SwampD Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 The one I posted above. There was a report a week or two ago about players saying during exit interviews last season that they didn't believe Manuel was talented enough. This isn't new. Until I know the names of those players and the "at least two people in the organization" (do janitors and office managers count?), I'm not going to believe some guy that Skypes into an internet sports show and doesn't even know how to use a microphone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Until I know the names of those players and the "at least two people in the organization" (do janitors and office managers count?), I'm not going to believe some guy that Skypes into an internet sports show and doesn't even know how to use a microphone. That was my take on it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Dance Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 You honestly and truly believe that 12 starts in the NFL is enough for a player to prove himself? I'd think even those who hated the EJ pick and don't think he'll ever amount to a decent starter would say that's a pretty ridiculous standard. OK, so 12 starts isn't enough - give us a number. 20? 30? 50? I guess I would be more amenable to giving EJ a little longer to develop IF he showed improvment game-by-game. He's still thowing passes into the outstretched arms of the defensive line. He misses short passes that are supposed to be nearly as safe as a hand-off. You can count on one hand the number of long balls he throws each game. Right now, I'd pencil EJ in as starter for games 1 - 4. If he improves each game, add another game. (If he has a good outing on week one, pencil him in for game 5, etc.) If he whiffs four games straight, bring in the veteran. Frankly, I like the kid - I'd like to see him succeed. But is it fair to the other players on the team (not to mention fans) to suffer through another lousy season just trying to get EJ going? We know this Bills team is not Super Bowl material, but that doesn't mean the players don't want to win (or at least play well enough to win). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 OK, so 12 starts isn't enough - give us a number. 20? 30? 50? I guess I would be more amenable to giving EJ a little longer to develop IF he showed improvment game-by-game. He's still thowing passes into the outstretched arms of the defensive line. He misses short passes that are supposed to be nearly as safe as a hand-off. You can count on one hand the number of long balls he throws each game. Right now, I'd pencil EJ in as starter for games 1 - 4. If he improves each game, add another game. (If he has a good outing on week one, pencil him in for game 5, etc.) If he whiffs four games straight, bring in the veteran. Frankly, I like the kid - I'd like to see him succeed. But is it fair to the other players on the team (not to mention fans) to suffer through another lousy season just trying to get EJ going? We know this Bills team is not Super Bowl material, but that doesn't mean the players don't want to win (or at least play well enough to win). Three years. You evaluate a quarterback midway into his third year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted September 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Three years. You evaluate a quarterback midway into his third year. I wouldn't be shocked at all to see Luck rise to the top of the QB rankings, or at least 2nd, and take home the MVP this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Until I know the names of those players and the "at least two people in the organization" (do janitors and office managers count?), I'm not going to believe some guy that Skypes into an internet sports show and doesn't even know how to use a microphone. Cole works in print media. This is the new world of media. You can be stubborn about it, or you can adapt. Whatever works for you. And I like how anonymous sources are only an issue when people don't like the report. Sources have reported the Pegula buying the Bills stuff and people eat it up as truth... But then they don't like this so they need to know the names. And, for the record, Ike Hilliard was one of the people who said he didn't feel EJ had the talent. He's not on the coaching staff anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Cole works in print media. This is the new world of media. You can be stubborn about it, or you can adapt. Whatever works for you. And I like how anonymous sources are only an issue when people don't like the report. Sources have reported the Pegula buying the Bills stuff and people eat it up as truth... But then they don't like this so they need to know the names. And, for the record, Ike Hilliard was one of the people who said he didn't feel EJ had the talent. He's not on the coaching staff anymore. . uh chief...MANY sources say Pegula is in on the bidding for the Bills. Not just one skype-in report with no name guys that you never hear of. That's my issue. Maybe if he was a reputable source that I'd heard stuff from in the past, or if he had inside connections that I believed, sure. Also, this is the first I'd heard of Ike Hilliard say he felt EJ didn't have the talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Deny deny deny. I get