5th line wingnutt Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I have previously answered those questions in this thread and summarised my opinion with the fact he chose to attend the draft. If he didn't want to be drafted tell the scouts and don't turn up to the combine etc. If he choses to attend those events and attend the draft it means he wants to be drafted, which means he knows what is involved, which means he has an obligation to fulfil his side of the deal. Furthermore, as i said previously, but i will say again for your benefit, every team will ask these guys if they will agree to play for them. Moreover, i really struggle to think that everyone would have the same opinion if it was Grigs or Pysyk or another one of our top prospects. The prospects who have never played a game of AHL or NHL hockey in their life can sign for up to $3million? You think that is too little??? How much should they be allowed to be paid? And first contracts are not voluntary exchanges ever. Most of my friends have graduated this year and most of them have been handed a piece of paper and told to sign it and wave their legal rights to number of hours they can work, and if they refuse, they don't get the job. Moreover, they did not get a choice of starting salary - that was not negotiable. In fairness, their lack of sway is mainly because they are not important and are replaceable, which is not true for hockey prospects Attending and agreeing are not the same. What teams asked Schultz if he wanted to play for them and how do you know this, and under what terms? Everyone hates it when a player bails out, what does this have to do fairness to the player. I do not care about any actual number like your $3M. What is fair to the player is the market rate. Contracts are always voluntary as you can refuse to agree. You take the best available. If you have no special skills the best may not be very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trettioåtta Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Attending and agreeing are not the same. What teams asked Schultz if he wanted to play for them and how do you know this, and under what terms? Everyone hates it when a player bails out, what does this have to do fairness to the player. I do not care about any actual number like your $3M. What is fair to the player is the market rate. Contracts are always voluntary as you can refuse to agree. You take the best available. If you have no special skills the best may not be very good. I disagree, by attending you are agreeing to be considered for the draft. It is an obvious question to ask any prospect? Admittedly this is conjecture, but it seems painfully logical for every team to ask every player they are considering drafting. Very few players in their first 3 yeas have a market value of more than $3 mil. Moreover, the cap on the ELC stops hold outs and limits inflation of contracts, which is bad enough as it is. He has the choice, he can refuse to sign a contract, but seeing as there is a draft, there (normally) is the penalty that you re-enter the draft or have to wait 3 years to become draft ineligible. I really can't believe you are see the NHL draft as victimising the players. Sports is not a normal job ergo the normal rules of 'freedom to chose your initital employer' do not apply, you chose to play the sport. A similar system would be, i applied to university, i got interviewed by a specific college at my university, the university then ranked everyone who applied for my subject (molecular and cellular biochemistry) by ability. The college i had my initial interview at gets "first refusal" of me. I then get an offer (hopefully) from that college/a college. I do not get to pick who gives me an offer (drafts me). I can refuse the offer and not attend the university, or i can accept it and request a transfer once i am in the system (which never happens) or i can complete my degree and then (presuming i want to stay at the uni) apply to a specific college to do a postgrad scheme Very few graduates have 'special skills' that mean they are suited for a job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5th line wingnutt Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I disagree, by attending you are agreeing to be considered for the draft. It is an obvious question to ask any prospect? Admittedly this is conjecture, but it seems painfully logical for every team to ask every player they are considering drafting. Very few players in their first 3 yeas have a market value of more than $3 mil. Moreover, the cap on the ELC stops hold outs and limits inflation of contracts, which is bad enough as it is. He has the choice, he can refuse to sign a contract, but seeing as there is a draft, there (normally) is the penalty that you re-enter the draft or have to wait 3 years to become draft ineligible. I really can't believe you are see the NHL draft as victimising the players. Sports is not a normal job ergo the normal rules of 'freedom to chose your initital employer' do not apply, you chose to play the sport. A similar system would be, i applied to university, i got interviewed by a specific college at my university, the university then ranked everyone who applied for my subject (molecular and cellular biochemistry) by ability. The college i had my initial interview at gets "first refusal" of me. I then get an offer (hopefully) from that college/a college. I do not get to pick who gives me an offer (drafts me). I can refuse the offer and not attend the university, or i can accept it and request a transfer once i am in the system (which never happens) or i can complete my degree and then (presuming i want to stay at the uni) apply to a specific college to do a postgrad scheme Very few graduates have 'special skills' that mean they are suited for a job So if you attend a job