GDT: Buffalo vs Vancouver 10/19/21 7 pm MSG

[dudacek]

11 minutes ago, Norcal said:

I feel like there were alot of times it was Jack taking on 3 defenders and losing the puck over  the last several years. 

I feel like guys on the ice with him were guilty of standing around waiting for the great Jack Eichel to make a play. 

 

I think this more than anything else might come closest to the central issue of the Eichel/Sabres dynamic. 
It often seemed as though both Eichel and his teammates (in a culture fostered by the organization) expected Eichel to be at the centre of everything.

 

[inkman]

52 minutes ago, Digger said:

I saw a picture of Dahlin wearing a full shield today (Paul Hamilton tweet).  Maybe he lost some teeth?  If not, anyone know what's up with him?

 

29 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

He left the game for awhile in the first but I didn’t see what happened. When he returned he had what looked like a cut near his mouth.

He got several stitches in his face in the locker room during the game. 

[K-9]

33 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

He left the game for awhile in the first but I didn’t see what happened. When he returned he had what looked like a cut near his mouth.

He took a puck to the face. As he skated off, Rob said, “Yeah, he’s leaking.” 

[Thorny]

50 minutes ago, Norcal said:

I feel like there were alot of times it was Jack taking on 3 defenders and losing the puck over  the last several years. 

I feel like guys on the ice with him were guilty of standing around waiting for the great Jack Eichel to make a play. 

 

 

34 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think this more than anything else might come closest to the central issue of the Eichel/Sabres dynamic. 
It often seemed as though both Eichel and his teammates (in a culture fostered by the organization) expected Eichel to be at the centre of everything.

 

So the players on his line were standing around waiting for him to do something, and he managed to carry those lost players around to lines that have been dominant since Jack's been off his ELC? Jack's lines have performed exceptionally within recent history, he's not hogging the puck selfishly or doing all the work while others don't do anything. He brought out the best in Skinner and Sam and VO and etc etc, he didn't drag them down. The line Jack was on always ran through Jack because of course you want your best player to have the puck, particularly your best puck mover/carrier. 

I agree there was an Eichel centric culture fostered by the organization, but that rears it's ugly head through roster construction specifically (expecting too much from one player/sacrificing too much for one player/failing to build around said player. 

When Eichel is on a good team, finally, when he is on the ice the puck will assuredly run through him, there, too. They'll just have other good lines, too, and probably won't be looking towards him to be their central leader/expect him to bail them out of every situation. But it's not something that was negatively surfacing in the micro situations where Jack was literally skating around on the ice with his line mates. They weren't all trying above all else to get him the puck or something, not more than what you see with other stars. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Thorny

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, Digger said:

I saw a picture of Dahlin wearing a full shield today (Paul Hamilton tweet).  Maybe he lost some teeth?  If not, anyone know what's up with him?

He missed time during the game after catching a puck in the face.  Got stitches, finished the game.  I heard he lost teeth but don't know if that was verified.

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No he wouldn’t.  He is a me first player and a locker room problem.  His presence would ruin the United identity they are trying to foster 

He is not a locker room problem. He might not be warmly embraced or chummy with everyone in the room but that doesn't make him a malignant presence. You and the majority of contributors here have this naive misconception that locker rooms are only populated with best of friends. That idyllic view has little resemblance to the reality of locker rooms in all sports or even workplaces in general. The Buffalo Bills in their hay day were called the bickering Bills. But when it came to playing they were effective. 

The notion that Jack couldn't fit in or even adjust to a Granato coached team is a product of one's animus toward a player. What's happening here is that a jaundiced view of a player is influencing one's perception of how much he can help this team.  

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

How about the skating 15-minutes-a-night, roll four balanced lines equally part?

(Jack's play style and skill set on the ice can fit with any coach's preferred play style. That's one of the defining characteristics of elite players.)

I'm very confident that Granato will work out how best to use Jack. Whether that is maximum minutes or a reduction of minutes this very adroit coach will work out a schedule that will most benefit the team.  

[Cityo'Rasmii]

Wrong thread

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, JohnC said:

He is not a locker room problem. He might not be warmly embraced or chummy with everyone in the room but that doesn't make him a malignant presence. You and the majority of contributors here have this naive misconception that locker rooms are only populated with best of friends. That idyllic view has little resemblance to the reality of locker rooms in all sports or even workplaces in general. The Buffalo Bills in their hay day were called the bickering Bills. But when it came to playing they were effective. 

