The Players need someone to push them?

[Scottysabres]

I'm questioning heavily Adams decision to "see how it plays out" this season. Clearly change was needed behind the bench, as many of us here on Sabrespace were acutely aware of. Hell, even patient, smart-ass me started a thread to can Granato.

As more and more comments from people within the organization are made publicly, such as Adams "not good enough" and some of the players "we need to be pushed" or "practise was a joke", one thing is becoming abundantly clear, the commitment to winning was not given serious consideration, imho.

We are through the looking glass here people. For myself, I am actually a bit pissed these issues are coming to light. My love for the Sabres, like so many, is life long. To hear these sentiments spoken from inside, ya, I'm f'n pissed it was allowed to fester like this.

[Believer]

37 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

So you started following when the nightmare happened God bless your soul

Big fan back in the early years… Scotty, Gil, Renee et al… Got distracted by demanding career and only checked the standings and didn’t follow the news or stories… Started following the Sabres closely again 20 years ago when I retired.

[GoPuckYourself]

3 hours ago, inkman said:

I agree but wasn’t that what EJ was for?  He was bad and maybe his voice fell on deaf ears but they really need to find the right guys to kick these kids ass.  

Get Garnett Hathaway here and anyone who gets out of line he punches them in the face several times until they learn.

[SDS]

8 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

I'm questioning heavily Adams decision to "see how it plays out" this season. Clearly change was needed behind the bench, as many of us here on Sabrespace were acutely aware of. Hell, even patient, smart-ass me started a thread to can Granato.

As more and more comments from people within the organization are made publicly, such as Adams "not good enough" and some of the players "we need to be pushed" or "practise was a joke", one thing is becoming abundantly clear, the commitment to winning was not given serious consideration, imho.

We are through the looking glass here people. For myself, I am actually a bit pissed these issues are coming to light. My love for the Sabres, like so many, is life long. To hear these sentiments spoken from inside, ya, I'm f'n pissed it was allowed to fester like this.

Alternate scenario: Team finishes on a tear in 22-23 and falls one short point of being in the playoffs. All the talking heads and fans expect another step forward in 23-24. Seeing the continued good fortunes of the team and the players getting more experience, Adams recommends to Pegula that Granato gets extended. After all, it appears that it is coming together. However, the good fortunes stop at the start of 23-24.  By the 20 game mark, maybe Adams is seeing warnings signs? However, the situation was bright just a couple months ago. He is a deliberate guy. Measure twice, cut once. 

Game 40 rolls around. Quinn hurt. Samuelsson hurt. Thompson hurt. Does he go to Pegula and say - never mind... fire Granato? Oof. That is a hard conversation.  Maybe the convo was had? Maybe Terry wanted/needed to give him the season to straighten it out, since he just renegotiated his contract? Maybe the deal was that they would pivot to a better defensive team and then judge the results? Maybe Adams accepted a deal to change from Granato?

Maybe actual human beings are working through this, without the benefit of hindsight, and it isn't just straight negligence because the fanbase has been perpetually mad?

Life has more nuance than black and white interpretations.

[SabreFinn]

21 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

I'm questioning heavily Adams decision to "see how it plays out" this season. Clearly change was needed behind the bench, as many of us here on Sabrespace were acutely aware of. Hell, even patient, smart-ass me started a thread to can Granato.

As more and more comments from people within the organization are made publicly, such as Adams "not good enough" and some of the players "we need to be pushed" or "practise was a joke", one thing is becoming abundantly clear, the commitment to winning was not given serious consideration, imho.

We are through the looking glass here people. For myself, I am actually a bit pissed these issues are coming to light. My love for the Sabres, like so many, is life long. To hear these sentiments spoken from inside, ya, I'm f'n pissed it was allowed to fester like this.

