Around the NHL 2023-24 Season

[SabreFinn]

30 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Because we never did have the “Eichel” suggested by uttering “Eichel” today rostered while ROR was also on the team. We only ever had the Eichel that started the season at 20 years old, and younger, while ROR was on the team. We always talk about giving players time to develop, Jack wasn’t close to rounding out his full game in his first few years and wasn’t close to the player he is now, that he started to become in 19-20 as a Sabre. By the time Eichel started actually becoming Eichel we had Mojo at 2C

personally I would have loved to see what we’d have looked like with something closer to current Eichel and a ROR was that was winning Smythes, but we never got that chance because Botterill dealt ROR and willingly took a step back when we were supposed to be trying to win

great trade 

It is a bit sad. Especially for all of you who have suffered through all of these 12 years, that bad management has taken away many joyful moments, just because of bad management.

There are really a lot of former Sabreplayers that is and have been important in succesful teams...

[Sabres Fan in NS]

6 minutes ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

 

In the  video he explains that F is for 'fine'.  That's the eyebrow raising thing.

Actually, maybe not.  This dude is hard to follow sometimes.

[dudacek]

57 minutes ago, Thorny said:

What do you think the record should be? Surely if we can’t reasonably expect the roster to amount to significantly more, there’s an issue. Isn’t that what the grade represents? The state of team overall up to and including the way it was constructed resulting in such a record?

The Sabres are in 26th place out of 32. If it’s not an F it’s close. Let’s say 5 designations: A, B, C, D, F. 32 teams, that’s 6 or 7 in each tier. We are 7th from the bottom 

Ok, let’s give ‘em a D-

 

The question was a legit attempt to see where Sabrespace applies blame, for what is a team that certainly isn’t better than last year’s but maybe isn’t much worse either.

@DarthEbriate seems to think Adam’s dropped the ball for not acquiring the correct pieces.

@sabremike skirts the roster question but sees a team that he thinks looks worse than it did and blames the coaches.

From reading the site, I know other are blaming the players. (Pretty much every one of them except for Quinn, Peterka, Benson and Ryan Johnson. You know, the one who haven’t been around long enough to get too disappointed in)

 

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No they didn't. He was stapled to Jack's wing almost from the get go. The centers were Eichel and ROR.

Reinhart was always good but because he didn't hit things hard enough ppl didn't like him. 

This is incorrect on every level. 

First, He did play center when they first used him. After they drafted Eichel they put him on the wing beside him. Not before. So you could argue they had too many top centers or you could argue he wasn't good enough at center to be a center but either way he started as a center.

Now on to your favourite trope "he didn't hit things" , that was never the issue. The issue was how he used his body in and around the net and whether or not he would go in hard and take (or give) the punishment or whether he'd back off or shy away. He was always willing to go near the net, he was not always willing to go in hard and tight. 

Benson, the comparison of which brought this up, despite his size, seems more willing to make contact and use his body in tight. 

It's never about that simplistic trope you sue "hitting", it's always about how you use your physicality to shield the puck, move past players, drive through the D. Physicality is much more than just "hitting things". 

I also didn't like the way he'd almost always give the puck to Eichel and let him drive the play. That may have been on the coaching, but it made for a very predictable and easy to defend against offense.

He also seemed to lack a consistent work ethic. The slow starts were notorious, and I still remember that Detroit goal where he just quit on the play. I'm sure you remember it to. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

Yes, in his first season, Reinhart was in the lineup as the 2C (Hodgson-Reinhart-Gionta) before slipping to 4C (Deslauriers-Reinhart-McCormick). And he just didn't have the strength or game speed to be effective, even when he was able to get to the correct locations. Then, back to juniors.

Then, for his rookie season 2, he started with Eichel, bounced around a bit (a couple games at C [Moulson-Reinhart-McGinn] and random configurations [McGinn-Legwand-Reinhart], before settling in on ROR's wing on the top line for the bulk of the season.

And we haven't had a go-to-the-net and get deflection goals since Reinhart left. (And he's still doing it with FLA. Reinhart had a beautiful, effortless deflection in their recent dismantling of the Avs.)

Long standing problem and still is. Remember Kreuger sticking Risto in front on the PP? For all his bad coaching he saw the problem too. It has still not been corrected. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Reinhart frequently stood in front of the net and took a pounding 

he would frequently get some nice deflections doing just this in front, remember?