fair you agree that some employer there can draft you? When applying for university you apply to those that interest you and pick the best offer. The player in question is doing/did the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trettioåtta Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 So if you attend a job fair you agree that some employer there can draft you? When applying for university you apply to those that interest you and pick the best offer. The player in question is doing/did the same thing. You can't compare a job fair to a draft for obvious reasons. You can dodge a military draft because you feel there are better options out there for you - that is simply how drafts work. Whether they should exist is another debate (although i can't see the counter argument holding water). However, the fact is that the draft does exist, he knew it existed when he attended the draft and met with scouts asking to be drafted. To then turn around and decide he could get better offers is unjust. When you graduate you have not been drafted, so there is not a comparison there - you are not a UFA you are a graduate, they are simply incomparable. He should have played for the ducks or allowed them to trade him because he accepted/requested to be drafted and so should accept the consequences of the situation. I see it as selfish and weak for him to renege on his side of the agreement of drafting. Once again, if he did not want to be drafted he could have made that clear to all scouts very easily and not turned up to the combine. Moreover, if he wanted to pursue a non-hockey career that would be fine. However, he wants to be a hockey player, so he should accept the system. If it is a matter of principle about lack of rights/the unjustness of the draft (which is doubt it is as the team he picked will become good because of the draft) then he should play in the system and once in it he should make changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I suppose having Wayne Gretzky and Paul Coffee call on your behalf helped the oilers out on this one. This team could be scary good in a couple of seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5th line wingnutt Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 You can't compare a job fair to a draft for obvious reasons. What obvious reasons? You can dodge a military draft because you feel there are better options out there for you - that is simply how drafts work. You could not dodge the military draft when I was subject to it without emigrating. Whether they should exist is another debate (although i can't see the counter argument holding water). My argument is exactly that the draft should not exist. Let the free market determine the salary of entering players. However, the fact is that the draft does exist, he knew it existed when he attended the draft and met with scouts asking to be drafted. How do you know he asked to be drafted? Got any actual evidence? To then turn around and decide he could get better offers is unjust. Attendence is not agreement, I cannot stress this enough, it is crucial. When you graduate you have not been drafted, so there is not a comparison there - you are not a UFA (I am a UFA to all employers interested in me) and you are I am a graduate, they are simply incomparable. We finally agree. I was not subject to a draft and he was. The situations are notHe should have played for the ducks or allowed them to trade him because he accepted/requested to be drafted and so should accept the consequences of the situation. I see it as selfish and weak for him to renege on his side of the agreement of drafting. He made no agreement as I understand the term. Once again, if he did not want to be drafted he could have made that clear to all scouts very easily and not turned up to the combine. Moreover, if he wanted to pursue a non-hockey career that would be fine. However, he wants to be a hockey player, so he should accept the system. Why does he have any obligation to a system he had no part in creating? If it is a matter of principle about lack of rights/the unjustness of the draft (which is doubt it is as the team he picked will become good because of the draft) then he should play in the system and once in it he should make changes. Again, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderbread Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I heard Schultz defecates strawberry flavored ice cream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabres13 Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I heard Schultz defecates strawberry flavored ice cream. And shoots rainbows from his eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trettioåtta Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 You can't compare a job fair to a draft for obvious reasons. What obvious reasons? You can dodge a military draft because you feel there are better options out there for you - that is simply how drafts work. You could not dodge the military draft when I was subject to it without emigrating. Whether they should exist is another debate (although i can't see the counter argument holding water). My argument is exactly that the draft should not exist. Let the free market determine the salary of entering players. However, the fact is that the draft does exist, he knew it existed when he attended the draft and met with scouts asking to be drafted. How do you know he asked to be drafted? Got any actual evidence? To then turn around and decide he could get better offers is unjust. Attendence is not agreement, I cannot stress this enough, it is crucial. When you graduate you have not been drafted, so there is not a comparison there - you are not a UFA (I am a UFA to all employers interested in me) and you are I am a graduate, they are simply incomparable. We finally agree. I was