bunomatic Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Unfortunately in a sport that celebrates aggression and where success is the only goal with the reward being your job you will never get respect between players league wide. There will be some that can walk the line but the majority are just trying to hang onto jobs which will lead to stepping over that line. Asking players to respect each other in such an aggressive game is like asking the coaches not to coach defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korab rules Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 I'll open up the conversation that most probably don't want to have. Are we approaching the point where the fighting ban needs to happen? With the backlash in the sports community against brain injuries, it's only a matter of time. Now I know that some will mention the self-policing aspect of fighting and I completely understand that, but it seems like the vast majority of fights lately are of the 20 second choreographed dancing with the stars routine variety. What does it really add to the game at this point? A fighting ban doesn't have to mean fighting completely disappears, all it would have to be is an automatic game misconduct when a fight occurs. And back to the self-policing. That is the thing that is needed the most. The players need to learn how to respect each other and not go for the kill shot whenever they get the chance. The league also needs to actually start enforcing their own rules (please Shanny, get things right). The culture of the game (and football too) is really going to need a major change over the next 10-15 years. Let's hope they realize it. A fighting ban? Not while boxing still exists and MMA is growing like gangbusters every day. Those guys take far more shots than the average NHL player. Here are the fighting leaders from last year: player home away total fights George Parros 16 11 27 Zenon Konopka 13 12 25 Jared Boll 12 11 23 Kyle Clifford 9 9 18 Brandon Prust 11 7 18 B.J. Crombeen 9 8 17 Derek Dorsett 12 5 17 Cam Janssen 6 11 17 Cody McCormick 6 10 16 Brad Staubitz 7 8 15 Kevin Westgarth 9 6 15 Matt Hendricks 9 5 14 Cody McLeod 8 6 14 Shawn Thornton 5 9 14 Paul Bissonnette 4 9 13 Daniel Carcillo 6 7 13 David Clarkson 8 5 13 Deryk Engelland 5 8 13 Matt Martin 4 9 13 Colton Orr 8 5 13 The average number of fights per game was almost exactly .5, and the percentage of games with fights was 37.24%. As we all know from watching Kaleta, very few punches land in a fight. They may take 2 or 3 shots of any significance. Most are glorified wrestling matches. I'm not saying that fighting is good for players, but to suggest that fights are so bad for players that fighting should be banned from the game is a bit of a stretch. Fighting overall is down in the league from its high point in the 80's and 90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 As we all know from watching Kaleta, very few punches land in a fight. They may take 2 or 3 shots of any significance. As long as you don't count this one. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-j25y0Mkxk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 A fighting ban? Not while boxing still exists and MMA is growing like gangbusters every day. Those guys take far more shots than the average NHL player. Here are the fighting leaders from last year: player home away total fights George Parros 16 11 27 Zenon Konopka 13 12 25 Jared Boll 12 11 23 Kyle Clifford 9 9 18 Brandon Prust 11 7 18 B.J. Crombeen 9 8 17 Derek Dorsett 12 5 17 Cam Janssen 6 11 17 Cody McCormick 6 10 16 Brad Staubitz 7 8 15 Kevin Westgarth 9 6 15 Matt Hendricks 9 5 14 Cody McLeod 8 6 14 Shawn Thornton 5 9 14 Paul Bissonnette 4 9 13 Daniel Carcillo 6 7 13 David Clarkson 8 5 13 Deryk Engelland 5 8 13 Matt Martin 4 9 13 Colton Orr 8 5 13 The average number of fights per game was almost exactly .5, and the percentage of games with fights was 37.24%. As we all know from watching Kaleta, very few punches land in a fight. They may take 2 or 3 shots of any significance. Most are glorified wrestling matches. I'm not saying that fighting is good for players, but to suggest that fights are so bad for players that fighting should be banned from the game is a bit of a stretch. Fighting overall is down in the league from its high point in the 80's and 90's. At least you nailed the fact that it has become a glorified sideshow. It's embarrassing to watch that crap and it needs to go. That should be the first step in correcting the culture where it is perfectly acceptable to mindlessly attack someone else's head. And does boxing still exist? I hadn't noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 The average number of fights per game was almost exactly .5, and the percentage of games with fights was 37.24%. As we all know from watching Kaleta, very few punches land in a fight. They may take 2 or 3 shots of any significance. Most are glorified wrestling matches. I'm not saying that fighting is good for players, but to suggest that fights are so bad for players that fighting should be banned from the game is a bit of a stretch. Fighting overall is down in the league from its high point in the 80's and 90's. For awhile there it seemed like at least one player each year was injured with a broken orbital bone. I find it hard to believe that punches that break bone structure aren't also causing concussions. I think