There’s no ifs ands or buts with Reinhart.

He’s just a studt. (if we really need to keep that d, even now, after all this time.)

Never going to agree on this but no need to beat it to death as he's a Panther.

I still say he was good at going near the net, but he generally avoided the heavier/dirtier areas. Maybe in Florida he does that better, or maybe he fits better as they play a heavier team game and have lots of guys who do that job and also open up space. 

The ability to deflect pucks absolutely. "Stud" not so much. 

[Thorny]

48 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The question was a legit attempt to see where Sabrespace applies blame, for what is a team that certainly isn’t better than last year’s but maybe isn’t much worse either.

@DarthEbriate seems to think Adam’s dropped the ball for not acquiring the correct pieces.

@sabremike skirts the roster question but sees a team that he thinks looks worse than it did and blames the coaches.

From reading the site, I know other are blaming the players. (Pretty much every one of them except for Quinn, Peterka, Benson and Ryan Johnson. You know, the one who haven’t been around long enough to get too disappointed in)

 

Of course, was just joining him, I’m not getting left out of a dudacek conversation on SS, particular nowadays.

I agree with your implications.

I haven’t been getting on the players this year much but, for my part, my bias, I’m just wired to go GM side rather than players side: generally I’m prone to think effort over 82 games over 32 teams pretty much evens out.

Maybe Dahlin was the exception a bit earlier this year. To me I hold specifically him to a higher standard. Unfairly or not. Did the same with JE now I think about it. But they are just That guy. 

Edited January 13 by Thorny

[Brawndo]

On 1/6/2024 at 3:04 PM, PerreaultForever said:

It was a clean hit. 

You want to bring kids in to play with men these things will happen. 

You want figure skating, go watch that. 

I did not say it was not a clean hit. 
I do wonder how much longer it will be. 
 

My Preceptor during residency was one of the Sabres Team Doctors and I did the physicals for NHL Combine for six years so I have spent a lot of time around NHL Medical Personnel.  I have seen current players at the time going  through concussion protocol and retired ones with presumed CTE, so I have a different perspective on certain types of hits. One of the biggest concerns facing the league is concerns about concussions and head injuries and the best way to prevent them. Checking particularly open ice hits has been a topic of debate and the concussion lawsuit against the league necessitated this Elliott  Friedman and Jeff Marek even mentioned on one of their podcasts they could see a future for the league where checking is eliminated. 
 

The league knows it cannot completely eliminate head injuries and concussions, but there is some growing traction that eliminating open ice checking would help reduce this. 
 

And for every person that says they will stop watching the NHL if certain types of checking are eliminated, the NHL really isn’t marketing to them. 
Their commercial and social media campaigns are highlighting youth, skill and scoring 

Besides there is always the NOSHO. 

[DarthEbriate]

28 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Long standing problem and still is. Remember Kreuger sticking Risto in front on the PP? For all his bad coaching he saw the problem too. It has still not been corrected. 

Tuch will occasionally get a deflection goal, and -- as in the Ottawa game which resulted in a goal -- he'll do a flyby screen to aid Thompson's shot. But when the opponent is rightly locking TNT down, they aren't willing to keep someone in front to muck around and get those garbage deflections/rebounds.

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

And for every person that says they will stop watching the NHL if certain types of checking are eliminated, the NHL really isn’t marketing to them. 
Their commercial and social media campaigns are highlighting youth, skill and scoring

Very salient.

It’s something you notice a lot more live in person too when you can see the moments leading up to interactions between players the camera sometimes misses in real time (forgive me but I haven’t been watching nearly as many games on tv lately), but seeing the Jets live here the other day was a good reminder:

The fact of the matter is, by and large, the players just aren’t interested in even getting into the collisions they were before. At least in the regular season (but increasingly in playoffs), imo more often than not both parties simply willingly avoid the real impactful ones: it’s not really an individual “business decision” anymore on part of player, doesn’t need to be, not when it’s just business as usual. The physical intimidation side is just willingly being de-prioritized, and increasingly so. And other sports.

EDIT: Guees not?? JT Miller you goon

Edited January 13 by Thorny

[Brawndo]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

Very salient.

