GDT - Sabres @ Senators - Nov. 16, 2022 - 19:00 (EST) - MSG, TVAS, SN and WGR

[Scottysabres]

Just now, Claude Balls said:

Maybe the Sabres can bring in Marty's son to play goal. He's 2-0 with 1 shutout and has faced 59 shots.

Razor says he's better then his Dad 🤣 

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I'm honestly a bit shocked they dropped this far, this quick, this hard. Jeff Marek was comparing them to Colorado like 2 weeks ago.

For myself, for everyone here, there needs to be an automatic autocorrect for anyone touting a strong finish. There just isn't a correlation to games won once eliminated and the start the following year. 

There just isn't. 

2 weeks ago?

Heck, they were playing hockey against Boston 2 games ago.  It was a loss, but it was a hockey game.

Tonight wasn't.  This could have been the worst game of the Granato era since Ullmark returned to action.

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don't believe my own sh*t half the time but I'm really, honestly, starting to think there's merit to my theory that until the team says, "eff it, our goal is to win, that's it, whatever it takes, take care of the rest later", they won't. They need an EKG after the willingly low expectations that have been set, year after year. 

We've heard of self-fulfilling prophecies, right? Those are actually things people talk about for a reason. 

If "winning isn't the goal, anyways", wins won't come. 

The covid shortened, disaster 2021 season with Taylor Hall doesn't represent a good faith sample size of "going for it". It's certainly much smaller than the sample size of "development years" that have lead to zilch. 

FWIW, I think there is merit to this.

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, Marvin said:

FWIW, I think there is merit to this.

That's "culture", too, right?

[Refuting]

7 game win streak incoming 

[SwampD]

26 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I just don’t understand how we can cycle through hundreds of players, coaches, and the like and yet the team always falls right back into the exact same groove. And don’t tell me ownership is to blame because I highly doubt Pegula is somehow magically popping every balloon anytime we seem to start going somewhere.

Not sure how many times this needs to be said. The salaries of the players on the ice does not even reach the salary floor.

Are you telling me that if Pegula spent even half of what he could (10MM) on actual NHL players that we wouldn’t be, at least, a playoff cusp team?

I’m not saying spend to the the cap, but, FU Terry, this is bullsh!t.

 

[SABRESfan]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

2 weeks ago?

Heck, they were playing hockey against Boston 2 games ago.  It was a loss, but it was a hockey game.

Tonight wasn't.  This could have been the worst game of the Granato era since Ullmark returned to action.

I don’t know what to make of this team anymore.  I really don’t.  

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That's "culture", too, right?

That is part of it, yes.

[apuszczalowski]

When was the last time a team was successful using the 'slow build' process they keep trying here?

A Build where a team just kept collecting prospects to develop in the minors until they are all ready to come up and just become competitive?

Pittsburgh & Chicago were a long time ago and I believe they had a couple years in a row of high picks that came in right away and were surrounded with Vets brought in to compete.

In todays NHL, with the Cap, you don't have the time to spend seasons developing and slowly developing a team.

I have never understood this idea of not wanting to bring in good players so young players wont be blocked either. Whats the big deal if a young player has to spend a little bit of extra time in the minors? Has there ever been a player who was ruined because they were kept down in the minors too long? Its never a problem having too many good players of any age. It gives you options and assetts to deal to address other needs. If they had brought in a better goalie this offseason, whats the worst that happens? He does well and one of the prospects develops and becomes ready to play in the next season or 2? Now you have a player to trade when you decide which one is best for the team. Instead they keep trying to find someone who has some potential, but not enough that they would block one of the prospects when they are ready. Would leaving UPL in the AHL for an extra season or 2 really kill his development?

[Pimlach]

39 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

Because its always the same even though the names change

Hire a cheap Coach/GM with little to no experience in the position and let them play the slow development game to build a 'Dynasty'......

The last coach with a nhl head coaching resume was Bylsma, and he built his off a team that was carried on the backs of Crosby, Malkin and a bunch of other big stars.

Right there in big bold letters. 

Maybe KA and DG can do it?    There was a little incremental improvement so far that is now gone.  The pace of the rebuild is painfully slow and could kill Granato and some of the young core (like the previous young core).  I would hate to change again so soon.  