these heavyweights are being concussed and aren't getting it dealt with. I think the game is changing on its own. Players with nothing to offer except size and ferocity without gloves are going the way of the dinosaur right now. It wouldn't suprise me to see a fighting ban in the future (it would disappoint me however), but I don't think it'll need to happen. I think we are getting close to a time wehere Cody McCormick will be about as big and goonish as we see in the league. Players like Asham and Lucic will replace the heavyweights, guys who can actually contribute with their gloves on. And as a result, injuries, concussions, etc will be fewer and farther between and the league won't have to deal with news stories like the one you linked to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielSabre Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 I agree that fighting isn't so much a necessary part of the sport any more, most intimidation is done via bigger players and crunching, if legal, hits. People like Chara and Hatcher have had far more effect at intimidation. Players like Kaleta have more effect when their zooming around hitting everything in sight than when their fighting. Well imho anyway, I could be well off base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielSabre Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 At least you nailed the fact that it has become a glorified sideshow. It's embarrassing to watch that crap and it needs to go. That should be the first step in correcting the culture where it is perfectly acceptable to mindlessly attack someone else's head. And does boxing still exist? I hadn't noticed. Boxing is still quite big over here, mainly angry Russians vs people who failed the UK education system. MMA is a ###### global phenomenon, stupid mindless violent bastards. I don't believe that headshots and fighting are one and the same though, headshots need to be tackled in their own sense. Massive suspensions and wages docked for headshots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 I would bet more than anything that it has nothing to do with hockey. I'm sure there are plenty of players now who suffer from depression just the same as any regular guy on the street. Only difference is what they do for a living. Some random person offing themselves isn't news. And with all the drugs out there now to "treat" it, I bet guys from decades passed may have done similar things instead of just going into seclusion, becoming drunks, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Boxing is still quite big over here, mainly angry Russians vs people who failed the UK education system. Rocky 4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Boxing is still quite big over here, mainly angry Russians vs people who failed the UK education system. MMA is a ###### global phenomenon, stupid mindless violent bastards. Human ###### fights (don't get excited chz, that's not what I mean) Edit: I had a feeling that would get filtered. So I guess I have to say rooster fights instead. I don't believe that headshots and fighting are one and the same though, headshots need to be tackled in their own sense. Massive suspensions and wages docked for headshots. I don't know how they can go after head shots and not go after fighting. There's no more intentional shot to the head than a punch. Boxing may wind up getting away with it since that's the exact definition of the sport, but not hockey. D4rk, you may be right that it has nothing to do with hockey, but that's not a chance they can take anymore. With all the signs starting to point towards increased incidence of CTE in football players (and soon enough, hockey players), they can't ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Along these lines Marc Savard is out for next season and is haveing trouble recouping from post-concussion syndrome: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=374868 One has to wonder about these three Sidney Crosby and guys like Tim Connolly's long term health physically and mentally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Human ###### fights (don't get excited chz, that's not what I mean) Edit: I had a feeling that would get filtered. So I guess I have to say rooster fights instead. I don't know how they can go after head shots and not go after fighting. There's no more intentional shot to the head than a punch. Boxing may wind up getting away with it since that's the exact definition of the sport, but not hockey. D4rk, you may be right that it has nothing to do with hockey, but that's not a chance they can take anymore. With all the signs starting to point towards increased incidence of CTE in football players (and soon enough, hockey players), they can't ignore it. Agreed. It can't be ignored. I'm just not convinced it's because these guys were fighters or anything. I bet there were definitely times when guys like Malarchuk and Fleury gave it serious thought and they weren't boxing on ice. They simply suffered (and probably still do suffer) from depression and substance abuse issues as a result of well...traumatic life occurrences. I hope guys like Olli Jokinen, Dany Heatley and Matt Barnaby are being given proper attention as well. Three suicides in a year is alarming though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Agreed. It can't be ignored. I'm just not convinced it's because these