it. But the team's actions certainly don't scream faith in EJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Cole works in print media. This is the new world of media. You can be stubborn about it, or you can adapt. Whatever works for you. And I like how anonymous sources are only an issue when people don't like the report. Sources have reported the Pegula buying the Bills stuff and people eat it up as truth... But then they don't like this so they need to know the names. And, for the record, Ike Hilliard was one of the people who said he didn't feel EJ had the talent. He's not on the coaching staff anymore. What player is going to tell his coach that he believes their QB doesn't have the talent? It's a bullspit, made up story and I don't believe him. Is playing Defense in the NHL that much more nuanced and difficult, that we are willing to give young guys up to 5 years to learn it, yet we want to pull the plug on a guy after ten games at the most difficult position in all of sports, because he hasn't played like pro-bowler? Edited September 3, 2014 by SwampD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Three years. You evaluate a quarterback midway into his third year. So you give a QB 3 years, even if he shows no improvement, that seems like screwing your team over for atleast 2 seasons. That is just criminal :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 So you give a QB 3 years, even if he shows no improvement, that seems like screwing your team over for atleast 2 seasons. That is just criminal :P I think he may have said at one point earlier that it's three years unless it's blatant that he's not starter material earlier. Which I would agree with. I just disagree that it isn't leaning towards blatantly obvious that Manuel doesn't have it so far. He looks terrible, to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I think he may have said at one point earlier that it's three years unless it's blatant that he's not starter material earlier. Which I would agree with. I just disagree that it isn't leaning towards blatantly obvious that Manuel doesn't have it so far. He looks terrible, to me. I also don't care what anyone looks like during preseason games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I also don't care what anyone looks like during preseason games. The team cares, which is what really matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 The team cares, which is what really matters. Yeah, I'm with the group that's not believing in the bleacher report video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Dance Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Three years. You evaluate a quarterback midway into his third year. Shoot, by then the Bills will have moved to Toronto and become the Toros. And I won't care so much how EJ plays.... :rolleyes: Edited September 3, 2014 by Sabre Dance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Cole works in print media. This is the new world of media. You can be stubborn about it, or you can adapt. Whatever works for you. And I like how anonymous sources are only an issue when people don't like the report. Sources have reported the Pegula buying the Bills stuff and people eat it up as truth... But then they don't like this so they need to know the names. And, for the record, Ike Hilliard was one of the people who said he didn't feel EJ had the talent. He's not on the coaching staff anymore. Which people? Who are "they?" Can you demonstrate that the poster you replied to, who didn't believe the bleacher report report, also "ate up" other similarly flimsy reports? If "they" aren't the same "they", then this is a useless, weak, lazy, Harrington-like observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Yeah, I'm with the group that's not believing in the bleacher report video. Wasn't referencing the bleacher report video. Just a general statement. The team cares. And they showed it. Marrone was pissed and had to play the starters in the last game which wasn't what he wanted. They ran rampant looking for a suitable backup QB. They are acting as though they care about the preseason. And they obviously do/should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 OK, so 12 starts isn't enough - give us a number. 20? 30? 50? I guess I would be more amenable to giving EJ a little longer to develop IF he showed improvment game-by-game. He's still thowing passes into the outstretched arms of the defensive line. He misses short passes that are supposed to be nearly as safe as a hand-off. You can count on one hand the number of long balls he throws each game. Right now, I'd pencil EJ in as starter for games 1 - 4. If he improves each game, add another game. (If he has a good outing on week one, pencil him in for game 5, etc.) If he whiffs four games straight, bring in the veteran. Frankly, I like the kid - I'd like to see him succeed. But is it fair to the other players on the team (not to mention fans) to suffer through another lousy season just trying to get EJ going? We know this Bills team is not Super Bowl material, but that doesn't mean the players don't want to win (or at least play well enough to win). I'd like at least two full seasons of starting. I realize how unlikely it is for this to happen, but I don't think it's unreasonable. As far as