The notion that Jack couldn't fit in or even adjust to a Granato coached team is a product of one's animus toward a player. What's happening here is that a jaundiced view of a player is influencing one's perception of how much he can help this team.  

Granato also fielded a question about the room a while back, where I believe Jack was included within the context, Granato answered a little more pointedly than usual and his answer was basically: no one understands/knows what the room is actually like, the players are different than you see in interviews, the atmosphere is positive and upbeat. He’s been in the room with all of them - but this isn’t a place many are choosing to put the weight they usually attribute to his comments. 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Granato also fielded a question about the room a while back, where I believe Jack was included within the context, Granato answered a little more pointedly than usual and his answer was basically: no one understands/knows what the room is actually like, the players are different than you see in interviews, the atmosphere is positive and upbeat. He’s been in the room with all of them - but this isn’t a place many are choosing to put the weight they usually attribute to his comments. 

I have heard Granato speak warmly about Jack and express empathy for what he is going through. The coach pointed out that one of the most talented players in the world whose life and identity revolve around a game he has passion for has for an extended period of time had the game taken away from him. And he pointed out that there are no guarantees that he might ever play again or if he does return to the ice might never be the player he was because of his injury. You don't think that Jack is aware that there are risks and things might not work out as he wants it to? 

The harsh critics seem to forget that before he is a hockey player he is a human being who is undergoing a very challenging period of time where his life has been in many respects uprooted. It seems that Granato has a good grasp on the concept of " compassion" while many people who are looking in don't.  

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

10 minutes ago, JohnC said:

He is not a locker room problem. He might not be warmly embraced or chummy with everyone in the room but that doesn't make him a malignant presence. You and the majority of contributors here have this naive misconception that locker rooms are only populated with best of friends. That idyllic view has little resemblance to the reality of locker rooms in all sports or even workplaces in general. The Buffalo Bills in their hay day were called the bickering Bills. But when it came to playing they were effective. 

The notion that Jack couldn't fit in or even adjust to a Granato coached team is a product of one's animus toward a player. What's happening here is that a jaundiced view of a player is influencing one's perception of how much he can help this team.  

You have no idea about mine or others locker room experience. I played hockey throughout high school at a pretty high level and also played as an adult.  I’ve have plenty of locker room experience thank you very much. The key to a locker room is how willing is the team to work together toward a goal.  When players become a problem it can ruin a team.  That’s why Kane was expelled from WPG and why he should have never been acquired.  I’ve been on teams that worked together and others that were clicky and that usually lead to finger pointing when things didn’t go well.  I believe that’s what we saw last year in Buffalo and Jack and Hall were at the heart of the issue.  Jack has always sulked when things didn’t go well.

I believe putting Jack back on this team would be a mistake.  New leaders have taken over and they don’t need someone like Jack to come in and ruin the new culture they are trying to establish of unity and effort. 

Yes this team needs more talent, but I’d much rather that come from within and from guys who are growing together.

 

[Doohickie]

26 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The notion that Jack couldn't fit in or even adjust to a Granato coached team is a product of one's animus toward a player. What's happening here is that a jaundiced view of a player is influencing one's perception of how much he can help this team.

Actually, I think it comes from the narrative (whether or not it is true) that Adams was seeking to move Jack before the injury became an issue because Jack "didn't want to be here", just like he moved Risto and Reino.  That doesn't mean that any of those three players were dressing room problems, just that KA wanted to move them because with their desire to be elsewhere he didn't think they would buy into Team Granato, and didn't want to force them to.  I was hopeful Jack would be back as a Sabre for a long time, even after the rumors that KA was trying to move him surfaced, but at this point I've accepted a move as pretty much inevitable.

Given that he's likely on his way out, it's easier to believe negatives assigned to him.

[Doohickie]

25 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I have heard Granato speak warmly about Jack and express empathy for what he is going through.

Part of the reason Granato is where he is today is that he relates to and has empathy for people.  There are different coaching styles and his is very people focused.  Part of that is to never to kick someone when they're down, and to never burn bridges.  In this small world of hockey, you never know who you'll end up having to work with.  So even if KA is intent on moving Jack out of Buffalo, Granato doesn't know what the future holds and would fully embrace Jack on the Sabres, or would conceivable accept a HC on another team where coincidentally Jack ended up.

