deluca67 Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Did anyone else hear this on WGR? According to Hamilton and verified by Quinn the Sabres lost money last season. <_< The Sabres ended the year a plus $4 million. That figure includes the $7 million they received from revenue sharing. :blink: Which means, on their own without the 'NHL Welfare Program' the Sabres lost $3 million. A team that made it to the Con Finals still lost money. How is this possible? :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffalOhio Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 No TV Contract to speak of, and the cheapest ticket prices in the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 The day they open their books to the public is the day I start believing what comes out of their mouths. Just another attempt by Quinny to deflect attention away from his beloved sluggalo. Including 8 lucrative home playoff games, the team still lost money before revenue sharing....RIGHT! <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 The day they open their books to the public is the day I start believing what comes out of their mouths. Just another attempt by Quinny to deflect attention away from his beloved sluggalo. Including 8 lucrative home playoff games, the team still lost money before revenue sharing....RIGHT! <_< Have to agree with Labatt. No way are we picking up Briere's arbitration award, or signing some of these guys to the contracts we've been handing out, if our only profit was from the revenue sharing program. Like Labatt says, until the owners (in any sport, not just the Sabres) open their books to independent auditors, I don't believe a word about how much money they're losing, b/c they all cry poormouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Have to agree with Labatt. No way are we picking up Briere's arbitration award, or signing some of these guys to the contracts we've been handing out, if our only profit was from the revenue sharing program. Like Labatt says, until the owners (in any sport, not just the Sabres) open their books to independent auditors, I don't believe a word about how much money they're losing, b/c they all cry poormouth. For all we know, TG is paying himself a 3 million dollar a year salary and counting that as part of the front office payroll. :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM8-PL16 Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 For all we know, TG is paying himself a 3 million dollar a year salary and counting that as part of the front office payroll. :o if he was smart he would do that, wouldn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 if he was smart he would do that, wouldn't you? As long as he doesn't then come along and cry about how much money he is losing, he can do whatever he wants. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Did anyone else hear this on WGR? According to Hamilton and verified by Quinn the Sabres lost money last season. <_< The Sabres ended the year a plus $4 million. That figure includes the $7 million they received from revenue sharing. :blink: Which means, on their own without the 'NHL Welfare Program' the Sabres lost $3 million. A team that made it to the Con Finals still lost money. How is this possible? :o If the numbers being bandied about are correct (and I have my doubts) it would put the Sabres "hockey related revenues" prior to the post season and prior to revenue sharing at ~$40MM ($37-43MM). This is from the $7MM used to get the Sabres "available team player compensation" up to the "targeted team player compensation" which would have been somewhere between $28MM and $30.2MM (by my best guess). The ATPC is 54% of HRR and the TTPC is a value determined by the league that they hope all clubs will spend to. It cannot be higher than the midpoint of the salary cap band. If the revenue sharing was $7MM as claimed and they would have had a profit of ~600k through the regular season (Larry Quinn's claim towards the end of the season), then that would put total expenses at ~$46MM. The Sabres payroll (including IR) was ~$31MM last year. That puts the Sabres overhead, player benefits, and Amerks costs at ~$15MM. Player benes would be in the $2.2 - $3MM range. Let's say Amerk player costs are $1MM and fees to the Amerks $3MM (probably a high estimate). That leaves overhead (admin salaries, scouting dept, coaches, utilities, debt service, etc.) at $11MM. The costs sound realistic to me, but the revenues seem low. Regular season ticket sales should have been ~$25MM and OLN would have brought in ~$2MM. If NBC / radio / MSG brought in a combined $6MM (probably a low estimate), that says the Sabres only made $7MM in the regular season off concessions, merchandise sales, rink advertising, parking, the Sabres share of non-hockey related activities in the Mmarena, and luxury suites. I find it hard to believe all those sources of revenue brought in less than $200k per game. Granted for HRR, concessions and merchandise sales are netted, but that number still looks small to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckeyebrian Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 The Sabres "losing" money last year can be explained in two words TAX LIABILITY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 If the numbers being bandied about are correct (and I have my doubts) it would put the Sabres "hockey related revenues" prior to the post season and prior to revenue sharing at ~$40MM ($37-43MM). This is from the $7MM used to get the Sabres "available team player compensation" up to the "targeted team player compensation" which would have been somewhere between $28MM and $30.2MM (by my best guess). The ATPC is 54% of HRR and the TTPC is a value determined by the league that they hope all clubs will spend to. It cannot be higher than the midpoint of the salary cap band. If the revenue sharing was $7MM as claimed and they would have had a profit of ~600k through the regular season (Larry Quinn's claim towards the end of the season), then that would put total expenses at ~$46MM. The Sabres payroll (including IR) was ~$31MM last year. That puts the Sabres overhead, player benefits, and Amerks costs at ~$15MM. Player benes would be in the $2.2 - $3MM range. Let's say Amerk player costs are $1MM and fees to the Amerks $3MM (probably a high estimate). That leaves overhead (admin salaries, scouting dept, coaches, utilities, debt