Jeff Skinner Agrees to waive His NMC for Expansion Draft

[steveoath]

16 minutes ago, Der Jaeger said:

Skinner plays a more edgy game, but he’s similar in that he’s shoot first, doesn’t help game flow, and is at his best in transition and offensively.  
 

I’d seriously look into acquiring a player like Wennberg.  He’s got lots of flaws, but if he can be had for a reasonable price, he seems like the pass first, defense conscious center who might get Skinner going.

Or Beniers 😉

Or perhaps Rossi. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, rakish said:

In my imaginary dinner with Ralph Kreuger, he explains that Jeff Skinner sucks, he's a hand laborer from Nevada, and OMG, half Northern Italian. That's RK's weakness as a manager, not his strength, he's out of a job partially because Jeff Skinner didn't score 45 goals this year. Anybody can pee on Jeff Skinner as coach, and Jeff will score 3 goal for you. It doesn't make you right even if Jeff's a hand laborer from Nevada. The competent manager, like Teddy, will get Skinner to score, because he's able to motivate him.

I agree with you that that is the Don's view of the world, and the fillmakers are telling you that this vision of the world leads to your daughter's husband going to the Tatanias because the Don never treated him as family. You can say Carlo sucked, and be sitting home like Krueger, because it's not important that you are right about Jeff Skinner, it's important that Jeff Skinner scores 45 goals for you. The Don needed to have Carlo believe he was part of the core. Kreuger needed to have Skinner believe he was part of the core. Asking Jeff to waive is exactly like peeing on Carlo, it's really bad management.

I don't agree with you that asking Skinner to waive his NMC is disrespecting him as a player. In a sense it is the opposite. I'm sure that when the GM asked him to waive his clause that he was informed that there was an infinitesimal chance that he would be selected by Seattle. And Skinner who is a smart guy and in consultation with his agent knew that to be true. So he did something that will benefit the team that he will be playing for. Helping the team also indirectly helps him.

Skinner knows as well as anyone that for a number of reasons his play has precipitously declined. He is smart enough to know that with the departure of the previous coach and the hiring of Granato he has a better chance of reviving his career. By agreeing to waive his self-interest clause he demonstrated to the organization that he is bought in to the team and this new regime. 

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I was really surprised to read in the Sullivan piece that Skinner holds the current record for number of NHL games played without making the playoffs (773). I had assumed he'd been in there with Carolina but thinking about it, ya, I guess that was before they got good. 

Risto (542) Reinhart (454) and even Eichel (375) what a sad state of affairs when you stop to think about it (which I try not to). 

I think Bogo had it until very recently. 

12 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I don't agree with you that asking Skinner to waive his NMC is disrespecting him as a player. In a sense it is the opposite. I'm sure that when the GM asked him to waive his clause that he was informed that there was an infinitesimal chance that he would be selected by Seattle. And Skinner who is a smart guy and in consultation with his agent knew that to be true. So he did something that will benefit the team that he will be playing for. Helping the team also indirectly helps him.

Skinner knows as well as anyone that for a number of reasons his play has precipitously declined. He is smart enough to know that with the departure of the previous coach and the hiring of Granato he has a better chance of reviving his career. By agreeing to waive his self-interest clause he demonstrated to the organization that he is bought in to the team and this new regime. 

Yes, the opposite of disrespect is assuring him there's a...checks notes..."infinitesimal chance" he's wanted lmao 

You are assuming way, way, WAY too much about what Skinner "knows" in your second paragraph. I don't think Skinner would say his play has declined, at all. Zero chance. He'd say his production has - and that's way different 

He can't know he will be given every chance of reviving his career here, either, as the team has made the decision that the risk of losing skinner, however small, is a less important factor than Will freaking Borgen. If his production was pretty good last year, they'd never risk it, even if they had word Seattle wasn't looking to take a big contract. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Thorny

[JohnC]

Just now, Thorny said:

I think Bogo had it until very recently. 

Yes, the opposite of disrespect is assuring him there's a...checks notes..."infinitesimal chance" he's wanted lmao 

The baggage he carries relates to his onerous contract and not the player. If he had a contract with much less term Seattle might have an interest in plucking him off the expansion list with the hope that he can regain his scoring prowess. And he knows that as well. 

[Der Jaeger]

56 minutes ago, steveoath said:

Or Beniers 😉

Or perhaps Rossi. 

