GDT - Sabres @ Stars - February 27 , 2022 - 2:00 PM (EST) - MSG-B, WGR and BSSW

[Doohickie]

39 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Devon Levi has entered the chat

Indeed he has.  I just rolled with Portillo because he's a year older.  I could see Kevyn trying to roll with UPL and Portillo at the NHL level next season and giving Levi a year in the A along with a journeyman like Toker.  Not sure it will work.  One or two of UPL, Portillo and Levi could conceivably be our goalie corps in the NHL next year.  If it works out with two of them in the NHL and the Sabres make a big jump in the points KA will be a genius.  If he tries it and has little or no improvement he may end up fired.  If I'm him I might want to bring in some goaltending help to protect my own job.

[JohnC]

14 minutes ago, eman said:

That being said, does anyone on this coaching staff coach defence? The Sabres defence is abysmal and it looks exactly the same as it has under 2 previous Sabre coaches. I used to blame Steve Smith but its obvious, he isn't the problem as he is gone and there is no change in defensive coverage or strategy. The defence continues to back in on its goaltenders giving up point blank opportunities each game. It hardly ever takes the body and continues to use "stick checking" as it's primary tactic. Sure you can bitch about the state of Sabres goaltending but until this aspect is seriously corrected, it will not matter who is between the pipes.

There are not enough quality defenders. We do have some good young players but there simply isn't enough talent on the backend. Most of the issues that plague this team revolve around the lack of talent. Coaching matters but it can't overcome a deficit of talent. They are working with what they got. 

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Maybe we package Eakin and Girgs, with Peterka and a first rounder to St Louis for ROR?  

Absolutely not. Peterka is going to be a Sabre next season and hopefully will eventually be a legitimate first or second line player for us. For a variety of reasons ROR does not fit in with what this organization is attempting to build. And the biggest obstacle is his age and how he fits in with what is being constructed here. 

[Pimlach]

11 hours ago, JohnC said:

The reason that KA took over as the GM is because Botterill under the orders of Pegula refused to fire a large number of his scouting staff. I am not criticizing the current GM for what he has done so far other than inadequately addressing the goalie position this offseason. 

The Sabres will be entering this offseason with an abundance of high draft picks for the next two years. And they will have more cap room than any just about any team in the league. The issue is whether the owner is going to allow the GM to smartly use a portion of the gaping cap space and draft assets to bring in some solid to good players to replace the interchangeable JAGs on this roster, and also offer more support for the young players.  

This season the actual number of people at the games is 400-6000. Everyone understands that the Sabres are in the midst of a rebuilding process. But that doesn't mean that the owner can't be committed to fielding a competitive team. For where this lagging team stands relative to the rest of the league the owners should be ashamed of themselves. This troubled franchise has already gone through a disreputable tank. For what? So the players that we acquired because of the tank end up desperately wanting out because they realize that their careers are being squandered in this malignant franchise. 

This season had little meaning right from the start because it was planned that way. The owners need to have more pride and self-respect as owners. If they are not committed to winning and showcasing a respectable product, then they should sell the team and get out of the business. Enough is enough. 

Your best post ever.  Waiting to win and not being competitive is disgraceful and has been going on far too long.  The ownership is clueless.  Buffalo is raising an entire generation of non fans because if it.  They got lucky to find McDermott, who was there before and after Rex.  

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Absolutely not. Peterka is going to be a Sabre next season and hopefully will eventually be a legitimate first or second line player for us. For a variety of reasons ROR does not fit in with what this organization is attempting to build. And the biggest obstacle is his age and how he fits in with what is being constructed here. 

Relax, it’s not serious.  It my parallel to the first ROR trade, in reverse.  
 

ROR fits for sure.  He is a player almost every team could use. His age is not a problem either.  The only problem with the trade is that he would NEVER come back.  

Edited February 28, 2022 by Pimlach

[eman]

54 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There are not enough quality defenders. We do have some good young players but there simply isn't enough talent on the backend. Most of the issues that plague this team revolve around the lack of talent. Coaching matters but it can't overcome a deficit of talent. They are working with what they got. 

Not taking the body and stick checking and backing up into your own goaltender is strictly on coaching. I don't disagree with you that the talent on D is thin as well, it is, but you have teach a defensive structure and it is exactly the same as under 2 previous Sabre coaches and that is what concerns me.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, eman said:

That being said, does anyone on this coaching staff coach defence?  ... Sure you can bitch about the state of Sabres goaltending but until this aspect is seriously corrected, it will not matter who is between the pipes.

This is a good take and these are fair points. I didn't get to watch the game yesterday, but ran the math on SV%. I feel like we've been seeing sub .900 efforts for a while now. A difference maker in the cage would help a lot, but there must be, as you say, other issues afoot.