fairness goes, starting Orton is unfair to fans IMO. The Bills have been without a franchise QB since Kelly, so even longer than the playoff drought. EJ may not be that guy, and it certainly hasn't looked good...however, we know Orton isn't that guy. Maybe he's better than EJ right now and could get the team to 8-8 whereas EJ would be 6-10 (just for illustration, not my actual expectation), but he has NO upside. EJ has upside, even if he's unlikely to realize his potential. Short-term thinking would be the ultimate insult to fans. So you give a QB 3 years, even if he shows no improvement, that seems like screwing your team over for atleast 2 seasons. That is just criminal :P There has to be some happy medium between 3 years of zero improvement, and 12 games, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 To me, two seasons (not necessarily 32 starts) is a good amount for a QB who shows little progress or promise. EJ still has plenty of time to prove people wrong. Chances are that, if Manuel fails early, people will be calling for Orton to start but it would be nearly pointless as the season will be lost if Manuel fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnkirishone Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 What player is going to tell his coach that he believes their QB doesn't have the talent? It's a bullspit, made up story and I don't believe him. Is playing Defense in the NHL that much more nuanced and difficult, that we are willing to give young guys up to 5 years to learn it, yet we want to pull the plug on a guy after ten games at the most difficult position in all of sports, because he hasn't played like pro-bowler? again with the nhl nfl comparison. When the nhl draft is filled with 21 and 22 year olds your comparisons will mean more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 again with the nhl nfl comparison. When the nhl draft is filled with 21 and 22 year olds your comparisons will mean more A valid point. I still think that 10 games and one preseason is not enough time to judge someone at QB in the NFL. FTR, the jury is still out for me on Newton, kapernik, wilson, rg3,... I think they all would have been better served sitting behind a vet for a couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted September 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 A valid point. I still think that 10 games and one preseason is not enough time to judge someone at QB in the NFL. FTR, the jury is still out for me on Newton, kapernik, wilson, rg3,... I think they all would have been better served sitting behind a vet for a couple of years. I disagree with Wilson and Kaepernik. 3 Title games, 2 SB appearances and 1 Championship. I think it's safe to say they're legit starting material. Their defenses are definitely the core of that success, but I doubt they'd be as good as they've been without those qb's. Throw someone like Orton in there and they're 10-6 teams who et knocked out in the 2nd round at best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I disagree with Wilson and Kaepernik. 3 Title games, 2 SB appearances and 1 Championship. I think it's safe to say they're legit starting material. Their defenses are definitely the core of that success, but I doubt they'd be as good as they've been without those qb's. Throw someone like Orton in there and they're 10-6 teams who et knocked out in the 2nd round at best Baltimore won a SB with Dilfer. No world beater he. I'm not saying that all those guys haven't had great some seasons. Let's just see how many are still at that level in a few years. There are many paths to becoming a starting QB. I'm just not convinced that this very recent trend of throwing guys to the wolves is the right way to go. Most of the guys that have been around the longest (and are the best imo) took longer to develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Baltimore won a SB with Dilfer. No world beater he. I'm not saying that all those guys haven't had great some seasons. Let's just see how many are still at that level in a few years. There are many paths to becoming a starting QB. I'm just not convinced that this very recent trend of throwing guys to the wolves is the right way to go. Most of the guys that have been around the longest (and are the best imo) took longer to develop. Dilfer has no relevance in this discussion. The original post mentioned how the modern QB have the talent and the championship pedigree. Dilfer only had the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Dilfer has no relevance in this discussion. The original post mentioned how the modern QB have the talent and the championship pedigree. Dilfer only had the latter. I'm not so sure championship pedigree means all that much in this discussion either. I skimmed through this quickly so I may have missed one, but by my math, there are only 7 superbowl winning QBs in this league right now. Even with Wilson on that list, it is a very old group. If we're going to use that as a criteria for judging a QB, it thins the herd incredibly quickly. edit: Make that 8 superbowl winning QBs. It's been so long that I actually missed Brady when counting those. Edited September 3, 2014 by shrader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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