I can only imagine how dissapointed Adams must have been. He rewarded a coach after a good season and then when next season starts they are not ready to compete. And what to do then? I guess the timeline he had set as a GM allowed to watch and see how things develop. But of course he realize that next season will be his last as GM if development doesn't come. Still he doesn't fire Granato until after the season. To me it mens he has a huge amount of faith in the group of players and that he can get the complementary pieces and that they will end the draught next year. 

[Weave]

1 hour ago, SDS said:

Alternate scenario: Team finishes on a tear in 22-23 and falls one short point of being in the playoffs. All the talking heads and fans expect another step forward in 23-24. Seeing the continued good fortunes of the team and the players getting more experience, Adams recommends to Pegula that Granato gets extended. After all, it appears that it is coming together. However, the good fortunes stop at the start of 23-24.  By the 20 game mark, maybe Adams is seeing warnings signs? However, the situation was bright just a couple months ago. He is a deliberate guy. Measure twice, cut once. 

Game 40 rolls around. Quinn hurt. Samuelsson hurt. Thompson hurt. Does he go to Pegula and say - never mind... fire Granato? Oof. That is a hard conversation.  Maybe the convo was had? Maybe Terry wanted/needed to give him the season to straighten it out, since he just renegotiated his contract? Maybe the deal was that they would pivot to a better defensive team and then judge the results? Maybe Adams accepted a deal to change from Granato?

Maybe actual human beings are working through this, without the benefit of hindsight, and it isn't just straight negligence because the fanbase has been perpetually mad?

Life has more nuance than black and white interpretations.

The flaw in your counterpoint is, there was no finish with a flourish in 22-23.  Someone here already did the work to disprove that.  

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, GoPuckYourself said:

Didn't Ruff lose the locker room after Lucic destroyed Ryan Miller? Isn't he the same coach to where Miller was calling out people afterwards? 

Was Ruff supposed to go out there and fight Lucic himself?  

The Sabres had Sekera, Pommer, Gaustad, Vanek, and Myers on the ice.   No one would drop them with Lucic who warded them all off.  

I do not understand what your last sentence means? 

Whatever it was, this incident was a signpost of bad that still haunts this franchise.  

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, SDS said:

Alternate scenario: Team finishes on a tear in 22-23 and falls one short point of being in the playoffs. All the talking heads and fans expect another step forward in 23-24. Seeing the continued good fortunes of the team and the players getting more experience, Adams recommends to Pegula that Granato gets extended. After all, it appears that it is coming together. However, the good fortunes stop at the start of 23-24.  By the 20 game mark, maybe Adams is seeing warnings signs? However, the situation was bright just a couple months ago. He is a deliberate guy. Measure twice, cut once. 

Game 40 rolls around. Quinn hurt. Samuelsson hurt. Thompson hurt. Does he go to Pegula and say - never mind... fire Granato? Oof. That is a hard conversation.  Maybe the convo was had? Maybe Terry wanted/needed to give him the season to straighten it out, since he just renegotiated his contract? Maybe the deal was that they would pivot to a better defensive team and then judge the results? Maybe Adams accepted a deal to change from Granato?

Maybe actual human beings are working through this, without the benefit of hindsight, and it isn't just straight negligence because the fanbase has been perpetually mad?

Life has more nuance than black and white interpretations.

I don't know SDS, I'm listening to what is being said from those within the organization. I'm not saying my feels are completely correct, but oof man, the being pushed and practice atmosphere comments, ya, I'm not thrilled about that.

You are of course correct, hindsight is 20/20. But man, 13 seasons now, players comments like these, where was the urgency from them on the ice? Because they to hold accountability in the outcome. The coach, coaching staff, if it wasn't good enough early on and the season was slipping in to yet another "let's play catch up" mode, which, as we all witnessed and knew, happening in real time, where was the guidance from that coach and coaching staff? Where were the adjustments before it came to that, yet again?

Like I said, it gets under my skin a bit given the full context of the organizations past seasonal patterns. Meh, it is reactionary of course, but I no likey the atmosphere portrayed by some of the comments is all.

[SDS]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

The flaw in your counterpoint is, there was no finish with a flourish in 22-23.  Someone here already did the work to disprove that.  