With that said, it occurs to me: Some of the porous team defence here likely owes to Granato's refusal to play "low incident, small ice" hockey. The details of this are beyond my capabilities (or free time constraints), but I would bet dollars to donuts that if you were to compare the D-zone structure (or even neutral zone spacing) of, say, a Bylsma Sabres team or even a Housley  Sabres team, you'd see Sabres teams that are much more compact (even packed in) and essentially playing not to surrender chances (or at least high quality chances), and, in so doing, were surrendering the ability to transition quickly for a chance the other way.

Edited February 28, 2022 by That Aud Smell

[K-9]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

What happens if the owners fire KA because the results don't meet their expectations? Are you going to re-start the rebuild clock all over again? This gimpy rebuilding process didn't start with KA. It actually started with Botterill. The players that form the young core of this team are Botterill players. I understand that after a year KA decided to go on a fire sale and deal his old core (who understandably no longer wanted to be here) in order to disassemble in order to re-assemble. 

Your  KA up to the task clock runs much slower than my clock does. If this front office doesn't smartly utilize some of its draft and cap capital to upgrade this roster this offseason beyond adding the youngsters in the system, then my alarm bell will go off with this regime. When you are in the competition business you need to seriously compete. Enough is enough. 

You’ve done a complete 180 from where you were a few short years ago when I was screaming for Housley’s and Botterill’s heads on a platter over at the Off the Wall Sabres thread at TBD and you were telling me we had to have patience. 😂

What are the owners’ expectations? What is their limit with KA? Given that the current rebuild strategy is different than what we’ve seen previously, I suspect their expectations are radically different than yours. I think they may have found the patience you have lost. 

[woods-racer]

21 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

This is a good take and these are fair points. I didn't get to watch the game yesterday, but ran the math on SV%. I feel like we've been seeing sub .900 efforts for a while now. A difference maker in the cage would help a lot, but there must be, as you say, other issues afoot.

With that said, it occurs to me: Some of the porous team defence here likely owes to Granato's refusal to play "low incident, small ice" hockey. The details of this are beyond my capabilities (or free time constraints), but I would bet dollars to donuts that if you were to compare the D-zone structure (or even neutral zone spacing) of, say, a Bylsma Sabres team or even a Housley  Sabres team, you'd see Sabres teams that are much more compact (even packed in) and essentially playing not to surrender chances (or at least high quality chances), and, in so doing, were surrendering the ability to transition quickly for a chance the other way.

DG has spoke at length about this. Hardest thing to teach at the NHL level is the speed that needs to exist to play offense. This year is the wash away Kruger year. It's why Casey can make boneheaded plays and not get benched. It's why they give up so many odd man rushes and leave their goalies with horrible stats. The good and the bad. Can't learn if you can't make mistakes.

It's not about win's and losses. It's about the growth of the core. If you see growth, KA and staff are winning.

[Spoonman]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Indeed he has.  I just rolled with Portillo because he's a year older.  I could see Kevyn trying to roll with UPL and Portillo at the NHL level next season and giving Levi a year in the A along with a journeyman like Toker.  Not sure it will work.  One or two of UPL, Portillo and Levi could conceivably be our goalie corps in the NHL next year.  If it works out with two of them in the NHL and the Sabres make a big jump in the points KA will be a genius.  If he tries it and has little or no improvement he may end up fired.  If I'm him I might want to bring in some goaltending help to protect my own job.

I think KA will get a veteran G. They will be WAY below the salary cap floor. I would also like Buffalo to look at being 3rd party broker to take cap $ for ‘22 picks. Sell off every UFA you can, & I know KA has talked to some select players (Pysyc?) about deadline trade & resign in offseason w Buf (we willnstill need R Dmen next yr.

[Spoonman]

19 minutes ago, K-9 said:

You’ve done a complete 180 from where you were a few short years ago when I was screaming for Housley’s and Botterill’s heads on a platter over at the Off the Wall Sabres thread at TBD and you were telling me we had to have patience. 😂

What are the owners’ expectations? What is their limit with KA? Given that the current rebuild strategy is different than what we’ve seen previously, I suspect their expectations are radically different than yours. I think they may have found the patience you have lost. 

I am not being Sabres apologist, however, it has been made clear by KA & Meatballs that thia year a year of expermentation & development. Add to that, the fact Buf has second highest man games lost to injury / covid. KA is doing a deep dive & talking to Beane about medical/training/ etc.... That has to be better.

[That Aud Smell]

28 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

Hardest thing to teach at the NHL level is the speed that needs to exist to play offense.

[Pimlach]

23 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

DG has spoke at length about this. Hardest thing to teach at the NHL level is the speed that needs to exist to play offense. This year is the wash away Kruger year. It's why Casey can make boneheaded plays and not get benched. It's why they give up so many odd man rushes and leave their goalies with horrible stats. The good and the bad. Can't learn if you can't make mistakes.

