everyone but Reinhart. On THIS team I think it's what you are going to get for his $5M, at this time. That said, it doesn't seem to be so bad. It's the idea of what Moulson was in the past versus what he is here to do now. I do believe his scoring will improve as the season moves on as well. We shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 I really don't have a problem with the way any of the vets have been playing. I don't think we were expecting anything out of Legwand and he's been surprisingly noticeable on offense. Moulson is on a 20/20 pace (close enough), and as has been mentioned most of that is on the 3rd line. I think Gionta has been getting way too much criticism lately, I think he became the default whipping boy before the season even started. Of the two games I attended down here Gionta was one of the better players in the first game, he was the best player on the ice the second game. Stats don't always indicate level of play. Moulson will get better as the team begins to gel. Some people are ready to give up on players the second they're over the hump. When you have guys like Kane, Ennis, Eichel, O'Reilly.............. those over the hump guys aren't here for scoring, they're here for leadership. As soft as players have become I think veteran leadership is more important now than ever before. I'm not going to look at the stats and judge whether or not these guys should be on the team, their responsibilities lie where we can't see them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woods-racer Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I really don't have a problem with the way any of the vets have been playing. I don't think we were expecting anything out of Legwand and he's been surprisingly noticeable on offense. Moulson is on a 20/20 pace (close enough), and as has been mentioned most of that is on the 3rd line. I think Gionta has been getting way too much criticism lately, I think he became the default whipping boy before the season even started. Of the two games I attended down here Gionta was one of the better players in the first game, he was the best player on the ice the second game. Stats don't always indicate level of play. Moulson will get better as the team begins to gel. Some people are ready to give up on players the second they're over the hump. When you have guys like Kane, Ennis, Eichel, O'Reilly.............. those over the hump guys aren't here for scoring, they're here for leadership. As soft as players have become I think veteran leadership is more important now than ever before. I'm not going to look at the stats and judge whether or not these guys should be on the team, their responsibilities lie where we can't see them. Are you old or something? Cause, like, really dude, I mean thats not right or something. Leadership and stuff is not important when you have an i-phone cause you can just google it. Do I need to add color JJ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I have no idea what you just said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woods-racer Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) Sarcasm in a youthful tone (the color comment). Once again I've failed at my humorous attempts as I have to explain them. Edited November 16, 2015 by Woods-Racer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted November 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Me neither. Even after the explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woods-racer Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Me neither. Even after the explanation. Man am I bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Amerk Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Man am I bad. I liked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) It's the thought that counts. Maybe I am just old. :D Edited November 16, 2015 by JJFIVEOH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Man am I bad. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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