In the KA-DG axis, KA is the bad cop, DG is the good cop.

[Thorny]

25 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Actually, I think it comes from the narrative (whether or not it is true) that Adams was seeking to move Jack before the injury became an issue because Jack "didn't want to be here", just like he moved Risto and Reino.  That doesn't mean that any of those three players were dressing room problems, just that KA wanted to move them because with their desire to be elsewhere he didn't think they would buy into Team Granato, and didn't want to force them to.  I was hopeful Jack would be back as a Sabre for a long time, even after the rumors that KA was trying to move him surfaced, but at this point I've accepted a move as pretty much inevitable.

Given that he's likely on his way out, it's easier to believe negatives assigned to him.

Fair. 

Getting into the "locker room" stuff again just seems pointless - didn't want to go there again. Does anyone? We can't know one way or the other, anyway. Trying to move away from that now. What I thought was worth pointing out, what started the discussion anew was the mention that Eichel was a selfish player, on ice. That, even with all culture/want to be here/locker room issues being equal, that his actual on-ice game is that of a selfish player. THAT claim, along with the claim that he hasn't looked to improve since coming into the NHL, seem to me to be strictly disprovable by looking at the data. From my perspective it looks like, because there are legitimate areas of criticism for Eichel, it's being decided his "negativity" has sunken into every aspect of his presence, a kind of negative-midas touch, and these rather frivolous extrapolations are only serving to muddy the legitimate "Eichel may be beyond salvageable as a Sabre" waters. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Thorny

[Doohickie]

The failure of the Sabres to play winning hockey with Jack doesn't fall on Jack (or Sam or Risto or ROR).  It falls on consistently failing to bring in the wrong supporting players as well as the wrong coaches. 

In part of a season and three games into the next, it feels like they finally realized that character and hustle are at least as important as talent, and a coach who emphasizes boring old hard work and conditioning rather than "handling" star players is what was needed to change to a winning culture. 

The injury to Jack couldn't have come at a worse time; we'd be so much better with him centering a line, but it seems like KA was already ready to move him regardless.  None of this is Jack's fault.  If Jack didn't want to be here when KA became GM it's hard to blame him for that attitude; it is an indication of how dysfunctional this organization was prior to the hiring of Kevyn Adams (and even now, any success the team sees under him is tenuous at best).

[K-9]

38 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Actually, I think it comes from the narrative (whether or not it is true) that Adams was seeking to move Jack before the injury became an issue because Jack "didn't want to be here", just like he moved Risto and Reino.  That doesn't mean that any of those three players were dressing room problems, just that KA wanted to move them because with their desire to be elsewhere he didn't think they would buy into Team Granato, and didn't want to force them to.  I was hopeful Jack would be back as a Sabre for a long time, even after the rumors that KA was trying to move him surfaced, but at this point I've accepted a move as pretty much inevitable.

Given that he's likely on his way out, it's easier to believe negatives assigned to him.

I’m not convinced that Eichel didn’t want to be here at the time KA is rumored to have tried moving him in the Summer/Fall of 2020. He made some acquisitions that were widely viewed as good moves at the time. Moves designed to help Eichel. Although I’m sure Krueger had more say. Eichel was also only two years into his new deal that summer. Why would he agree to a long term deal with a team he didn’t want to play for? I’m also not convinced that Adams did anything more than field some calls about Eichel from interested teams. GMs do that all the time. 

But if Adams really did decide to move him before the 2020/2021 season, my question is why? What did he observe that convinced him the team needed to go in a another direction? 
 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

 

So the players on his line were standing around waiting for him to do something, and he managed to carry those lost players around to lines that have been dominant since Jack's been off his ELC? Jack's lines have performed exceptionally within recent history, he's not hogging the puck selfishly or doing all the work while others don't do anything. He brought out the best in Skinner and Sam and VO and etc etc, he didn't drag them down. The line Jack was on always ran through Jack because of course you want your best player to have the puck, particularly your best puck mover/carrier. 

I agree there was an Eichel centric culture fostered by the organization, but that rears it's ugly head through roster construction specifically (expecting too much from one player/sacrificing too much for one player/failing to build around said player. 