No HC or GM hired by Pegula has ever been a HC or GM in the NHL again.  Murray, his first GM, was out of the game completely after his stint in Buffalo, never to return.  Botterill smartly took a demotion in Seattle when he left.  

All the HC's are done:  Nolan, Bylsma, Housley, Ralph Kramden, and maybe DG if this keeps falling off the tracks.  

Look at the guys the TWO expansion teams hired to get things started - McPhee (Vegas) and Francis (Seattle).  Big difference in experience, pedigree, demonstrated skills, and the reach-back needed to hire top people as compared to Murray/Botterill.  

I am praying that Adams is smart enough and can eventually get clearance to build a team.  He must be constrained by Pegula's "economic goals".  

Edited November 17, 2022 by Pimlach

[apuszczalowski]

15 minutes ago, Marvin said:

FWIW, I think there is merit to this.

There seems to be this belief that they need to build a long lasting dynasty, that they need to build a team that will somehow just grow together and form a core that will dominate together for however long they play in the league. What they need to do is just put together a competitive team with a goal of making the playoffs, then add and build from that.

[thewookie1]

4 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

When was the last time a team was successful using the 'slow build' process they keep trying here?

A Build where a team just kept collecting prospects to develop in the minors until they are all ready to come up and just become competitive?

Pittsburgh & Chicago were a long time ago and I believe they had a couple years in a row of high picks that came in right away and were surrounded with Vets brought in to compete.

In todays NHL, with the Cap, you don't have the time to spend seasons developing and slowly developing a team.

I have never understood this idea of not wanting to bring in good players so young players wont be blocked either. Whats the big deal if a young player has to spend a little bit of extra time in the minors? Has there ever been a player who was ruined because they were kept down in the minors too long? Its never a problem having too many good players of any age. It gives you options and assetts to deal to address other needs. If they had brought in a better goalie this offseason, whats the worst that happens? He does well and one of the prospects develops and becomes ready to play in the next season or 2? Now you have a player to trade when you decide which one is best for the team. Instead they keep trying to find someone who has some potential, but not enough that they would block one of the prospects when they are ready. Would leaving UPL in the AHL for an extra season or 2 really kill his development?

In some ways its more you don't want to block prospects with mediocre overpaid players.

[apuszczalowski]

1 minute ago, thewookie1 said:

In some ways its more you don't want to block prospects with mediocre overpaid players.

then you trade away the mediocre overpaid players. There always seems to be teams that will take those players (the league does seem hell bent on making sure the Coyotes always exist....)

[Marvin]

1 minute ago, thewookie1 said:

In some ways its more you don't want to block prospects with mediocre overpaid players.

Perhaps, but the flaw with this idea for this team is that there is no one to block after Dahlin, Samuelsson, Power, and Lyubushkin.

[Carmel Corn]

48 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I just don’t understand how we can cycle through hundreds of players, coaches, and the like and yet the team always falls right back into the exact same groove. And don’t tell me ownership is to blame because I highly doubt Pegula is somehow magically popping every balloon anytime we seem to start going somewhere.

IMHO - they keep drafting the same kind of players....based on pure talent, not necessarily heart or tenacity...or being "rugged" players who help bring some grit and snarl on the ice.  We draft or trade for too many prima dona's and not enough who play with an edge.  Our coaching history can't turn passive players into aggressive one, so they fail too.

[thewookie1]

I'm done with Bryson at this point, replace him.

Jokiharju I badly want to work out because of his play in his first year here but it just seems like he's spinning his proverbial defensive wheels.

1 minute ago, Carmel Corn said:

IMHO - they keep drafting the same kind of players....based on pure talent, not necessarily heart or tenacity...or being "rugged" players who help bring some grit and snarl on the ice.  We draft or trade for too many prima dona's and not enough who play with an edge.  Our coaching history can't turn passive players into aggressive one, so they fail too.