not subject to a draft and he was. The situations are notHe should have played for the ducks or allowed them to trade him because he accepted/requested to be drafted and so should accept the consequences of the situation. I see it as selfish and weak for him to renege on his side of the agreement of drafting. He made no agreement as I understand the term. Once again, if he did not want to be drafted he could have made that clear to all scouts very easily and not turned up to the combine. Moreover, if he wanted to pursue a non-hockey career that would be fine. However, he wants to be a hockey player, so he should accept the system. Why does he have any obligation to a system he had no part in creating? If it is a matter of principle about lack of rights/the unjustness of the draft (which is doubt it is as the team he picked will become good because of the draft) then he should play in the system and once in it he should make changes. Again, why? Sorry there was a typo - i meant you can't dodge the draft. The fact of the matter is you can dodge the NHL draft, therefore by attending it and walking up on stage with the team you are agreeing to having been drafted by them. Can you really not see the difference between a draft and a job fair? There is often the military at job fairs, it doesn't mean that attending the job fair means you must be employed by them; whereas if they draft you, it does mean you must attend. Once again, it is worth stressing that the only difference is that you can mis the NHL draft and request not to be drafted, but it does mean you will miss a couple of years of pro-hockey. The players do have some form of choice, you can chose not to sign with the team, however you go back into the draft. I don't like the fact he got around the system through a loop hole. I don't like loop holes letting people weasel out of arrangements. As i said earlier, my point about asking is conjecture, but i don't think it is unrealsitic - why would you not ask the question?? Whether or not the draft should exist is irrelevant, it does. And just because you don't like the fact it does exist, does not give you the right to weasel your way out of the consequences. If you don't like a system you change it, you don't just skip out on it. One might disagree with the amount of money the US government spends on military funds, that doesn't give you the right to find a loop hole to get out of conscription (presuming it still existed and that there was a loop hole). Getting through a loop-hole means whilst you have technically done nothing wrong and have adhered to the letter of the law, you have not adhered to the spirit of the law. He was not subject to the draft - he chose the draft, that is crucial. I am not sure why you stressed you are a graduate, but okay. And you are not a UFA because the term does not exist outside of sport. The agreement is, I accept to be drafted and i accept that i do not get a great choice in the team that will draft me, however, in return i will get a shot to play the sport i love at the highest level and the team will support me in anyway they can. He attended the draft, he accepted the jersey, he accepted the unspoken agreement. Finally, it undermines what others have worked for, you earn the right to be a UFA, it means something in hockey. You earnt your degree, the system is that you need a degree to get a good job, when you finish uni you have the right to pick who employs you. Should someone decide they don't want to go to uni, but they do want the piece of paper that comes with it, then i think that is unfair and undermines what others have worked for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 My argument is exactly that the draft should not exist. Let the free market determine the salary of entering players. The free market is why the NHL Draft exists. The NHL is competing with other sports leagues and literally every other available form of entertainment for people's attention and money in the free market. The league has a vested interest in maintaining parity and, theoretically, allowing all 30 teams to compete. The league (and the sport) doesn't benefit if just a handful of teams signs all the best prospects and all the best free agents. Ask yourself why the draft exists in the first place. And if you think the NHL would be a better and more popular league without the draft, I'd love to know why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5th line wingnutt Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Sorry there was a typo - i meant you can't dodge the draft. The fact of the matter is you can dodge the NHL draft, therefore by attending it and walking up on stage with the team you are agreeing to having been drafted by them. Can you really not see the difference between a draft and a job fair? There is often the military at job fairs, it doesn't mean that attending the job fair means you must be employed by them; whereas if they draft you, it does mean you must attend. Once again, it is worth stressing that the only difference is that you can mis the NHL draft and request not to be drafted, but it does mean you will miss a couple of years of pro-hockey. The players do have some form of choice, you can chose not to sign with the team, however you go back into the draft. I don't like the fact he got around the system through a loop hole. I don't like loop holes letting people weasel out of arrangements. As i said earlier, my point about asking is conjecture, but i don't think it is unrealsitic - why would you not ask the question?? Whether or not the draft should exist is irrelevant, it does. And just because you don't like the fact it does exist, does not give you the right to weasel your way out of the consequences. If you don't like a system you change it, you don't just skip out on it. One might disagree with