Better call Saul

[chuck schick]

Are you tuco?

Ha...I never knew that Tio means uncle until just now (I took French in school). Always learning something new!

[K-9]

Ha...I never knew that Tio means uncle until just now (I took French in school). Always learning something new!

If your tia had balls, she'd be your tio. 

[PASabreFan]

The law of unintended consequences. Great episode. Maybe the best yet.

[Robviously]

Karma's a bitch chuck.

The "karma" of trying to clear your name when you're the victim of forgery and fraud.  <_<

 

Chuck is the good guy.  Jimmy is the bad guy and he's corrupting Kim along the way.

[PASabreFan]

The "karma" of trying to clear your name when you're the victim of forgery and fraud.  <_<

 

Chuck is the good guy.  Jimmy is the bad guy and he's corrupting Kim along the way.

No, the karma of screwing over your brother.

[K-9]

Chuck is the good guy? Are we forgetting how he royally screwed Jimmy over in season 1? 

 

Like all the characters in the show, he has sympathetic qualities, but his ego and jealousy of Jimmy have caused him to harm Jimmy professionally and personally. 

[inkman]

The "karma" of trying to clear your name when you're the victim of forgery and fraud. <_<

 

Chuck is the good guy. Jimmy is the bad guy and he's corrupting Kim along the way.

I guess I identify with Jimmy a lot more. Chuck is willing to put himself in serious harms way to ensure everything Jimmy fails. He didn't have to pitch Mesa Grande. He risked his health to his brother. I don't care about the legal course of either of their actions.

[PASabreFan]

Kim's hands aren't clean. She resigned from her job at HHM then sprinted down the hall to use the company phone to try and poach Mesa Verde.

[K-9]

Kim's hands aren't clean. She resigned from her job at HHM then sprinted down the hall to use the company phone to try and poach Mesa Verde.

Agreed. That's been a running theme all season. She objects to the shady behavior up until she benefits from it. Her suggesting that one has to "cross every T and dot every I" when dealing with Chuck was indicative, I think. 

 

But that damned coffee cup still won't fit, I bet. 

[Robviously]

No, the karma of screwing over your brother.

Everything he's ever said about his brother is completely true.  And he didn't "screw" him in season 1 -- he just didn't want him working for the law firm that he built.  Would you?  When they were younger, Jimmy literally stole from his own father's business until he had to close it.  If you built a hugely successful business from the ground up, would you want this person working with you?  Especially when they share your last name and reputation is nearly everything in law firms?

 

And he didn't screw him in season 2.  He won the Mesa Verde business back fair and square with a final pitch that was dead on accurate about what HHM could bring that a new, 1-person firm couldn't.  And he went to the copy store to clear him name after the worst humiliation of his career (thanks to Jimmy's forgery).  He wasn't trying to destroy his brother; he was trying to undo the criminal damage that was done to him.

 

Chuck has had to bail Jimmy out his entire life (literally in some cases).  He tried to give him honest work at his company but also tried to keep him at arm's length, and it still blew up in his face.  He's not perfect by any stretch but he's a far more sympathetic character than Jimmy.

[PASabreFan]

Everything he's ever said about his brother is completely true.  And he didn't "screw" him in season 1 -- he just didn't want him working for the law firm that he built.  Would you?  When they were younger, Jimmy literally stole from his own father's business until he had to close it.  If you built a hugely successful business from the ground up, would you want this person working with you?  Especially when they share your last name and reputation is nearly everything in law firms?

 

And he didn't screw him in season 2.  He won the Mesa Verde business back fair and square with a final pitch that was dead on accurate about what HHM could bring that a new, 1-person firm couldn't.  And he went to the copy store to clear him name after the worst humiliation of his career (thanks to Jimmy's forgery).  He wasn't trying to destroy his brother; he was trying to undo the criminal damage that was done to him.