It's not about win's and losses. It's about the growth of the core. If you see growth, KA and staff are winning.

Growth in Core:   Thompson and Dahlin - yes.  Cozens and Joker - a little bit.  Mitts growth season appears wasted by injury.  Adding Tuch helps. 
 

Krebs and Samuelsson - on a good contending team the are probably both in the AHL.   Quinn and Peterka benefit from patient approach.   UPL is hard to figure   He was better in the NHL than we expected given his AHL numbers   

Is this enough to say KA is winning (succeeding)?   The league lowest attendance and bottom 2 in East conference is part of his grade.   I

 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

You’ve done a complete 180 from where you were a few short years ago when I was screaming for Housley’s and Botterill’s heads on a platter over at the Off the Wall Sabres thread at TBD and you were telling me we had to have patience. 😂

What are the owners’ expectations? What is their limit with KA? Given that the current rebuild strategy is different than what we’ve seen previously, I suspect their expectations are radically different than yours. I think they may have found the patience you have lost. 

I believe that a rebuild was/is necessary. That doesn't mean that I fully go along with how it is done. There is no doubt that the primary method revolves around the strategy of drafting and developing. I'm fine with that. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't other avenues alongside the drafting strategy that could be used to accelerate the pace of the reconstruction. 

It has become apparent to me from a competitive standpoint that this was a throwaway year. That was made abundantly clear when the organization took on a hefty contract for a player they had no intention of keeping for the purpose of using it as a write-off to get to the cap floor.

This offseason, the franchise has a copious amount of cap space and an excess in draft capital for the next couple of years. Will some of those assets be judiciously  used to upgrade the roster and put our young players in a better position to succeed? If it doesn't I will be very disappointed. It's time for this rickety organization to exhibit a greater degree of urgency to becoming more competitive. It's time! The vanishing fanbase deserve better. 

 

[eman]

1 hour ago, woods-racer said:

DG has spoke at length about this. Hardest thing to teach at the NHL level is the speed that needs to exist to play offense. This year is the wash away Kruger year. It's why Casey can make boneheaded plays and not get benched. It's why they give up so many odd man rushes and leave their goalies with horrible stats. The good and the bad. Can't learn if you can't make mistakes.

It's not about win's and losses. It's about the growth of the core. If you see growth, KA and staff are winning.

In the past week or two, I have stopped seeing growth and a regression to old habits (taking nights off) You can't allow this to creep back in, especially with the young players if this coach is to remain. You also have to start instilling a winning atmosphere as constantly exposing these young p[layers to  accept losing, but we're developing, so it's alright mentality will become disheartening to the point that they will want out at the earliest opportunity. Next year is the year I want to see Granato be the guy, or not the guy. I want to see this club push for the final playoff spot. They don't need to get it but at least push for it.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by JoeSchmoe

[woods-racer]

1 hour ago, eman said:

In the past week or two, I have stopped seeing growth and a regression to old habits (taking nights off) You can't allow this to creep back in, especially with the young players if this coach is to remain. You also have to start instilling a winning atmosphere as constantly exposing these young p[layers to  accept losing, but we're developing, so it's alright mentality will become disheartening to the point that they will want out at the earliest opportunity. Next year is the year I want to see Granato be the guy, or not the guy. I want to see this club push for the final playoff spot. They don't need to get it but at least push for it.

 

It's an 82 game season. How many of the core have been close to playing even remotely near that? Dahlin. It's part of learning the NHL. Let the rest figure it out before we say they are slacking. The lockdowns have totally messed with all the young players. This is their first real year. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Hey @JoeSchmoe, this little piggy on the wingy is for you ...

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by The Ghost of Doohickie

[eman]

1 hour ago, woods-racer said:

It's an 82 game season. How many of the core have been close to playing even remotely near that? Dahlin. It's part of learning the NHL. Let the rest figure it out before we say they are slacking. The lockdowns have totally messed with all the young players. This is their first real year. 

That is why I am more than willing to give Granato an entire season next year. Yup, lockdowns were a mess, isolating a mess, Olympic break , than no Olympic break a mess, plus, several veteran players will be gone next season and Rochester grads will take their place, so we'll have a better understanding of the future dynamic of this club under Granato. If UPL isn't ready to carry the load in goal next season, than I don't think he'll ever be ready. That being said, the defence needs to get one hell of a lot better than we have seen in the past 3 seasons.

[Taro T]

Just now, eman said:

That is why I am more than willing to give Granato an entire season next year. Yup, lockdowns were a mess, isolating a mess, Olympic break , than no Olympic break a mess, plus, several veteran players will be gone next season and Rochester grads will take their place, so we'll have a better understanding of the future dynamic of this club under Granato. If UPL isn't ready to carry the load in goal next season, than I don't think he'll ever be ready. That being said, the defence needs to get one hell of a lot better than we have seen in the past 3 seasons.

