The Official Beer Appreciation Thread

[Claude_Verret]

Here's something interesting that I found while googling around the intertubes.  BJCP score sheets for commercial examples of all the various styles, scored by BJCP Grand Master VII judge Gordon Strong.  It's a good example of how all beer has it's place when only judged on the merits of the style category.... Miller Lite for example gets a 43/50, PBR a 45/50, Genny Cream Ale 43/50, Pliny The Elder 50/50!

 

http://www.bjcp.org/course/ClassicStyles.php

 

 

 

 

[inkman]

You lack compete.

????

[Weave]

For their standard beers I tend to agree, where Southern Tier stands out in my opinion is with their bigger styles like the 2X series, Unearthly IPA etc.  Of course those are beers I wouldn't drink very often even if they were readily available to me here in NC, but they are definitely elite IMO.

 

Yeah.  That's where tastes and opinion come in.  I think ST does a better job with their pales than they do with their bigger beers.  There are several much better examples of the style in their 2X series IMO (Bells Two Hearted vs. 2xIPA for example).  And their really big stouts and Pumpking are way too cloying for me.  I appreciate their lower ABV styles much more than their higher ABV styles.  I just think that plenty other breweries do the higher ABV stuff better.

[TrueBlueGED]

Yeah. That's where tastes and opinion come in. I think ST does a better job with their pales than they do with their bigger beers. There are several much better examples of the style in their 2X series IMO (Bells Two Hearted vs. 2xIPA for example). And their really big stouts and Pumpking are way too cloying for me. I appreciate their lower ABV styles much more than their higher ABV styles. I just think that plenty other breweries do the higher ABV stuff better.

I will not allow you to besmirch Pumking's honor!

[sabills]

I will not allow you to besmirch Pumking's honor!

*fingers in ears* la la la. Not hearing Pumking yet. Want to enjoy my summer. la la la.

 

Speaking of beer in Summer, consider this your official invite:

 

Edited July 31, 2015 by sabills

[Claude_Verret]

Yeah.  That's where tastes and opinion come in.  I think ST does a better job with their pales than they do with their bigger beers.  There are several much better examples of the style in their 2X series IMO (Bells Two Hearted vs. 2xIPA for example).  And their really big stouts and Pumpking are way too cloying for me.  I appreciate their lower ABV styles much more than their higher ABV styles.  I just think that plenty other breweries do the higher ABV stuff better.

 

Absolutely agree with personal taste and all that, but to hold the 2XIPA up to Two Hearted is like holding Two Hearted up to Pliny.  They're all just a notch above the other in my book.  I don't think any competent beer person would call you completely nuts if you tried to include southern Tiers IPA's towards the top of the always crowded American IPA/double IPA category.  

[Weave]

Absolutely agree with personal taste and all that, but to hold the 2XIPA up to Two Hearted is like holding Two Hearted up to Pliny. They're all just a notch above the other in my book. I don't think any competent beer person would call you completely nuts if you tried to include southern Tiers IPA's towards the top of the always crowded American IPA/double IPA category.

You used the word elite. None of their beers hit that threshold imo. Two Hearted and Torpedo are in the same class and are cleaner, more hop defined examples IMO. And i think the same holds throughout their lineup.

 

ST makes very solid beers. I just cant go as far as to say they are terribly creative or at the top of their class. They really need to rotate their stuff out and create some new recipes to replace them.

[Claude_Verret]

They do have elite beers in my opinion. Their imperial coffee stout IIRC in their 2x series and unearthly DIPA are certainly elite IMHO. No brewery has great beers across their whole lineup outside of Wicked Weed.

[LTS]

I will not allow you to besmirch Pumking's honor!

 

I run some blind tastings with some beer industry people (distributors, reps, master brewers, etc.). The only thing people know are the style they are tasting, they have no idea what beers have been selected.  Pumking ranked at the very bottom by everyone.  It's an absolutely hideous beer.  To a person everyone poured the remaining sample out rather than finish it.  The second lowest?  Warlock.  

 

Absolutely agree with personal taste and all that, but to hold the 2XIPA up to Two Hearted is like holding Two Hearted up to Pliny.  They're all just a notch above the other in my book.  I don't think any competent beer person would call you completely nuts if you tried to include southern Tiers IPA's towards the top of the always crowded American IPA/double IPA category.  

 

ST IPA is mediocre.  Unearthly used to be something special but there are plenty of DIPAs produced now that beat the snot out of it.  The 2X Milk Stout was one of the worst beers I ever tasted. Just tasted Sonnet... didn't fair well in the blind tasting either for a saison.  If you like the ST beers that's cool.. but I just can't get there.