 

Chuck has had to bail Jimmy out his entire life (literally in some cases).  He tried to give him honest work at his company but also tried to keep him at arm's length, and it still blew up in his face.  He's not perfect by any stretch but he's a far more sympathetic character than Jimmy.

Did you miss the episode where, years ago, Jimmy came to dinner with Chuck and his wife? Jimmy won over the Mrs. and Chuck was seething in bed. This is classic sibling rivalry, but Chuck takes it to an extreme with his conniving and manipulation. There's nothing noble about Chuck. What kind of brother doesn't want his brother to be a lawyer? It's not about defending the sanctity of the law. It's about nailing his brother. Honest work... in the mailroom, where Jimmy still could have undermined the firm. Do you really think HHM needed the Mesa Verde account that badly? Was it money that motivated Chuck to leave his comfortable lair and head back to work, or something else? Don't forget, Chuck is alone. We don't know what happened to the wife. We'll probably find out Jimmy nailed her. And Jimmy has Kim. So there's all that, too.

[nfreeman]

The law of unintended consequences. Great episode. Maybe the best yet.

 

Yes indeedly -- for both Jimmy and Mike (with the good Samaritan getting killed after the truck hijacking).  This was maybe the central theme of BB.

 

 

No, the karma of screwing over your brother.

Chuck is the good guy? Are we forgetting how he royally screwed Jimmy over in season 1? 

 

Like all the characters in the show, he has sympathetic qualities, but his ego and jealousy of Jimmy have caused him to harm Jimmy professionally and personally. 

Everything he's ever said about his brother is completely true.  And he didn't "screw" him in season 1 -- he just didn't want him working for the law firm that he built.  Would you?  When they were younger, Jimmy literally stole from his own father's business until he had to close it.  If you built a hugely successful business from the ground up, would you want this person working with you?  Especially when they share your last name and reputation is nearly everything in law firms?

 

And he didn't screw him in season 2.  He won the Mesa Verde business back fair and square with a final pitch that was dead on accurate about what HHM could bring that a new, 1-person firm couldn't.  And he went to the copy store to clear him name after the worst humiliation of his career (thanks to Jimmy's forgery).  He wasn't trying to destroy his brother; he was trying to undo the criminal damage that was done to him.

 

Chuck has had to bail Jimmy out his entire life (literally in some cases).  He tried to give him honest work at his company but also tried to keep him at arm's length, and it still blew up in his face.  He's not perfect by any stretch but he's a far more sympathetic character than Jimmy.

Did you miss the episode where, years ago, Jimmy came to dinner with Chuck and his wife? Jimmy won over the Mrs. and Chuck was seething in bed. This is classic sibling rivalry, but Chuck takes it to an extreme with his conniving and manipulation. There's nothing noble about Chuck. What kind of brother doesn't want his brother to be a lawyer? It's not about defending the sanctity of the law. It's about nailing his brother. Honest work... in the mailroom, where Jimmy still could have undermined the firm. Do you really think HHM needed the Mesa Verde account that badly? Was it money that motivated Chuck to leave his comfortable lair and head back to work, or something else? Don't forget, Chuck is alone. We don't know what happened to the wife. We'll probably find out Jimmy nailed her. And Jimmy has Kim. So there's all that, too.

 

What conniving and manipulation?

 

I'm with Robvy on this.  Chuck hasn't screwed Jimmy.  Chuck built up a great firm and knows that Jimmy is a corner-cutting agent of destruction, so he didn't want Jimmy in a position where he could harm the firm (which, let's remember, employs a lot of people other than Chuck).  Chuck was willing to pay Jimmy a referral fee for bringing the nursing home case to HHM, but he didn't want Jimmy working for HHM as a lawyer.  That's not screwing Jimmy -- it's just Chuck protecting HHM from Jimmy.  For example, Chuck guessed, correctly, that Jimmy was probably breaking the client solicitation rules in signing up the individual nursing home clients, and he didn't want HHM to be associated with that kind of rule-breaking.

