John Roth COO of the Sabres is no longer with the organization

[Radar]

The Pegula haters no doubt also blame him for the war in the middle east and that it snows in the winter. 

[...]

14 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I still don't know how you can blame Terry for someone else not being able to keep his schlong in his pants.

I don't understand why you keep distilling the argument down to Bill Clinton levels. The argument is that these people lacked sound judgement in A) complying with the terms of their hiring, and B) an area that is presently socially charged where failure to be mindful of this reality can unnecessarily distract and/or damage the company.

As I tried to explain earlier, poor judgement in such an obvious and easy to process situation likely means poor judgement in less obvious and more difficult situations. Violating the terms of your contract violates trust. Dig? You simply can not have people you can't fully trust being responsible for the well-being of a high-profile, billion dollar plus enterprise.

[Doohickie]

1 minute ago, ... said:

As I tried to explain earlier, poor judgement in such an obvious and easy to process situation likely means poor judgement in less obvious and more difficult situations. Violating the terms of your contract violates trust. Dig? You simply can not have people you can't fully trust being responsible for the well-being of a high-profile, billion dollar plus enterprise.

Right.  I get that.  But if there's no previous indication that Roth (for instance) has exercised poor judgment in the past, why is it Terry's fault?

HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN seems to be the argument.  The truth is, he didn't and when he found out he purged the problem.

[That Aud Smell]

22 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I still don't know how you can blame Terry for someone else not being able to keep his schlong in his pants.

Sophistry.

Terry has by now hired and fired many, many c-level executives. The most recent separations are comical for their timing — these folks were just installed in July.

He’s getting bad outcomes. So it’s more than fair and only logical to look at his processes. And they stink out loud. He can and should and must do better.

[That Aud Smell]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

Right.  I get that.  But if there's no previous indication that Roth (for instance) has exercised poor judgment in the past, why is it Terry's fault?

What’s the due diligence here? Are his c-level hires sitting down for exhaustive personality inventories that are interpreted by experts? Is a private investigator doing a basic workup on them?

Or is he just going with his gut?

[Pimlach]

13 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I still don't know how you can blame Terry for someone else not being able to keep his schlong in his pants.

Well, it takes two to tango, so there is that.  

If Roth and D'Angelo signed an agreement that included no office hanky-panky then they should have honored it, and if they didn't he has every right to fire them and that is a what he should do.  So to your point, Terry did his job.  He probably lost two very talented execs, but he held them accountable so that is good I guess. 

My problem with Terry is the turnover is happening far too often.   There is certainly a lack of stability in his business organization(s).   There are just too many re-orgs for my liking.  Change can be good but constant change just looks like bad leadership, lack of direction, AND disfunction.

Terry gets "blamed" because he brought Roth in to run both the Bills and Sabres and Terry touted his credentials which included his leadership/decision making skills.  What was wrong with the work that Ron Raccuia was doing?   The guy that helps get us the stadium and then gets released right when we get the stadium approval.  He gets replaced by someone with far les sports management experience, who was essentially doing OJT with the Sabres,  - what can go wrong? 

There have been more FO changes in the Pegula era than I can ever recall under Ralph Wilson (Bills) or Seymour Knox (Sabres).  It spells poor management and lack of leadership.  

Keep him away from Beane and Adams - they are competent guys that have serious work to do. 

The one thing I thought that Terry could do was run a well organized, disciplined, and efficient business.  Instead the FO on the business side is always in a state of flux.  These are all people he picked.  

[matter2003]

Sounds like things got a little wild in London between the two...

Guess they must have been listening to The Humpty Dance and they heard the line "I'm a freak...I like the girls with the boom...I once got busy in a Burger King bathroom", but they couldn't find a Burger King so they had to settle for "a Nando's bathroom" and got caught.

Those thin walls in the UK I tell ya...