 

They do have elite beers in my opinion. Their imperial coffee stout IIRC in their 2x series and unearthly DIPA are certainly elite IMHO. No brewery has great beers across their whole lineup outside of Wicked Weed.

 

Other breweries that I think are at the top of the game across the board:  Firestone Walker, Allagash, and The Bruery. I might also throw Three Floyd's in there as well.  I've not had everything I could from Kuhnhenn's (MI) but everything I have had has been incredible.  I think there are a few others out there that probably come close that might be smaller.

[Claude_Verret]

Here's the thing about ST IPA, #1 its been a few years since I've had one,#2 every Tom, dick and Harry who has opened a craft brewery in the last five years has an IPA and some if not most are truly bad. You'll get no argument from me that it's not the cream of the crop,but its certainly in the top quartile unless they've completely lost what they had.

 

LTS aren't you the one who doesn't like Pliny?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Claude_Verret

[LTS]

Here's the thing about ST IPA, #1 its been a few years since I've had one,#2 every Tom, dick and Harry who has opened a craft brewery in the last five years has an IPA and some if not most are truly bad. You'll get no argument from me that it's not the cream of the crop,but its certainly in the top quartile unless they've completely lost what they had.

 

LTS aren't you the one who doesn't like Pliny?

 

I like Pliny.  However, I am not going to tell you that it is every bit as good as the hype it gets.  I would say the same about Heady Topper.  

 

And I agree, most IPAs are truly bad.  You also have to account for the variations.. is it West Coast or East Coast, etc.  Now there's also the IPAs focused on New Zealand hops as well.  ST IPA is a decent IPA.  But I'll drink Union Jack from Firestone Walker all day long before I touch ST.  I'm not hating on people who like it.

 

One item that has messed with a lot of brewers is the contracts for hops and whether or not they secure them or have to alter recipes.  There are a lot of IPAs out there that have altered recipes due to hop shortages, contracts, etc.  People don't always notice it.

[That Aud Smell]

I feel like I know enough to know that it's a bit of folly to get into these angels-on-a-head-of-a-pin debates concerning which regional craft brewers are, in fact, making excellent IPAs (or beers). 

 

The point about the hop supply issues is a good one. I've heard from small batch commercial brewers themselves that this is a huge issue.

 

And at the risk of running afoul of the point set forth immediately above: The ST IPAs I've had this summer have not been in keeping with my memory of how much I enjoyed this beer in the first few years when it became my go-to IPA.

 

I like Pliny.  However, I am not going to tell you that it is every bit as good as the hype it gets.  I would say the same about Heady Topper.  

 

Dude. C'mon. Those are two irredoubtably (wait, didn't someone name their beer that?) exceptional IPAs.

[LTS]

I feel like I know enough to know that it's a bit of folly to get into these angels-on-a-head-of-a-pin debates concerning which regional craft brewers are, in fact, making excellent IPAs (or beers). 

 

The point about the hop supply issues is a good one. I've heard from small batch commercial brewers themselves that this is a huge issue.

 

And at the risk of running afoul of the point set forth immediately above: The ST IPAs I've had this summer have not been in keeping with my memory of how much I enjoyed this beer in the first few years when it became my go-to IPA.

 

 

Dude. C'mon. Those are two irredoubtably (wait, didn't someone name their beer that?) exceptional IPAs.

 

Don't mistake my comments as saying they are not good.  They are not worth the hype.  People hold Pliny and Heady Topper to a different standard based on the scarcity of obtaining them. There are plenty of IPAs out there that can easily stand up to both of them.  The definition of over-hyped.

 

You know what's funny is that people (not saying anyone here) used (and some still do) to rip on Lagunitas for their use of hop extract oil in Hop Stoopid.  They said it was cheating.  However, along comes Heady Topper and boom.. the message changes.  My favorite part of Heady Topper is the insistence of drinking it from the can.

 

Anyway, I think what happens is the more you taste the more you become aware of the shortcomings in other products.  If your first taste of an IPA was Dundee IPA  and then you went to ST IPA you'd likely be dancing in the streets.  You give it a few years and try a bunch of other IPAs and you begin to notice things that don't quite hold up anymore in ST IPA. ST IPA might have changed a bit, but so too have your tastes, and your experience with the style.