REALLY believe they should expect UPL to top out as a backup & if he's better than that, well having too many good goalies is A GOOD problem to have.  Especially when 2 of them will be under team control for up to 7 more years & one other for 5 or 6 more years.  Make sure you don't give a full NMC to any outsider brought in & what's currently a tirefire can be a strength next year & in a best case an absolute luxury the following year or 2.

[woods-racer]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

REALLY believe they should expect UPL to top out as a backup & if he's better than that, well having too many good goalies is A GOOD problem to have.  Especially when 2 of them will be under team control for up to 7 more years & one other for 5 or 6 more years.  Make sure you don't give a full NMC to any outsider brought in & what's currently a tirefire can be a strength next year & in a best case an absolute luxury the following year or 2.

I really believe Anderson will be back next season. He has some game left, not 40 games a season game but enough to mentor UPL and get 20 games in. Is Tokarski good enough for the other 20 games? There's where KA has a chance to bring in an upgrade.

Our number 1 goalie will be from within. It's just a matter of when. I don't expect any UFA or trade for a goalie that would qualify as a #1 starter.

[eman]

8 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

I really believe Anderson will be back next season. He has some game left, not 40 games a season game but enough to mentor UPL and get 20 games in. Is Tokarski good enough for the other 20 games? There's where KA has a chance to bring in an upgrade.

Our number 1 goalie will be from within. It's just a matter of when. I don't expect any UFA or trade for a goalie that would qualify as a #1 starter.

I agree, I would go with UPL as the starter and Anderson as his backup. Anderson has plenty of experience and can mentor UPL and can come off the bench when needed instead of carrying the load. Just my opinion. It limits Anderson from injuring himself hopefully, as well. Anderson still has some game left in him, totally agree.

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

I really believe Anderson will be back next season. He has some game left, not 40 games a season game but enough to mentor UPL and get 20 games in. Is Tokarski good enough for the other 20 games? There's where KA has a chance to bring in an upgrade.

Our number 1 goalie will be from within. It's just a matter of when. I don't expect any UFA or trade for a goalie that would qualify as a #1 starter.

Would not trust Anderson for any more than 15 QUALITY games next year.  Since coming back, he plays 20 great minutes then 40 not so great minutes.

Also, believe it's a fool's errand to trust UPL to any more than 20 quality starts.  Agree he'll be penciled in for 41.  MAYBE he's up to it to give them that or more, but wouldn't have money on it.  That leaves, should they not go outside the organization, 47 games for Portillo, Levi, & anyone else (possibly Tokarski, but wouldn't expect him back if both Portillo & Levi are signed, and kind-of expect both Portillo & Levi signed) to cover.

Helllllllloooooo Bedard sweepstakes..

They NEED AND can afford a legit NHL #1.  Doubt they go after 1, but that doesn't negate their needing one.

[woods-racer]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Would not trust Anderson for any more than 15 QUALITY games next year.  Since coming back, he plays 20 great minutes then 40 not so great minutes.

Also, believe it's a fool's errand to trust UPL to any more than 20 quality starts.  Agree he'll be penciled in for 41.  MAYBE he's up to it to give them that or more, but wouldn't have money on it.  That leaves, should they not go outside the organization, 47 games for Portillo, Levi, & anyone else (possibly Tokarski, but wouldn't expect him back if both Portillo & Levi are signed, and kind-of expect both Portillo & Levi signed) to cover.

Helllllllloooooo Bedard sweepstakes..

They NEED AND can afford a legit NHL #1.  Doubt they go after 1, but that doesn't negate their needing one.

Pegula bucks wise, yes they can. They can afford any goalie in the league.

They are not giving up anything lower than a 3rd to get that goalie. 

Second bold.

Are we a playoff team with a true #1 next year? If you believe we are than we need one, if they are not it would just be nice to have one. The 2023/24 season they will absolutely need a good pair of goalies. 

[Taro T]

22 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

Pegula bucks wise, yes they can. They can afford any goalie in the league.

They are not giving up anything lower than a 3rd to get that goalie. 

Second bold.

Are we a playoff team with a true #1 next year? If you believe we are than we need one, if they are not it would just be nice to have one. The 2023/24 season they will absolutely need a good pair of goalies. 

Happen to be in the camp that believes they have to start winning SOME games before they figure out how to win enough to get into the playoffs.  So, no, do not agree in any way that good (or even reasonable) goaltending is a luxury next year.  It's a necessity.  OR we are giving Adams a free pass to not show appreciable improvement for a THIRD year?  

In what line of work, other than POSSIBLY something in the public sector, can you FAIL THREE years running and get a pass?