I have all the data in my front page chart. In the last 12 games they earned 19 points. That is 130 points over 82 games. So... not sure I agree there.

[Weave]

3 minutes ago, SDS said:

I have all the data in my front page chart. In the last 12 games they earned 19 points. That is 130 points over 82 games. So... not sure I agree there.

Ok the data someone else posted used a more reasonable end of the year sample size than 12 games, lol.

[SDS]

3 minutes ago, Weave said:

Ok the data someone else posted used a more reasonable end of the year sample size than 12 games, lol.

If you want 20 games it was a 94 point pace. Would have made the playoffs this season.

[GoPuckYourself]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Was Ruff supposed to go out there and fight Lucic himself?  

The Sabres had Sekera, Pommer, Gaustad, Vanek, and Myers on the ice.   No one would drop them with Lucic who warded them all off.  

I do not understand what your last sentence means? 

Whatever it was, this incident was a signpost of bad that still haunts this franchise.  

So the same goes for Granato then right? 

What don't you get from my last sentence? Ryan Miller was calling out the team in the post game interview after he got ran. All this happened under Ruff's watch. So now because you want Ruff as a HC all the ***** he was let go for didn't happen?

[Pimlach]

Just now, GoPuckYourself said:

So the same goes for Granato then right? 

What don't you get from my last sentence? Ryan Miller was calling out the team in the post game interview after he got ran. All this happened under Ruff's watch. So now because you want Ruff as a HC all the ***** he was let go for didn't happen?

Yes, I recall Miller doing that.  I did not get that from your post though. 

I have no idea if Ruff lost the locker room as a result of that, but probably not.   I don’t understand what any of it has to do with Granato either.  

I actually would prefer Gallant or Berube instead of Ruff as my first choice.  But if Ruff is selected, as I suspect he will be, I won’t hate it.  

[GoPuckYourself]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Yes, I recall Miller doing that.  I did not get that from your post though. 

I have no idea if Ruff lost the locker room as a result of that, but probably not.   I don’t understand what any of it has to do with Granato either.  

I actually would prefer Gallant or Berube instead of Ruff as my first choice.  But if Ruff is selected, as I suspect he will be, I won’t hate it.  

You stated "What was Ruff supposed to do go fight Lucic", correct? So what was Granato supposed to do with our current roster, go out there and show them how to compete? Line up at LW and try to score goals for them? Can't you say this about any coach? 

 

[Pimlach]

30 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

You stated "What was Ruff supposed to do go fight Lucic", correct? So what was Granato supposed to do with our current roster, go out there and show them how to compete? Line up at LW and try to score goals for them? Can't you say this about any coach? 

 

Uh.  A little different circumstances here but ok.  

[GoPuckYourself]

16 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Uh.  A little different circumstances here but ok.  

Ok

[dudacek]

The amount of weight this community still puts on an incident that happened what, 12 years ago - and has happened to many organizations both before and since - is baffling to me.

No, I don’t think this is at all different to Aaron Dell wiping out Drake Batherson, or any other of the countless cheap shots that happen in NHL hockey.

[thewookie1]

I don’t think the players need motivation to play, I think they want guided motivation to help focus their energy. I have never doubted that the players work hard to get better and play in games with energy. I just believe they don’t exactly focus on anything in particular and accomplish nothing because of it.

[SDS]

51 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I don’t think the players need motivation to play, I think they want guided motivation to help focus their energy. I have never doubted that the players work hard to get better and play in games with energy. I just believe they don’t exactly focus on anything in particular and accomplish nothing because of it.

If I was to give an information free guess, I could easily see the following situation. Granato being a development guy, may have been predisposed to a less coach-centric practice and relying on more player-centric.

The best example I have of this would be analogous to the Boy Scouts. If you truly have a boy lead troop, it’s ugly. It’s inefficient. It is often unorganized. It drives adults nuts. But it is essential for the boys to do it themselves and figure it out if you want the boys to learn. Learning is best done by doing and not being told what to do.