guys were fighters or anything. I bet there were definitely times when guys like Malarchuk and Fleury gave it serious thought and they weren't boxing on ice. They simply suffered (and probably still do suffer) from depression and substance abuse issues as a result of well...traumatic life occurrences. I hope guys like Olli Jokinen, Dany Heatley and Matt Barnaby are being given proper attention as well. Three suicides in a year is alarming though. I'm glad you mentioned that 3rd suicide because many seem to overlook Cavanagh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 I'm glad you mentioned that 3rd suicide because many seem to overlook Cavanagh. I'll admit I had to google him just now. That would actually make it four deaths this year then, not just in the offseason. And an interesting case of a player with pre-existing mental illness, who was in a position of uncertainty in his career. But it very well could have had nothing to do with hockey. Either way, any loss of a talented player is huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 A fighting ban because 3 or 4 guys out of how many retired and active players decide to off themselves? Suicide was the 11th leading cause of death in the United States (year 2000) It was the 8th leading cause of death for males (year 2000) 73% of all suicide deaths are white males (year 2000) Rate: Non-Hispanic Whites — 13.5 per 100,000 (year 2007) depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors Should we also propose padded boards, no blades, and squishy balls instead of pucks? How about dulling the blades, and wearing puffy gloves? Because as a demographic, you'd think more hockey players would be offing themselves, instead of only a few now and then. Statistically, these suicides mean nothing. Not to come off (too) cold, of course, as any death is tragic in some way. But, let's not jump with our hearts in our hands to change a game because the news stories touch a nerve. Have hockey players historically been suicidal? The game has been around a Looooooooooonnnnng time now and hasn't changed much fundamentally. Have there been self-offing "epidemics" frequently (enough) in the past? If not, then it's not the game, it's something else. Like this crap economy, or our deprived, materialistic and shallow, downward-spiraling western culture. These people aren't living in some theoretical, hockey-board-interested vacuum. Head injuries can lead to depression, but hockey players aren't the only people suffering head injuries, and they're not the only people killing themselves. And not all hockey players who have suffered head injuries are depressed, or are killing themselves. Sorry, rambling thoughts, but the whole idea that a few outliers need to force the hand of the majority drives me f**king crazy. That thinking has caused enough problems on this planet lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwmann2 Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 They say these things happen in 3's. So sad. All so young too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 CBC reporting death as "accidental". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 CBC reporting death as "accidental". WTF? With all the reports of him hanging himself? Either the hanging reports are wrong or this dude had some creepy ways of getting off. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 WTF? With all the reports of him hanging himself? Either the hanging reports are wrong or this dude had some creepy ways of getting off. :unsure: See Keith Carradine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 WTF? With all the reports of him hanging himself? Either the hanging reports are wrong or this dude had some creepy ways of getting off. :unsure: http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/CBC-s-P-J-Stock-Wade-Belak-not-a-suicide-but-a?urn=nhl-wp11744 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/CBC-s-P-J-Stock-Wade-Belak-not-a-suicide-but-a?urn=nhl-wp11744 Well, who am I to judge? :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 See Keith Carradine David Carradine. Well, who am I to judge? :blink: I'm going to go for it: While this death is tragic, if this latest guess is correct, this death is also stupid (as was Carradine's). Autoerotic asphyxiation is about as smart as Russian roulette. That's not judging a person's sexual preferences (and we don't know if that was what happened, we're all surmising based upon PJ Stock's comment and a twitter post); that's pointing out a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 It's almost better off being suicide instead of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 David Carradine. Yah him... Grasshopper.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHAAAUGHT!!! Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 David Carradine. I'm going to go for it: While this death is tragic, if this latest guess is correct, this death is also stupid (as was Carradine's). Autoerotic asphyxiation is about as smart as Russian roulette. That's not judging a person's sexual preferences (and we don't know if that was what happened, we're all surmising based upon PJ Stock's comment and a twitter post); that's pointing out a fact. We all learned a very important lesson here: never get autoerotic alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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