It’s something you notice a lot more live in person too when you can see the moments leading up to interactions between players the camera sometimes misses in real time (forgive me but I haven’t been watching nearly as many games on tv lately), but seeing the Jets live here the other day was a good reminder:

The fact of the matter is, by and large, the players just aren’t interested in even getting into the collisions they were before. At least in the regular season (but increasingly in playoffs), imo more often than not both parties simply willingly avoid the real impactful ones: it’s not really an individual “business decision” anymore on part of player, doesn’t need to be, not when it’s just business as usual. The physical intimidation side is just willingly being de-prioritized, and increasingly so. And other sports.

EDIT: Guees not?? JT Miller you goon

Agreed this generation of players seems to be different, although there will always be a few outliers who play on the edge such as Jacob Trouba.
NHLPA announced a Players Mental Initiative this week, there seems to be a different approach being taken 

[sabremike]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

The question was a legit attempt to see where Sabrespace applies blame, for what is a team that certainly isn’t better than last year’s but maybe isn’t much worse either.

@DarthEbriate seems to think Adam’s dropped the ball for not acquiring the correct pieces.

@sabremike skirts the roster question but sees a team that he thinks looks worse than it did and blames the coaches.

From reading the site, I know other are blaming the players. (Pretty much every one of them except for Quinn, Peterka, Benson and Ryan Johnson. You know, the one who haven’t been around long enough to get too disappointed in)

 

Look at the rosters of some of the teams above us and then say it's the roster and not the fact that the coaching sucks. Do you SERIOUSLY think the Caps, Flyers and Islanders have better rosters? Do think it's an accident that people who ***** sucked here leave and almost overnight do a 180 with their new teams? How many times are people not going to learn their lesson about blaming the players and getting crowned as hard as possible?

[#freejame]

Sam Reinhart 100% played center his post-draft season tryout. I drove to Raleigh specifically to see him play and was pissed Teddy played him only like 8 minutes. 

Sam Reinhart 100% caught a lot of ***** for “not playing physical enough” and being “weak on his skates/can’t stand up.”

Sam Reinhart 100% was the best netfront Sabre since Vanek and nobody has come close to him since. 

He’s the one that got away. We dicked him on his contract timeline because we haven’t had a real front office since Darcy ***** Regier. 

[mjd1001]

13 minutes ago, #freejame said:

Sam Reinhart 100% played center his post-draft season tryout. I drove to Raleigh specifically to see him play and was pissed Teddy played him only like 8 minutes. 

Sam Reinhart 100% caught a lot of ***** for “not playing physical enough” and being “weak on his skates/can’t stand up.”

Sam Reinhart 100% was the best netfront Sabre since Vanek and nobody has come close to him since. 

He’s the one that got away. We dicked him on his contract timeline because we haven’t had a real front office since Darcy ***** Regier. 

Andreychuk, Vanek, Reinhart....not 'drop the gloves' guys, but guys who are willing to stand in front of the net and take abuse to get the 'garbage/tip in goals' that fans don't give enough credit for because they aren't pretty. 

As a young kid growing up I even then was amazed at the junk Andreychuk took....he's so big but he doesn't hit or fight...he is so slow....trade him. All the guy did was score goals for this team and dominate on the PP, but he didn't 'look' good enough for many fans.

When you have a guy like that, don't under-rate them because they don't pass the 'eye test' as being skilled enough. They are often times more valuable than the ultra-skilled perimeter guys.

Edited January 14 by mjd1001

[Porous Five Hole]

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/39301592/golden-knights-jack-eichel-undisclosed-injury
 

Anybody know what happened to Jack?

[thewookie1]

13 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/39301592/golden-knights-jack-eichel-undisclosed-injury
 

Anybody know what happened to Jack?

He was viciously booed before the game and had his feelings hurt

[Brawndo]

6 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

He was viciously booed before the game and had his feelings hurt

Lingering Upper Body Injury from lifting this 

 

 

[thewookie1]

14 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Lingering Upper Body Injury from lifting this 

 

 

He left us, he gets no sympathy nor respect from me. 

[Porous Five Hole]

10 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

He left us, he gets no sympathy nor respect from me. 

Right, I get that. I was just genuinely curious if anyone knew what happened. I hope it isn’t neck related. 

[thewookie1]

33 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Right, I get that. I was just genuinely curious if anyone knew what happened. I hope it isn’t neck related. 