 

More broadly, Chuck also didn't think that Jimmy was suited for practicing law.  In retrospect it's hard to argue with that assessment.

 

As for the scene with Chuck's wife/girlfriend -- yes, Chuck clearly resents Jimmy's easy charm.  But that doesn't mean that Chuck trying to protect his firm from Jimmy is tantamount to Chuck screwing Jimmy.

 

Regarding Kim, I agree that she's somewhat compromised albeit still walking a fine line.  I think if Chuck had any solid evidence of Jimmy's forgery, Kim would've capitulated. 

[K-9]

Is there a national chapter of the Chuck McGill Fan Club? I wanna join. The man is a saint; above acting in any malevolent way. 

 

Seriously though, he isn't the first sympathetic literary character with high morals and ethical standards that has been motivated by jealousy to harm a loved one. Sure, we can all say he was just protecting the firm and we can all listen as he professes how he loves his brother, but he was willing to send Jimmy to jail because "facts are facts." And to think he did anything short of trying to sabotage Jimmy's law career is willful blindness to what we saw in season 1. 

 

Great guy. Schitty older brother who puts conditions on his love for Jimmy, while Jimmy literally nursed him through many nights when there was nobody else around, no questions asked. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by K-9

[PASabreFan]

Regarding Kim, I agree that she's somewhat compromised albeit still walking a fine line.  I think if Chuck had any solid evidence of Jimmy's forgery, Kim would've capitulated. 

Don't you think Kim knew he did it? The arm punches, not to mention the advice to cover his tracks, which sent Jimmy back to the copy shop and perhaps led to Chuck's death?

[nfreeman]

Don't you think Kim knew he did it? The arm punches, not to mention the advice to cover his tracks, which sent Jimmy back to the copy shop and perhaps led to Chuck's death?

Yes -- she knew (or, more accurately, she believed) he did it. That is what I meant about her being compromised.

 

OTOH, it's a serious accusation -- presumably a felony -- and as a lawyer she knows that Jimmy can't, and shouldn't, be convicted without evidence.

 

Once again Jimmy has put her in a bad position. If she resigns from the Mesa Verde representation and Chuck pursues legal action against Jimmy, she looks guilty by association. If she doesn't resign, she's swallowed a big unethical poop sandwich.

[K-9]

Don't you think Kim knew he did it? The arm punches, not to mention the advice to cover his tracks, which sent Jimmy back to the copy shop and perhaps led to Chuck's death?

Kim knew Jimmy did it when listening to Chuck tell the story. But she chose to benefit from Jimmy's act, anyway. The arm punches and advice to "cross all Ts and dot all Is" only confirmed that she knew. 

[nfreeman]

Is there a national chapter of the Chuck McGill Fan Club? I wanna join. The man is a saint; above acting in any malevolent way. 

 

Seriously though, he isn't the first sympathetic literary character with high morals and ethical standards that has been motivated by jealousy to harm a loved one. Sure, we can all say he was just protecting the firm and we can all listen as he professes how he loves his brother, but he was willing to send Jimmy to jail because "facts are facts." And to think he did anything short of trying to sabotage Jimmy's law career is willful blindness to what we saw in season 1. 

 

Great guy. Schitty older brother who puts conditions on his love for Jimmy, while Jimmy literally nursed him through many nights when there was nobody else around, no questions asked. 

 

How, exactly, did Chuck try to sabotage Jimmy's legal career?  By not wanting Jimmy to practice law at HHM?  Am I forgetting something?

 

As for being willing to send Jimmy to jail, we don't know that he would've taken it that far, although it's certainly possible.

[chuck schick]

How, exactly, did Chuck try to sabotage Jimmy's legal career?  By not wanting Jimmy to practice law at HHM?  Am I forgetting something?

 

As for being willing to send Jimmy to jail, we don't know that he would've taken it that far, although it's certainly possible.