service, etc.) at $11MM. The costs sound realistic to me, but the revenues seem low. Regular season ticket sales should have been ~$25MM and OLN would have brought in ~$2MM. If NBC / radio / MSG brought in a combined $6MM (probably a low estimate), that says the Sabres only made $7MM in the regular season off concessions, merchandise sales, rink advertising, parking, the Sabres share of non-hockey related activities in the Mmarena, and luxury suites. I find it hard to believe all those sources of revenue brought in less than $200k per game. Granted for HRR, concessions and merchandise sales are netted, but that number still looks small to me. Phew! Man, I need a break after reading that post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 OK ... I am all for playing amateur GM, and of course I want the team to be financially viable so that it never has to leave Buffalo ... but this is getting way to technical for us to discuss because we simply do not have all the info. We have no idea what their overhead is beyond player payroll, and we have no idea what revenues are aside from guessing at ticket revenue (which is more difficult than ever with all the price changes from game to game and the discount on season tickets) and guessing at their cut of concessions, etc. ... They didn't raise ticket prices, they have more money in the bank than they have in years because of all the season ticket purchases, and that money is collecting interest until they have to write player paychecks in October. In the grand scheme of things, compared to the tens of millions they were losing a few years ago, they are just fine. If Quinn went on the radio and said they were raising prices because they lost money, and trying to scare people into spending money or the team will move, I might cry foul. But he's not doing that, so if he says they lost a little, so be it. if they're OK with it, so am I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Its possible if they are still counting previous debts that TG might have paid to cover the Sabres from the Bankruptcy scare a couple years ago. Theres more expences then just what they pay to their players and alot of overhead the team has to cover so its possible they did lose some money still, but I don't think that if the lost money last year they would be putting the money back into the team like they are doing right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LexLuthor871 Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Have to agree with Labatt. No way are we picking up Briere's arbitration award, or signing some of these guys to the contracts we've been handing out, if our only profit was from the revenue sharing program. Like Labatt says, until the owners (in any sport, not just the Sabres) open their books to independent auditors, I don't believe a word about how much money they're losing, b/c they all cry poormouth. Good post...they all pick up their cue from baseball owners who cry poverty as they laugh all the way to the bank. I guess I probably would do the same thing if I was an owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Did anyone else hear this on WGR? According to Hamilton and verified by Quinn the Sabres lost money last season. <_< The Sabres ended the year a plus $4 million. That figure includes the $7 million they received from revenue sharing. :blink: Which means, on their own without the 'NHL Welfare Program' the Sabres lost $3 million. A team that made it to the Con Finals still lost money. How is this possible? :o How about selling playoff tickets for $20 each? They could have made up that $4mil by charging $40. It still would have been a bargain. Hey, The Sabres chose to keep tickets cheap to sell season tickets this year. Lose money now, maybe make it back in the future. That was their decision. Sabres fans better get used to paying more for tickets in the near future. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 me no likey too much readie :( where's ther gay sabre thread when i need it... :wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted August 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 If the numbers being bandied about are correct (and I have my doubts) it would put the Sabres "hockey related revenues" prior to the post season and prior to revenue sharing at ~$40MM ($37-43MM). This is from the $7MM used to get the Sabres "available team player compensation" up to the "targeted team player compensation" which would have been somewhere between $28MM and $30.2MM (by my best guess). The ATPC is 54% of HRR and the TTPC is a value determined by the league that they hope all clubs will spend to. It cannot be higher than the midpoint of the salary cap band. If the revenue sharing was $7MM as claimed and they would have had a profit of ~600k through the regular season (Larry Quinn's claim towards the end of the season), then that would put total expenses at ~$46MM. The Sabres payroll (including IR) was ~$31MM last year. That puts the Sabres overhead, player benefits, and Amerks costs at ~$15MM. Player benes would be in the $2.2 - $3MM range. Let's say Amerk player costs are $1MM and fees to the Amerks $3MM (probably a high estimate). That leaves overhead (admin salaries, scouting dept, coaches, utilities, debt service, etc.) at $11MM. The costs sound realistic to me, but the revenues seem low. Regular season ticket sales should have been ~$25MM and OLN would have brought in ~$2MM. If NBC / radio / MSG brought in a combined $6MM (probably a low estimate), that says the Sabres only made $7MM in the regular season off concessions, merchandise sales, rink advertising, parking, the Sabres share of non-hockey related activities in the Mmarena, and luxury suites. I find it hard to believe all those sources of revenue brought in less than $200k per game. Granted for HRR, concessions and merchandise sales are netted, but that number still looks small to me. That number may be close. I thought the Jacob's family get half of the concessions? I believe the City and County get some of the parking. Plus, the arena is dark for more then half the year. The fact they lost $3 million came as a shock to me. I thought last season went as well as could be. If they have their best year and still can't make a profit :blink: It would be nice to have the franchise stable incase anything happens to Golisano. It's not like there is a waiting list of Billionaires wanting to own the Sabres. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 That number may be close. I thought the Jacob's family get half of the concessions? I believe the City and County get some of the parking. Plus, the arena is dark for more then half the year. The fact they lost $3 million came as a shock to me. I thought last season went as well as could be. If they have their best year and still can't make a profit :blink: It would be nice to have the franchise stable incase anything happens to Golisano. It's not like there is a waiting list of Billionaires wanting to own the Sabres. :unsure: I know they got the lion's share prior to the bankruptcy, but it was my understanding that the "concession loan" on the Mmarena was paid off when Golisano bought the team. If so, the Sabres should get a reasonably large chunk of the concession profits. I haven't been able to find anything to confirm nor deny the loan being paid off, so I honestly have no idea what percentage of the net that the Sabres get from concessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted August 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 I know they got the lion's share prior to the bankruptcy, but it was my understanding that the "concession loan" on the Mmarena was paid off when Golisano bought the team. If so, the Sabres should get a reasonably large chunk of the concession profits. I haven't been able to find anything to confirm nor deny the loan being paid off, so I honestly have no idea what percentage of the net that the Sabres get from concessions. That was a big point at the time of the sale. Another was the amount of dates the arena is used for. Any idea how many events were held last year. I tell ya Dave. It's great to be talking hockey/Sabres well into August. Agree or disagree it's great. The opening of training camp is just around the corner. ;) :P :D :lol: :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogie Oglethorpe Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 It feels good to see Bills training camp open and the Danny Briere signing be the big news! We've been talking J.P. the last few days and it's not Losman! 2 months from today we'll be talking about the Sabres quieting the Canes fans! Can't wait! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabresince70 Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Without even worrying if they actually made money and are "BS-ing" about the 3mil loss or if they truly lost the $$'s, TG HAS opened his wallet and paid more than anyone here thought he would for the players this year. I'm just glad he did, if he wants it to seem he did it after losing money, so what? If he would have let half this team walk, and claimed he lost money, we would have a reason to care. Let's be honest, since he has bought the team, it has only improved (this isn't a thread about unis). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 I agree completely. Fans should be much less concerned about the business side of sports. I've even argued that all financial information surrounding a team -- revenues, player contracts and the like -- should be kept private. I don't remember fans being this concerned about money in the 70s, 80s or even 90s. When things changed, I don't know, but I blame a lot of it on the advent of fantasy sports. There really are a lot of guys out there who honestly think they could do Darcy's job, and do it better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWarner Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 I've even argued that all financial information surrounding a team -- revenues, player contracts and the like -- should be kept private. and the case for the other side http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/index?&lpos=...&lid=gn_NHL_NHL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 I agree completely. Fans should be much less concerned about the business side of sports. I've even argued that all financial information surrounding a team -- revenues, player contracts and the like -- should be kept private. I don't remember fans being this concerned about money in the 70s, 80s or even 90s. When things changed, I don't know, but I blame a lot of it on the advent of fantasy sports. There really are a lot of guys out there who honestly think they could do Darcy's job, and do it better! I think it changed for a few reasons: Fans started getting more concerned about money whent tickets went from $15 to $75 and teams started selling PSLs for thousands of dollars. They want to know where all that money is going. Also, when storied franchises like the Baltimore Colts and Cleveland Browns moved away from passionate fan bases who sold games out for sweetheart deals in other cities. No one knew anything about finances and fans were blindsided by these moves, so the media started digging for the how and why. It mushroomed from there. Also, we can say it should be kept private, but as soon as either an agent or the team can use the media as leverage in contract negotiations, numbers will be leaked. When Joe Superstar is holding out, and fans start bitching and start calling the owner cheap for not paying him, the team is going to leak the numbers and so everyone knows the Joe is being unreasonable and greedy. Or vice-versa, tha player is going the leak the weak-ass offer to put pressure on the team. No doubt you are right about this: Even if we had NONE of this info, people would STILL think they could do Dacy's job! In fact it would probably be worse, if they did not understand where the team was in relation to the cap, they'd wonder why the Sabres can't keep everyone and trade for Pronger and Sakic too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 There really are a lot of guys out there who honestly think they could do Darcy's job, and do it better! Still hung up on this? Nobody HONESTLY believes they could do Darcy's job better than he can. It's fans being fans. Talking about the players on the team, who should stay, who should go, how much they are worth. etc..., has been around ever since I was a kid and it's probably safe to say, it's always been that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 LB, you must not have any friends or relatives who are obsessed with fantasy sports. These people are deadly serious and scary -- scary bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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