I honestly do hope the same, hate his guts but don’t want his neck to have issues.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Andreychuk, Vanek, Reinhart....not 'drop the gloves' guys, but guys who are willing to stand in front of the net and take abuse to get the 'garbage/tip in goals' that fans don't give enough credit for because they aren't pretty. 

As a young kid growing up I even then was amazed at the junk Andreychuk took....he's so big but he doesn't hit or fight...he is so slow....trade him. All the guy did was score goals for this team and dominate on the PP, but he didn't 'look' good enough for many fans.

When you have a guy like that, don't under-rate them because they don't pass the 'eye test' as being skilled enough. They are often times more valuable than the ultra-skilled perimeter guys.

I don't see these guys as all that similar. 

Big Dave was a massive man and an immovable object. He'd get right in tight and with his reach he could pretty much bang in anything that the goalie didn't hold. 

Vanek had a lot of skill but he was soft. Especially if you compare him to Briere and Drury. We kept the wrong guy. 

Reinhart I've already talked about too much. No comparison. 

The point about tips and dirty goals is dead on though. This is what bugs me about Tage. With his size if he played like Andreychuk he could be a league MVP, but no, he just likes to snap wristers from a distance. Guess we have to go find somebody else. 

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

Lingering Upper Body Injury from lifting this 

 

 

Now watch them put him on LTIR so they can add at the deadline and then he will be back for game one. 

 

[Doohickie]

14 hours ago, Quint said:

In a bit of an eyebrow raiser, the Hockey Guy gave the Sabres an "F" at the halfway point of the season. 

The Sabres did have the 9th hardest schedule in the first half but they do have an easier second half.

Here's his rationale (6:35) 

I saw that and I full agree with Shannon.

[Doohickie]

12 hours ago, Quint said:

I think you're over-reacting a bit Mike. An F would be a 7-30 record. The Sabres are 18-20. The expectations were higher but but the GM did not address critical issues, in favor of "development." I didn't expect them to make the playoffs this year simply because of the unaddressed needs. Sure they're a disappointment but they have won 3 of 4 and hopefully they'll get some traction and have a good second half, like last year. I'm a bit optimistic with what I've been seeing lately.

In the video, Shannon points out that the Sabres finished strong last season, and the expectation was for that to continue, but instead they fell off the table.  I still have hope they make the playoffs but I would still give them an F on their first half.

[Doohickie]

10 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Just an observation about Toronto....

They have a MUCH better record (in general) against 'older' teams in the NHL than they do against younger teams.

The Leafs weakness seems to be playing younger teams WITH high end talent that hasn't matured yet. Toronto doesn't do well and gives up a lot of goals to Buffalo, Ottawa, Montreal, Chicago, Even Columbus and fair slightly better against the older teams.  

And its not a "they play down to their competition all the time. San Jose is bad, but they aren't that young..and Toronto smoked them both games. So its not a good-bad thing, but it really seems an older-younger thing.

They are 1-1 against the Canadians, allowing 10 goals in those 2 games.

0-2 vs the Sabres, allowing 15 goals in those 2 games.

1-2 vs Columbus, allowing 13 goals in those 3 games.

0-2 vs Chicago, allowing 8 goals in 2 games

1-2 vs Ottawa, allowing 13 goals in those 2 games.

Those are 5 of the youngest teams in the league. (Buffalo and C-bus being the 2 youngest by average age coming into the season)  Toronto is a combined 3-9 against them, allowing 54 goals in 12 games (4.50 gaa)

Vs the rest of the league...18-9 with 71 goals allowed in 27 games (2.63 gaa)

I'll tell you what:  Them's some fancy stats right there.

[PerreaultForever]

11 hours ago, Thorny said:

What do you think the record should be? Surely if we can’t reasonably expect the roster to amount to significantly more, there’s an issue. Isn’t that what the grade represents? The state of team overall up to and including the way it was constructed resulting in such a record?

The Sabres are in 26th place out of 32. If it’s not an F it’s close. Let’s say 5 designations: A, B, C, D, F. 32 teams, that’s 6 or 7 in each tier. We are 7th from the bottom 

Ok, let’s give ‘em a D-

 

Oh come on don't you know, NOBODY gets an F any more. They're all special. They all get ribbons and participation awards.