You guys have changed my opinion of Chuck a little. He is probably not "out to get" Jimmy, but is just more intent on protecting himself from Jimmy's antics.

However....I don't think he's any more righteous than Jimmy; he just uses means that are technically legal to get what he wants. (For example, using Howard to be the bad guy in keeping Jimmy out of the firm). That's Chuck's comfort zone, and the method that has allowed him to get what he wants and still feel high-and-mighty about it. Jimmy is obviously more liberal with how he gets things done.

[K-9]

How, exactly, did Chuck try to sabotage Jimmy's legal career?  By not wanting Jimmy to practice law at HHM?  Am I forgetting something?

 

As for being willing to send Jimmy to jail, we don't know that he would've taken it that far, although it's certainly possible.

You'll recall in season 1 after Jimmy and Chuck met with Sandpiper's lawyers and Chuck demanded $20m to settle, that night, while Jimmy was asleep, Chuck stepped outside to make a call. Thinks about that. Chuck steps OUTSIDE to use an electronic device. Such was his level of moitvation. Turns out he was calling Howard to tell him to cut Jimmy out of the case and deny him a position at HHM. The next day at his triumphant return to the HHM offices, Howard offers Jimmy the finder's fee and Chuck acts like he's surprised and hurt by Howard's dismissal of Jimmy when it was he who contrived to arrange it that way. Talk about a slippery manipulation. This was all revealed by Chuck to Jimmy later that evening. If that's not sabotage, I don't know what is. 

 

All this after Jimmy worked his ass off for a degree while working in the mail room and after all his hustle to land one of the biggest class action suits in New Mexico history. 

 

Chuck also was complicit in Kim's exile to the documents room in the basement at HHM earlier this season. 

 

I believe Chuck was willing to send Jimmy to jail because when Kim suggested that if the story Chuck was telling about the forgery was true, then Jimmy would be arrested for fraud, forgery, "even breaking and entering." Chuck says, "I don't like it any more than you do, but the facts are the facts." Chuck also went to great lengths to find the copy center and interrogate the store manager; first by sending Ernie and then risking his very health by leaving his comfort zone to question the store manager in person. So yeah, I think Chuck was hell bent on getting Jimmy arrested and charged. 

 

Let's face it, Chuck, while possessing many admirable and sympathetic qualities, is not above hurting a loved one out of ego and jealousy. 

[Taro T]

How, exactly, did Chuck try to sabotage Jimmy's legal career?  By not wanting Jimmy to practice law at HHM?  Am I forgetting something?

 

As for being willing to send Jimmy to jail, we don't know that he would've taken it that far, although it's certainly possible.

By taking the nursing home case from Jimmy and giving it to HHM while (initially) locking Jimmy out of it, perhaps? Kim & Howard were the ones that got Jimmy back in on that.

 

Not saying that Chuck didn't have good reason to try to keep Jimmy away from major cases, but actively keeping him away could be considered sabotaging it.

 

He also, if he wanted to see his brother succeed, could have pulled some strings to try to get him into the DA's office rather than let him founder around in a broom closet behind a manicure shop. I would expect that Jimmy would have played it straight there (& flat out would've hated the job). As far as we know, at present, he did play it straight while in the mailroom.

 

Chuck sees the world through such a peculiar perspective. Will be interesting to see more of the backstory get revealed to see how he came to see the world as he does. But w/ that perspective, he thinks his brother is dangerous to those around Jimmy and seems to feel it's his duty to reveal the danger. And that does end up sabotaging Jimmy. Not saying whether that's a good or a bad thing in the grand scheme. Guess it's a good thing because w/out Saul, we never get Breaking Bad to hit in full glory. Or, could look at it as bad as it led directly to the demise of 2 really cool characters - Mike & Hank. Grand scheme of things.

 

Too bad for Chuck that Kim started in the mailroom. Had she not pushed on for her JD, maybe Chuck could have kept Jimmy in the mailroom, w/ society out of harm's way, for a few more years.