the amount of money the US government spends on military funds, that doesn't give you the right to find a loop hole to get out of conscription (presuming it still existed and that there was a loop hole). Getting through a loop-hole means whilst you have technically done nothing wrong and have adhered to the letter of the law, you have not adhered to the spirit of the law. He was not subject to the draft - he chose the draft, that is crucial. I am not sure why you stressed you are a graduate, but okay. And you are not a UFA because the term does not exist outside of sport. The agreement is, I accept to be drafted and i accept that i do not get a great choice in the team that will draft me, however, in return i will get a shot to play the sport i love at the highest level and the team will support me in anyway they can. He attended the draft, he accepted the jersey, he accepted the unspoken agreement. Finally, it undermines what others have worked for, you earn the right to be a UFA, it means something in hockey. You earnt your degree, the system is that you need a degree to get a good job, when you finish uni you have the right to pick who employs you. Should someone decide they don't want to go to uni, but they do want the piece of paper that comes with it, then i think that is unfair and undermines what others have worked for. My last post on this: Attending the draft is not an agreement. Going up on stage is not an agreement. Signing a contract is an agreement. What you call a loophole I call playing by the rules, and again, he had no part in making the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5th line wingnutt Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 The free market is why the NHL Draft exists. The NHL is competing with other sports leagues and literally every other available form of entertainment for people's attention and money in the free market. The league has a vested interest in maintaining parity and, theoretically, allowing all 30 teams to compete. The league (and the sport) doesn't benefit if just a handful of teams signs all the best prospects and all the best free agents. Ask yourself why the draft exists in the first place. And if you think the NHL would be a better and more popular league without the draft, I'd love to know why. OK last post and this time I really mean it. :lol: The league does have a vested interest. So do veteran players. This is precisely why I am arguing that entering players are getting less than market value. Nowhere have I argued that the NHL would be better or more popular under any particular set of labor rules. I have only argued that draftees are constrained by a system that they had no say in creating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I can only imagine a world where $675,000 is tough if I make it big at age 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 or whatever, and $67,500 is the alternative at that same age. Good Lord. What suffering! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I once saw Justin Schultz scissor kick Angela Lansberry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I hear he can kick Chuck Norris' ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Justin Schultz's family crest is a picture of a barracuda eating Neil Armstrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Justin Schultz's family crest is a picture of a barracuda eating Neil Armstrong. Meanwhile, Luke Schenn's family crest is a picture of Brian Burke eating Colby Armstrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Meanwhile, Luke Schenn's family crest is a picture of Brian Burke eating Colby Armstrong. :clapping: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Now that the decision is made can we close this thread so that I can stop wanting to drive a railroad spike into my skull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Now that the decision is made can we close this thread so that I can stop wanting to drive a railroad spike into my skull? No. But can someone ship a railroad spike to Roch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 No. But can someone ship a railroad spike to Roch? I'll just go steal one from the bridge at Letchworth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 No. But can someone ship a railroad spike to Roch? You want a rail spike, a screw spike, or a fang bolt? (Me, I'd go w/ the fang bolt, but that's just me.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Schultz once won a hockey game with his game face alone He can give girls pleasure, with but a touch He once bitch slapped, Chuck Norris' Mom He can make Lucic, fight himself he is the most overrated prospect on this board, stay delusional my friends Shultz can out rap battle slim shady When he eats suicide wings, the wings cry He once used his hockey stick to bring about world peace When god prays, he prays to justin schultz he is the most overrated prospect discussed on this board, stay delusional my friends He trains Seal Team Six during the off season When bin laden went into hiding, he was hiding from Justin Schultz He doesn't dodge bullets, bullets dodge him He traveled through time to beat up the Myans, because the world will end only when he allows it you don't draft justin schultz, he drafts you... he is the most overrated prospect discussed on this board, stay delusional my friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 GM Jay Feaster: "The fact that he’s now up the road, he’s just joined the mortal-enemies list, that’s all.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 GM Jay Feaster: "The fact that he’s now up the road, he’s just joined the mortal-enemies list, that’s all.” Jay Feaster's worst mortal enemy is still Jay Feaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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