Edited October 12, 2023 by matter2003

[Standing Room Smoking Cigs]

I understand the reason they had to go. Not defending what all parties did are but in some ways, it was nipping it in the bud. A fling, infatuation is as much as you think it's on the QT, is so apparent to others. Many years ago I went through a thing at work... No one knows we thought, Hah, that was so wrong, everyone knew. It was the aftermath, when things started to sour between us that caused the problem. Our toxicity to each other caused problems to everyone at work around us. That's the problem. I left and she stayed. Funny thing is 15 years later, both in different parts of life got back together. Pegula did the right thing, it's not the passion, it's the aftermath that causes problems in the workplace.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Standing Room Smoking Cigs

[Pimlach]

30 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Right.  I get that.  But if there's no previous indication that Roth (for instance) has exercised poor judgment in the past, why is it Terry's fault?

HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN seems to be the argument.  The truth is, he didn't and when he found out he purged the problem.

He did know him.  Roth was his investment guy at Fidelity.  He actually knew him for quite awhile.  

Terry hired Roth, with no Sports Management experience,  to run the Sabres business.   Then he handed him the Sabres and the Bills only 6 months later.   

He also hired Ted Black, Pat LaFontaine, Joe Battista, among other failed execs - and he embraced and promoted Russ Brandon too. 

Stability is not his thing.  No other Buffalo Sports franchise has had this kind of turnover.  

 

 

[Doohickie]

But there is no indication he was performing poorly at his job.  The affair and job performance are two unrelated items.  He should have known Roth would have an affair?

 

HOW?

[Radar]

36 minutes ago, ... said:

I don't understand why you keep distilling the argument down to Bill Clinton levels. The argument is that these people lacked sound judgement in A) complying with the terms of their hiring, and B) an area that is presently socially charged where failure to be mindful of this reality can unnecessarily distract and/or damage the company.

As I tried to explain earlier, poor judgement in such an obvious and easy to process situation likely means poor judgement in less obvious and more difficult situations. Violating the terms of your contract violates trust. Dig? You simply can not have people you can't fully trust being responsible for the well-being of a high-profile, billion dollar plus enterprise.

As someone who before retirement hired people for my own business and for other businesses I can't say every hire turned out to be the right hire. Someone's moral character particularly unless some known thing is not determined easily. Frankly it's very easy to be anonymously judgemental of others. This sports forum should stick to sports dialogue.

[shrader]

48 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Right.  I get that.  But if there's no previous indication that Roth (for instance) has exercised poor judgment in the past, why is it Terry's fault?

HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN seems to be the argument.  The truth is, he didn't and when he found out he purged the problem.

Terry really needs to stop playing all that Barry White music in every meeting.

[Sidc3000]

Well this is definitely not a sign of a stable organization.  Not good at all  

[Pimlach]

20 minutes ago, Radar said:

As someone who before retirement hired people for my own business and for other businesses I can't say every hire turned out to be the right hire. Someone's moral character particularly unless some known thing is not determined easily. Frankly it's very easy to be anonymously judgemental of others. This sports forum should stick to sports dialogue.

 

I agree with you, it is not easy to hire people and bat 1.000.  That is not realistic that anyone can do that.   However, the FO turnover under Terry is a continuous thing.  It is noticeable when normally it would not be.  

Sabrespace is a Sabres forum and should stick to Sabres dialogue.  This topic is definitely Sabres related.  

 

[That Aud Smell]

29 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

But there is no indication he was performing poorly at his job.  The affair and job performance are two unrelated items.  He should have known Roth would have an affair?

HOW?

 

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

What’s the due diligence here? Are his c-level hires sitting down for exhaustive personality inventories that are interpreted by experts? Is a private investigator doing a basic workup on them?

Or is he just going with his gut?

No one has a crystal ball. 

But people can have thorough, rigorous hiring processes for c-levels at billion dollar companies.

[Pimlach]

30 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

But there is no indication he was performing poorly at his job.  The affair and job performance are two unrelated items.  He should have known Roth would have an affair?

 

HOW?

[Mustache of God]

21 minutes ago, Sidc3000 said:

Well this is definitely not a sign of a stable organization.  Not good at all  

I disagree. This is how stable organizations function. If this was swept under the rug and allowed to continue that would be the sign of a toxic workplace environment.