[PASabreFan]

I like chuck schick's chuck shtick.

[inkman]

Is there a national chapter of the Chuck McGill Fan Club? I wanna join. The man is a saint; above acting in any malevolent way.

 

Seriously though, he isn't the first sympathetic literary character with high morals and ethical standards that has been motivated by jealousy to harm a loved one. Sure, we can all say he was just protecting the firm and we can all listen as he professes how he loves his brother, but he was willing to send Jimmy to jail because "facts are facts." And to think he did anything short of trying to sabotage Jimmy's law career is willful blindness to what we saw in season 1.

 

Great guy. Schitty older brother who puts conditions on his love for Jimmy, while Jimmy literally nursed him through many nights when there was nobody else around, no questions asked.

I couldn't have said it better. To what extent is Chuck willing to go "for the greater good"? It sure feels a lot more like spiteful vindictiveness than any sort of high moral obligations. He's draping his disdain for all things Jimmy with the cloak of legality but he's really just trying to suppress Jimmy. His "victory laps" comment completely implicates him in this motivation.

 

This is by far my favorite discussion ever on Sabrespace.

[K-9]

I couldn't have said it better. To what extent is Chuck willing to go "for the greater good"? It sure feels a lot more like spiteful vindictiveness than any sort of high moral obligations. He's draping his disdain for all things Jimmy with the cloak of legality but he's really just trying to suppress Jimmy. His "victory laps" comment completely implicates him in this motivation.

 

This is by far my favorite discussion ever on Sabrespace.

Like I said, Chuck has admirable qualities but I don't think it's Gilligan's intention to portray him as a paragon of moral integrity, either. He's flawed and blinded by his own ambition, ego, and jealousy of Jimmy. We've seen that in the series on several occasions now. 

 

I agree, this thread is an awesome discussion and I'm awed by the insights people are willing to share here. 

[nfreeman]

You'll recall in season 1 after Jimmy and Chuck met with Sandpiper's lawyers and Chuck demanded $20m to settle, that night, while Jimmy was asleep, Chuck stepped outside to make a call. Thinks about that. Chuck steps OUTSIDE to use an electronic device. Such was his level of moitvation. Turns out he was calling Howard to tell him to cut Jimmy out of the case and deny him a position at HHM. The next day at his triumphant return to the HHM offices, Howard offers Jimmy the finder's fee and Chuck acts like he's surprised and hurt by Howard's dismissal of Jimmy when it was he who contrived to arrange it that way. Talk about a slippery manipulation. This was all revealed by Chuck to Jimmy later that evening. If that's not sabotage, I don't know what is. 

 

All this after Jimmy worked his ass off for a degree while working in the mail room and after all his hustle to land one of the biggest class action suits in New Mexico history. 

 

Chuck also was complicit in Kim's exile to the documents room in the basement at HHM earlier this season. 

 

I believe Chuck was willing to send Jimmy to jail because when Kim suggested that if the story Chuck was telling about the forgery was true, then Jimmy would be arrested for fraud, forgery, "even breaking and entering." Chuck says, "I don't like it any more than you do, but the facts are the facts." Chuck also went to great lengths to find the copy center and interrogate the store manager; first by sending Ernie and then risking his very health by leaving his comfort zone to question the store manager in person. So yeah, I think Chuck was hell bent on getting Jimmy arrested and charged. 

 

Let's face it, Chuck, while possessing many admirable and sympathetic qualities, is not above hurting a loved one out of ego and jealousy. 

 

By taking the nursing home case from Jimmy and giving it to HHM while (initially) locking Jimmy out of it, perhaps? Kim & Howard were the ones that got Jimmy back in on that.

 

Not saying that Chuck didn't have good reason to try to keep Jimmy away from major cases, but actively keeping him away could be considered sabotaging it.