[That Aud Smell]

Don't mistake my comments as saying they are not good.  They are not worth the hype.  People hold Pliny and Heady Topper to a different standard based on the scarcity of obtaining them. There are plenty of IPAs out there that can easily stand up to both of them.  The definition of over-hyped.

 

You know what's funny is that people (not saying anyone here) used (and some still do) to rip on Lagunitas for their use of hop extract oil in Hop Stoopid.  They said it was cheating.  However, along comes Heady Topper and boom.. the message changes.  My favorite part of Heady Topper is the insistence of drinking it from the can.

 

Anyway, I think what happens is the more you taste the more you become aware of the shortcomings in other products.  If your first taste of an IPA was Dundee IPA  and then you went to ST IPA you'd likely be dancing in the streets.  You give it a few years and try a bunch of other IPAs and you begin to notice things that don't quite hold up anymore in ST IPA. ST IPA might have changed a bit, but so too have your tastes, and your experience with the style.

 

Excellent stuff - thanks.

 

I think what you're saying is right about Pliny and Heady: Limited availability creates a value-added mystique that has nothing to do, strictly speaking, with how the beer drinks, tastes.

 

But I will admit: That mystique stuff can be fun, too. The experience of enjoying a beer doesn't happen in a vacuum. If you were to travel to VT specifically to get Heady, and then you were kicked back in some bucolic setting enjoying your booty --

 

 

that might make you swear it's the best IPA in the world.

 

Similar sentiments could apply to Pliny -- 

 

 

Um. Well, you get the idea.

 

I hadn't really considered the extent to which my dabbling in other IPAs has, over time, changed my experience with the ST IPA. I do think they've had to modify the ingredient list. Probably both factors are in play.

 

P.S. Dundee IPA? I'm gonna say Ew. I haven't had a Dundee that I've enjoyed. They're stuck somewhere between macro and micro, and me no likey.

[sabills]

I love Heady. It hits every note just right for me.

[Claude_Verret]

I get the mystique sentiment with Pliny ( I haven't yet had a Heady Topper), but I just think in Pliny's unique case it is most definitely worth the hype IMO.  It really is that well done, and Vinny at RR arguably invented the style with his Blind Pig IPA before he came up with Pliny.  It's been voted the best beer in America seven years in a row by the AHA's Zymurgy magazine readership.  Those folks aren't your average every day hipsters succumbing to the changing winds of hype, instead they are the geekiest of beer geeks who judge with discerning palettes.  But still..different strokes and all that...

 

Out of IPA's that I've had the ones that I'd say are in the same ballpark with Pliny would be Wicked Weed Freak of Nature, Firestone Walker Union/Double Jack and Bell's Two Hearted and even though it was many years ago, I do remember being blown away by ST's Unearthly, but I'll have to try a bottle from the brewery when I'm up at Chautauqua Lake next week.. In the next tier would be Great Divide Hercules, Stone Ruination and Victory Hop Wallop.  Personally I'm not much of a fan of DogFish Head 90 minute as it's too heavy on the crystal malt for my taste. 

[That Aud Smell]

I get the mystique sentiment with Pliny ( I haven't yet had a Heady Topper), but I just think in Pliny's unique case it is most definitely worth the hype IMO.  It really is that well done, and Vinny at RR arguably invented the style with his Blind Pig IPA before he came up with Pliny.  It's been voted the best beer in America seven years in a row by the AHA's Zymurgy magazine readership.  Those folks aren't your average every day hipsters succumbing to the changing winds of hype, instead they are the geekiest of beer geeks who judge with discerning palettes.  But still..different strokes and all that...

 

Out of IPA's that I've had the ones that I'd say are in the same ballpark with Pliny would be Wicked Weed Freak of Nature, Firestone Walker Union/Double Jack and Bell's Two Hearted and even though it was many years ago, I do remember being blown away by ST's Unearthly, but I'll have to try a bottle from the brewery when I'm up at Chautauqua Lake next week.. In the next tier would be Great Divide Hercules, Stone Ruination and Victory Hop Wallop.  Personally I'm not much of a fan of DogFish Head 90 minute as it's too heavy on the crystal malt for my taste. 

 

More good stuff.

 

I haven't tried two of the three mentioned in the first tier above. Must remedy.

 

The Unearthly is excellent. Was? I am concerned about their ingredients having changed, but have not had the Unearthly in a long time, so I'm not sure if I would sense a change in it.

 

I've only tried one in the next tier. Must remedy.

[Cereal]

Wow, all this Asheville talk :) Has anyone ever come across the Root Bar?  Played Root ball?