When Eichel is on a good team, finally, when he is on the ice the puck will assuredly run through him, there, too. They'll just have other good lines, too, and probably won't be looking towards him to be their central leader/expect him to bail them out of every situation. But it's not something that was negatively surfacing in the micro situations where Jack was literally skating around on the ice with his line mates. They weren't all trying above all else to get him the puck or something, not more than what you see with other stars. 

Can't say I disagree with any of this (my long-held belief Reinhart was limited by turning him into Eichel's hand-picked lackey, notwithstanding).

I agree that Jack is an unselfish, competitive hockey player on the ice, and that any negative elements to his makeup off the ice won't really be issues in most organizations.

The bolded, not the on-ice play, is primarily what I was getting at. I think there is also the related elements of Jack (rightly or wrongly) blaming the organization for not getting him the proper support and the (conscious or unconscious) implication he consequently sent out to the team's rank-and-file that they were less than worthy.

We've heard Granato talk about players needing to "get wet" in order to develop. I think there have been large portions of the Sabres locker room in recent years who never felt fully invested in the team's success or failures because they essentially felt like the peon down in the mail room. Shut up, stay in your lane and get out of the way.

Thus players outside the immediate core got stunted in their development, and the core got frustrated and shortchanged because there was nobody behind them to pick up the slack. That's primarily an organizational failure not a Jack failure.

My evidence for this is the past 25 games, the obviously calculated switch in focus from "core" to "team" and the apparent across-the-board growth happening as a result.

I'm not saying a core-based culture can't work, or that we won't need to move back in that direction at some point to go on a run. I am saying the core-based culture built under Murray and Krueger didn't work and needed to be flushed.

Jack is less the cause than he is collateral damage.

Edited October 20, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Can't say I disagree with any of this (my long-held belief Reinhart was limited by turning him into Eichel's hand-picked lackey, notwithstanding).

I agree that Jack is an unselfish, competitive hockey player on the ice, and that any negative elements to his makeup off the ice won't really be issues in most organizations.

The bolded, not the on-ice play, is primarily what I was getting at. I think there is also the related elements of Jack (rightly or wrongly) blaming the organization for not getting him the proper support and the (conscious or unconscious) implication he consequently sent out to the team's rank-and-file that they were less than worthy.

We've heard Granato talk about players needing to "get wet" in order to develop. I think there have been large portions of the Sabres locker room in recent years who never felt fully invested in the team's success or failures because they essentially felt like the peon down in the mail room. Shut up, stay in your lane and get out of the way.

Thus players outside the immediate core got stunted in their development, and the core got frustrated and shortchanged because there was nobody behind them to pick up the slack. That's primarily an organizational failure not a Jack failure.

My evidence for this is the past 25 games, the obviously calculated switch in focus from "core" to "team" and the apparent across-the-board growth happening as a result.

I'm not saying a core-based culture can't work, or that we won't need to move back in that direction at some point to go on a run. I am saying the core-based culture built under Murray and Krueger didn't work and needed to be flushed.

Jack is less the cause than he is collateral damage.

very nuanced. I agree with every word. 

[Doohickie]

30 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I’m not convinced that Eichel didn’t want to be here at the time KA is rumored to have tried moving him in the Summer/Fall of 2020. He made some acquisitions that were widely viewed as good moves at the time. Moves designed to help Eichel. Although I’m sure Krueger had more say. Eichel was also only two years into his new deal that summer. Why would he agree to a long term deal with a team he didn’t want to play for? I’m also not convinced that Adams did anything more than field some calls about Eichel from interested teams. GMs do that all the time. 

But if Adams really did decide to move him before the 2020/2021 season, my question is why? What did he observe that convinced him the team needed to go in a another direction?

Really good questions.

I would love to hear a timeline of what happened, as told by the Pegulas, Jack, Reino, JBot, KA, Housley, Krueger, Granato.... I'd love to see the separate chronologies and then connect them together.

I think it's possible that when KA came on as GM, he immediately identified a desire to move Eichel.  Or (as I felt at the time), if people contact you about a trade, you listen even if you think your answer is no.  From stuff that's been out there (tweets, this forum, etc.) I get the idea that KA was looking to move Eichel before his injury problems surfaced last year, but I have no idea what the actual chronology is.  We fill in the narrative on a fan forum but I'd love to know the truth.