 

He also, if he wanted to see his brother succeed, could have pulled some strings to try to get him into the DA's office rather than let him founder around in a broom closet behind a manicure shop. I would expect that Jimmy would have played it straight there (& flat out would've hated the job). As far as we know, at present, he did play it straight while in the mailroom.

 

Chuck sees the world through such a peculiar perspective. Will be interesting to see more of the backstory get revealed to see how he came to see the world as he does. But w/ that perspective, he thinks his brother is dangerous to those around Jimmy and seems to feel it's his duty to reveal the danger. And that does end up sabotaging Jimmy. Not saying whether that's a good or a bad thing in the grand scheme. Guess it's a good thing because w/out Saul, we never get Breaking Bad to hit in full glory. Or, could look at it as bad as it led directly to the demise of 2 really cool characters - Mike & Hank. Grand scheme of things.

 

Too bad for Chuck that Kim started in the mailroom. Had she not pushed on for her JD, maybe Chuck could have kept Jimmy in the mailroom, w/ society out of harm's way, for a few more years.

 

Chuck may have acted in a two-faced manner with Jimmy, but that isn't "sabotaging" Jimmy's legal career.  Jimmy was at all times free to build a legal career -- just not at Chuck's firm.

 

(OTOH, Jimmy forging documents to harm Chuck's client and cause Chuck to lose the client absolutely was "sabotage.")

 

Jimmy's working hard to get his law degree and Kim's exile have nothing to do with any alleged sabotage -- not sure how those are relevant.

 

Is Chuck a tight-ass?  Should he treat Jimmy with more kindness and familial affection?  Absolutely.  But protecting HHR from his destructive little brother, isn't the same as "sabotaging" Jimmy -- even if the effects of protecting HHR were detrimental to Jimmy.

 

We all know guys like Jimmy -- i.e. guys who are loyal and whose hearts are usually in the right place, but who continually screw things up for themselves AND for the people around them.  They are the guys who crack wise to the cop who's pulled over the car with everyone out for a night on the town, resulting in everyone getting arrested, or the guys who shoplift, also resulting in everyone getting arrested, or the guys who start a fight at a party held by a rival school, resulting in beatdowns/arrests, etc.  They're fun, and they'll get out of bed in the middle of a snowy night to pick you up if your car breaks down -- but they'll also keep taking risks with your assets, and you'll end up worse off, and they never learn.

[K-9]

Chuck may have acted in a two-faced manner with Jimmy, but that isn't "sabotaging" Jimmy's legal career.  Jimmy was at all times free to build a legal career -- just not at Chuck's firm.

 

(OTOH, Jimmy forging documents to harm Chuck's client and cause Chuck to lose the client absolutely was "sabotage.")

 

Jimmy's working hard to get his law degree and Kim's exile have nothing to do with any alleged sabotage -- not sure how those are relevant.

 

Is Chuck a tight-ass?  Should he treat Jimmy with more kindness and familial affection?  Absolutely.  But protecting HHR from his destructive little brother, isn't the same as "sabotaging" Jimmy -- even if the effects of protecting HHR were detrimental to Jimmy.

 

We all know guys like Jimmy -- i.e. guys who are loyal and whose hearts are usually in the right place, but who continually screw things up for themselves AND for the people around them.  They are the guys who crack wise to the cop who's pulled over the car with everyone out for a night on the town, resulting in everyone getting arrested, or the guys who shoplift, also resulting in everyone getting arrested, or the guys who start a fight at a party held by a rival school, resulting in beatdowns/arrests, etc.  They're fun, and they'll get out of bed in the middle of a snowy night to pick you up if your car breaks down -- but they'll also keep taking risks with your assets, and you'll end up worse off, and they never learn.

You should review episode 9 from last year. 

 

Chuck has sympathetic qualities, but he's a flawed person. Nothing about him makes me want to snuggle in his space blanket. I seriously doubt Gilligan seeks to portray him as a paragon of virtue. He just isn't.