[Doohickie]

4 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Nope, I guess not.  I have personally seen managers who were very effective at managing and were stellar employees who got caught with their pants down with a secretary in a conference room.  Yes, you have to show someone like that to the door, but no, until he was caught at it there was no indication that he had issues along those lines. 

I'm not about to hold TPegs responsible for another man's personal failings.

[Doohickie]

10 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

But people can have thorough, rigorous hiring processes for c-levels at billion dollar companies.

Do you know that this wasn't the case with the Roth hiring?

[Sidc3000]

20 minutes ago, Mustache of God said:

I disagree. This is how stable organizations function. If this was swept under the rug and allowed to continue that would be the sign of a toxic workplace environment.

A stable organization isn’t firing the people in charge after three months. They aren’t as transparent since we don’t know why they were fired. Is it because Pegula is creating a toxic work environment 

[That Aud Smell]

24 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Do you know that this wasn't the case with the Roth hiring?

Ha. 

As indicated upthread and elsewhere, I have inferred how Terry goes about things. He's always brought in people he knows and likes. There has been no due diligence other than Terry liking the cut of their jib. Call it his Paul Gaustad Principle.

If Terry's hired professional executive recruiters, paid them multiple six figures for their services, and gone through an exhaustive workup of any of his c-level candidates (as alluded to above), then I will gladly withdraw my takery here, tip my hat to the man, and wish him better luck next time.

But that's not what's been happening.

 

[Taro T]

Not saying it is a factor, but is Kim Pegula's health issues part of what is generating this recent round of upper level instability?  It seemed there was significant instability back in the Russ Brandon days but since he was let go things seemed to settle down.

It's been a little over 1 year since KP's event.  It seems like most of the new wave of transitions have occurred in the past 3 months presumably after the indications are that she would not be able to resume her full schedule any time soon, if ever.  So, adjustments have been made.  Were they as fully vetted as other moves post Brandon have been?

Don't know those answers, and if the impression that things had settled down post-Brandon is incorrect, well then as Emily Lutella used to say, "nevermind."

[That Aud Smell]

5 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Not saying it is a factor, but is Kim Pegula's health issues part of what is generating this recent round of upper level instability?

Unless Roth and D'Angelo were having a thr-- ... err, never mind.

[Pimlach]

17 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Nope, I guess not.  I have personally seen managers who were very effective at managing and were stellar employees who got caught with their pants down with a secretary in a conference room.  Yes, you have to show someone like that to the door, but no, until he was caught at it there was no indication that he had issues along those lines. 

I'm not about to hold TPegs responsible for another man's personal failings.

He apparently knew Roth from Fidelity for 12 years and he worked with him in other capacities.  He gave him a high level exec position with the Sabres that really could have been considered a stretch assignment for him.  Then, only 6 months later he also gave him him Ron Raccuia's job with the Bills. 

Raccuia has been in Sports Management his entire 30+ year career .  He met the Terry in 2011.  He started AdPro Sports which Pegula bought from him in 2014.  Pegula hired him into the Bills and promoted him.  He was Kim's confidante.   He was a guy that was proven in the sports management.   He got the stadium deal done.  Then was let go in favor of Roth, a still unproven Sports exec with 6 months of experience.  

Even without the affair, does this sound like great logic?   We don't know the personalities but work experience and results of these two men are miles apart.  

Terry is not responsible for Roth's failings, he was right to dismiss him,  but he is responsible for his own decisions on who he hires.  

[Porous Five Hole]

This thread is all over the place. 
Terry didn't cause this to happen and he didn't cause the similar situation to happen with Russ Brandon.

Speaking only of the Sabres and only of the business side of the office, Russ became team president in 2015. Once he canoodled his way out of a job, Kim took over as president.  Due to illness, Roth was hired. This isn’t some kind of absurd turnover.  
 

I cannot speak to the churning of front office positions at one bills drive, but the average job tenure in the US is about four years.  Making this about Pegula isn’t making sense to me.