(@john wawrow- if you still peruse the forum.... I hope you're compiling your notes.  This is a book I would buy.)

Edited October 20, 2021 by The Ghost of Yuri

[Digger]

I would love to see the Eichel story told from Adams perspective in an article or book after he retires.  Actually for that matter I would buy the book from Eichel's perspective too just to get some sort of understanding of the truth (most likely it lies somewhere in the middle).

[Doohickie]

1 minute ago, Digger said:

I would love to see the Eichel story told from Adams perspective in an article or book after he retires.  Actually for that matter I would buy the book from Eichel's perspective too just to get some sort of understanding of the truth (most likely it lies somewhere in the middle).

That's what I'm saying... what's the story from all perspectives?  And how do they fit together?

[JohnC]

18 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Actually, I think it comes from the narrative (whether or not it is true) that Adams was seeking to move Jack before the injury became an issue because Jack "didn't want to be here", just like he moved Risto and Reino.  That doesn't mean that any of those three players were dressing room problems, just that KA wanted to move them because with their desire to be elsewhere he didn't think they would buy into Team Granato, and didn't want to force them to.  I was hopeful Jack would be back as a Sabre for a long time, even after the rumors that KA was trying to move him surfaced, but at this point I've accepted a move as pretty much inevitable.

Given that he's likely on his way out, it's easier to believe negatives assigned to him.

You nailed it. That's exactly the point that @Thornyand I have made on this topic. I reject this demonizing of this particular player. It is not right and fair. 

[JohnC]

18 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You have no idea about mine or others locker room experience. I played hockey throughout high school at a pretty high level and also played as an adult.  I’ve have plenty of locker room experience thank you very much. The key to a locker room is how willing is the team to work together toward a goal.  When players become a problem it can ruin a team.  That’s why Kane was expelled from WPG and why he should have never been acquired.  I’ve been on teams that worked together and others that were clicky and that usually lead to finger pointing when things didn’t go well.  I believe that’s what we saw last year in Buffalo and Jack and Hall were at the heart of the issue.  Jack has always sulked when things didn’t go well.

I believe putting Jack back on this team would be a mistake.  New leaders have taken over and they don’t need someone like Jack to come in and ruin the new culture they are trying to establish of unity and effort. 

Yes this team needs more talent, but I’d much rather that come from within and from guys who are growing together.

 

Name a Sabre coach who has directly or indirectly described Jack as a problem in the locker room? Name a player who has directly or indirectly described Jack as a problem in the locker room? There is a negative narrative being made and advanced without supporting evidence. The demonizing of a player without supporting evidence is not fair or right. 

[JohnC]

17 hours ago, dudacek said:

Can't say I disagree with any of this (my long-held belief Reinhart was limited by turning him into Eichel's hand-picked lackey, notwithstanding).

I agree that Jack is an unselfish, competitive hockey player on the ice, and that any negative elements to his makeup off the ice won't really be issues in most organizations.

The bolded, not the on-ice play, is primarily what I was getting at. I think there is also the related elements of Jack (rightly or wrongly) blaming the organization for not getting him the proper support and the (conscious or unconscious) implication he consequently sent out to the team's rank-and-file that they were less than worthy.

We've heard Granato talk about players needing to "get wet" in order to develop. I think there have been large portions of the Sabres locker room in recent years who never felt fully invested in the team's success or failures because they essentially felt like the peon down in the mail room. Shut up, stay in your lane and get out of the way.

Thus players outside the immediate core got stunted in their development, and the core got frustrated and shortchanged because there was nobody behind them to pick up the slack. That's primarily an organizational failure not a Jack failure.

My evidence for this is the past 25 games, the obviously calculated switch in focus from "core" to "team" and the apparent across-the-board growth happening as a result.

I'm not saying a core-based culture can't work, or that we won't need to move back in that direction at some point to go on a run. I am saying the core-based culture built under Murray and Krueger didn't work and needed to be flushed.

Jack is less the cause than he is collateral damage.

As @Thornyaptly stated very nuanced and an incisive analysis of the situation. 

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, JohnC said:

As @Thornyaptly stated very nuanced and an incisive analysis of the situation. 

Probably the best post and take I've seen on the matter by a fair amount, and significantly better than anything I've cobbled together on the issue.

Quote eternal on that one