In youth soccer, this coaching philosophy is called guided discovery.

This is just a wild ass guess on my part, but that mindset seems plausible to me.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, GoPuckYourself said:

You stated "What was Ruff supposed to do go fight Lucic", correct? So what was Granato supposed to do with our current roster, go out there and show them how to compete? Line up at LW and try to score goals for them? Can't you say this about any coach? 

 

I'd join in and say when during the year did Granato call them out or publicly say they lacked effort? Never. When did he bench big name players who slacked? Never. When did he put them through the ringer in practice and work them into piles of sweat because of their bad effort? Never. It was always "they are learning". 

As for the Lucic incident, yes, it was a huge thing but I would suggest that if one incident like that can break a team, then they were already broken, it just hadn't been made blatantly public yet. 

Same thing could happen today by the way. They had nobody to stand up to Lucic then and we have nobody to stand up to Jeannot, or Olivier, Rempe, even DesLauriers etc. Nobody. In recent memory Maroon ran our goalie when he was in Tampa and we did nothing. Heck, we didn't even stand up to Kucherov. 

It's not the same league, but we are still relatively speaking soft. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, SDS said:

If I was to give an information free guess, I could easily see the following situation. Granato being a development guy, may have been predisposed to a less coach-centric practice and relying on more player-centric.

The best example I have of this would be analogous to the Boy Scouts. If you truly have a boy lead troop, it’s ugly. It’s inefficient. It is often unorganized. It drives adults nuts. But it is essential for the boys to do it themselves and figure it out if you want the boys to learn. Learning is best done by doing and not being told what to do.

In youth soccer, this coaching philosophy is called guided discovery.

This is just a wild ass guess on my part, but that mindset seems plausible to me.

I think your Boy Scout analogy is quite fitting and it really is bad head coaching.

 

[GoPuckYourself]

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'd join in and say when during the year did Granato call them out or publicly say they lacked effort? Never. When did he bench big name players who slacked? Never. When did he put them through the ringer in practice and work them into piles of sweat because of their bad effort? Never. It was always "they are learning". 

As for the Lucic incident, yes, it was a huge thing but I would suggest that if one incident like that can break a team, then they were already broken, it just hadn't been made blatantly public yet. 

Same thing could happen today by the way. They had nobody to stand up to Lucic then and we have nobody to stand up to Jeannot, or Olivier, Rempe, even DesLauriers etc. Nobody. In recent memory Maroon ran our goalie when he was in Tampa and we did nothing. Heck, we didn't even stand up to Kucherov. 

It's not the same league, but we are still relatively speaking soft. 

Granato has said in almost every inteview "they didn't have enough compete", literally after almost every loss where they were terrible in the 1st period. Just so you know I'm not defending Granato at all, he needed to go but this is about the reason Ruff was let go and it was alot of the same as we're talking about here. "Not enough compete", "Accountability" etc. 

Maybe it's time to get the tough guys that we never get so this wont be a problem, seems like a viable solution eh?

[mjd1001]

53 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

Granato has said in almost every inteview "they didn't have enough compete", literally after almost every loss where they were terrible in the 1st period. Just so you know I'm not defending Granato at all, he needed to go but this is about the reason Ruff was let go and it was alot of the same as we're talking about here. "Not enough compete", "Accountability" etc. 

Maybe it's time to get the tough guys that we never get so this wont be a problem, seems like a viable solution eh?

Not sure if this was posted yet....pertains to the conversation and what you just said above...

 

Edited April 19 by mjd1001

[inkman]

41 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Not sure if this was posted yet....pertains to the conversation and what you just said above...

 

Sounds to me like he doesn’t believe in the players.  At least me and Meatballs can agree on that.  All this accountability nonsense, at some point the players have to have personal accountability.  They didn’t because that’s not who they are.  I don’t think a big meany coach is going to change that but here’s hoping.  Unless they actually more on from a few of these guys. 

[Night Train]