 

Also, I was near Brussels, Belgium for work and spent three days there this past weekend.  Definitely made the most of it.  I had many good beers... Leffe Blonde, Duvel Triple Hop, Vedett IPA...  Admitedly, I didn't do any research ahead of time in order to create a checklist, kinda just went with it.  Also, patrons frequently had their dogs in the bars over there.

[kas23]

Wow. Of course beer appreciation is very subjective, but the calling out of Sierra Nevada, New Belgium and Southern Tier as of late in here is a head scratcher. The thousands of reviewers on places like Ratebeer.com and beeradvocate definitely are not in agreement, those breweries all produce some world class beers.

I've never seen a beer get a low rating on RateBeer, so I really can't take them seriously. If we want to be a little bit more objective (and I use the term loosely), go on to BA. Now, admittedly, BA over-rates IPAs over beers of other styles. That said, SNs flagship pale ale is getting a 4.06. A 4.06 is not a good rating for a pale ale on BA. That's certainly not a beer I'm going to hunting for.

 

Sure, you can call SN Pale Ale the "standard" for APAs, but that's just because they were a pioneer. Pioneer doesn't equal a good beer. That's like saying Sears is a great department store.

 

Why go out of the way to buy anything from Sierra Nevada when breweries like Stone, Alpine, Deschutes, Ballast Point, Boulevard, etc can easily be had?

 

And New Belgium is definitely a giant leap below SN. Besides Lips of Faith, what exactly are they making well?

[Weave]

IPA's in general are overrated.  After a 15 year build up of more hops and more ABV, I can't get excited about the wave of greatest IPA's.  I've had Heady. It's a great beer.  It's also a fad created by scarcity and the internet.

 

There.  I said it.

[Claude_Verret]

I've never seen a beer get a low rating on RateBeer, so I really can't take them seriously. If we want to be a little bit more objective (and I use the term loosely), go on to BA. Now, admittedly, BA over-rates IPAs over beers of other styles. That said, SNs flagship pale ale is getting a 4.06. A 4.06 is not a good rating for a pale ale on BA. That's certainly not a beer I'm going to hunting for.

 

Sure, you can call SN Pale Ale the "standard" for APAs, but that's just because they were a pioneer. Pioneer doesn't equal a good beer. That's like saying Sears is a great department store.

 

Why go out of the way to buy anything from Sierra Nevada when breweries like Stone, Alpine, Deschutes, Ballast Point, Boulevard, etc can easily be had?

 

And New Belgium is definitely a giant leap below SN. Besides Lips of Faith, what exactly are they making well?

You called them swill, which quite frankly is laughable. Chalk it up to different strokes, but you'll not find agreement among the majority of beer connissuers regarding the offerings from SN and NB.

[darksabre]

IPA's in general are overrated. After a 15 year build up of more hops and more ABV, I can't get excited about the wave of greatest IPA's. I've had Heady. It's a great beer. It's also a fad created by scarcity and the internet.

 

There. I said it.

I like IPA's. But they're the number one beer on my "I don't care what you think about this beer, dude" list. No one ever has an opinion about an IPA that is worth hearing. Any kind of wheat beer comes second. Third is Guinness.

[Weave]

I like IPA's. But they're the number one beer on my "I don't care what you think about this beer, dude" list. No one ever has an opinion about an IPA that is worth hearing. Any kind of wheat beer comes second. Third is Guinness.

 

I like IPA's as well, but they've been done to death. Every beer bar you walk into has 4 or 5 of them on draft, but try to find one decent continental styled lager, or a true porter.

[darksabre]

I like IPA's as well, but they've been done to death. Every beer bar you walk into has 4 or 5 of them on draft, but try to find one decent continental styled lager, or a true porter.

Or a pilsener.

[kas23]

You called them swill, which quite frankly is laughable. Chalk it up to different strokes, but you'll not find agreement among the majority of beer connissuers regarding the offerings from SN and NB.

Humor me though, with the exception of the Lips of Faith series, what do you consider a good beer from NB? I'm curious.

 

And although "swill" is a bit of hyperbole, I don't understand the draw to SN where there are so many better beers out there. I can understand some of SN's barrel-aged offerings, but their pale ales are just plain tired. There are some many better and new hop varieties besides Cascade. Their Hop Hunter was a complete disappointment after so much hype. I don't live in Buffalo anymore, but I know you guys get Sculpin, Flower Power, Jack's Abbey, most beers from Maine (Another One, Mo, Lunch), Firestone, and even Teo-Hearted, so why pick SN?

Edited August 5, 2015 by kas23