When we take anyone even akin to that style they either end up complete busts or never get past the AHL

[Believer]

 

Forgive me in advance… Will play Devil’s Advocate…

Why not trades??…

Vegas and Seattle rose quickly in their divisions with a motley collection experienced players… Not suggesting a Murray or Botterill reprise…

A willing owner and a savvy GM could improve our team with a couple of the right vets from winning programs… without sacrificing the future…

Wouldn’t paying fans support a better team this season?… I think so

We are risk averse, seems to me… Owner doesn’t want to spend the money… GM doesn’t want to assume the risk… Coach doesn’t know how to win at the NHL level… 

So the inexperienced players learn what Okposo, Girgensons, the fans, and the Pegula’s already know…

It is planned and expected, no less

For a risk averse owner and GM, it is a risky strategy if we develop a core of losers under long term contracts 

[Thorny]

.500 is still in reach. I think that'd be a reasonably achievable benchmark at this point. Can hang our hats on improving from the 81 total in 2015 which I said was the bare minimum acceptable total coming into this season.

[Gatorman0519]

One thing is certain is that we are in uncharted waters.  No team has been this bad for this long in history.  This franchise is now going to eclipse the old futility record by two years with no end in sight whatsoever. You could not be this bad this long on accident if you picked players in the draft randomly.  Losing is an artform here.

[Thorny]

I hate doing this, and presented w/o comment:

Ralph: 36-49-12, .433 points %

Don: 48-65-14, .433 points %

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Thorny

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

.500 is still in reach. I think that'd be a reasonably achievable benchmark at this point. Can hang our hats on improving from the 81 total in 2015 which I said was the bare minimum acceptable total coming into this season.

Not only 0.500.  DELUCA 0.500!!! They were there 3 games ago.  They can be back in no time & then all will be swell.  (They'll be on pace to miss the playoffs by 14 points, but they'll have won as many as they lost.)

[bunomatic]

Lets start with one win. Lay it all on the line for one lousy win. Have a player only meeting and agree that we’ll do whatever it takes scratch and claw our way to one friggin win. One game one win at a time. Play for each other. Not the owner, not the fans but for the guys in that room. A brotherhood. Thats how they need to go into the next game. At the beginning of the year these guys believed they could beat anyone. Hell the talking heads believed they could beat anyone. Just do it .

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, Gatorman0519 said:

One thing is certain is that we are in uncharted waters.  No team has been this bad for this long in history.  This franchise is now going to eclipse the old futility record by two years with no end in sight whatsoever. You could not be this bad this long on accident if you picked players in the draft randomly.  Losing is an artform here.

It's a salient point. Winning isn't supposed to be such a precious commodity that we want to save it for later. It's not an endangered resource. A .500 team is like bottom 3rd of the league, it's really, really not very hard to construct a team that can win ~ half its games or, more accurately, attain half the available points. 

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Not only 0.500.  DELUCA 0.500!!! They were there 3 games ago.  They can be back in no time & then all will be swell.  (They'll be on pace to miss the playoffs by 14 points, but they'll have won as many as they lost.)

Agree but deluca .500 isn't that meaningful of a connotation to me if it's simultaneously of the NHL .500 variety at the same time. I just call that NHL .500 then 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Thorny

[TheAud]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

I have been in St Louis since 87 with a few small interruptions. Never seen a win here.  Never once.  The futility is incomprehensible.  The few games that they won I couldn’t make.  Was in LA for the 5 years prior to that.  Never saw a win there either.  Or Washington, or Pittsburgh, Chicago, Boston, Dallas and Long Island.  
 

I have never seen a road win. EVER 

Well that’s discouraging. 
 

I’ve only seen them on the road in Pittsburgh, MSG, and Boston. Might have won one of two at MSG so I think I’m 1-3 on the road lifetime. 

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Gatorman0519 said:

One thing is certain is that we are in uncharted waters.  No team has been this bad for this long in history.  This franchise is now going to eclipse the old futility record by two years with no end in sight whatsoever. You could not be this bad this long on accident if you picked players in the draft randomly.  Losing is an artform here.

Would have to look closer at some really bad teams from the past to say that for sure.  Don't forget, for the vast majority of the NHL's history anywhere from 2/3's to nearly 4/5ths of all teams made the playoffs.  Just because teams made the playoffs didn't mean they weren't awful.  The Sabres fans have the misfortune of supporting a team who's owner decided a tank was a good idea when only 1/2 of the teams make the playoffs.

But, yeah, this is a historically futile team.

Hoping they find a way to shock the Loafs and get heading back in the right direction.