I don’t think that works.

Skinner can drag down other players with his play style.  Once you pass him the puck, it’s not coming back.  Or if it does, it’s usually an ill timed to placed pass.

Wennberg has historically been a pass-first player.  And Skinner’s not really dragging him down.

[dudacek]

12 minutes ago, Der Jaeger said:

I don’t think that works.

Skinner can drag down other players with his play style.  Once you pass him the puck, it’s not coming back.  Or if it does, it’s usually an ill timed to placed pass.

Wennberg has historically been a pass-first player.  And Skinner’s not really dragging him down.

Matthew Danault is another one who might work. 

[LGR4GM]

21 minutes ago, Der Jaeger said:

I don’t think that works.

Skinner can drag down other players with his play style.  Once you pass him the puck, it’s not coming back.  Or if it does, it’s usually an ill timed to placed pass.

Wennberg has historically been a pass-first player.  And Skinner’s not really dragging him down.

Rossi wouldn't work but Beniers would. 

[Thorny]

35 minutes ago, Der Jaeger said:

I don’t think that works.

Skinner can drag down other players with his play style.  Once you pass him the puck, it’s not coming back.  Or if it does, it’s usually an ill timed to placed pass.

Wennberg has historically been a pass-first player.  And Skinner’s not really dragging him down.

He also gets dragged down a lot leading to powerplay goals for the team he plays on 

[Thorny]

You want to play Skinner with a centre who will let it rip. Contrary to popular believe you don't need to constantly feed him, he goes to the dirty areas (a more valuable skill for this team as currently constructed than another pass first player of the same level, I'd wager) so if there are rebounds to cash, he'll see to it. I believe the year Skinner scored 40 Jack was still among the league leaders in shots on goal. 

[LGR4GM]

17 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You want to play Skinner with a centre who will let it rip. Contrary to popular believe you don't need to constantly feed him, he goes to the dirty areas (a more valuable skill for this team as currently constructed than another pass first player of the same level, I'd wager) so if there are rebounds to cash, he'll see to it. I believe the year Skinner scored 40 Jack was still among the league leaders in shots on goal. 

Then you want McTavish as his center. 

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Then you want McTavish as his center. 

Eh, there's only a 4 year warranty on my analysis above 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Thorny

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

You want to play Skinner with a centre who will let it rip. Contrary to popular believe you don't need to constantly feed him, he goes to the dirty areas (a more valuable skill for this team as currently constructed than another pass first player of the same level, I'd wager) so if there are rebounds to cash, he'll see to it. I believe the year Skinner scored 40 Jack was still among the league leaders in shots on goal. 

Thats how I recall it.  He’s not a transitional player, he’s an ambush scorer.

[Thorny]

7 minutes ago, Weave said:

Thats how I recall it.  He’s not a transitional player, he’s an ambush scorer.

Doesn't shy away from contact. Draws penalties because he's so strong on his skates. 

[dudacek]

17 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Doesn't shy away from contact. Draws penalties because he's so strong on his skates. 

This is becoming like the “but he’s a physical presence” thing for Risto.

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This is becoming like the “but he’s a physical presence” thing for Risto.

I'm confused, because I know you like Risto. 

Also, I don't really get the comparison. Skinner's skill in this case is strictly quantifiable: it leads to goals. 

I'm also the only person who talks about his penalty drawing ability on the regular. Skinner is much more disliked than liked around here overall I'd say, and not saying it shouldn't be that way, but I think it makes sense to point out the objective positives to paint a more accurate overall picture. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorny]

This is Penalties drawn in the last decade of the NHL. Familiar name at the very top. Looking at the names around him, too, points to it being a list populated by good players. It's not a vague "physical presence" attribute, throughout the course of his career Skinner has been the best at getting his team to the PP. Which is of course a very good place to be. 

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

This is Penalties drawn in the last decade of the NHL. Familiar name at the very top. Looking at the names around him, too, points to it being a list populated by good players. It's not a vague "physical presence" attribute, throughout the course of his career Skinner has been the best at getting his team to the PP. Which is of course a very good place to be. 

Your bookmark restraint is remarkable 

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Your bookmark restraint is remarkable 

*thorny's ocd has entered the chat*

[Sabres Fan in NS]

6 hours ago, ubkev said:

The Don didn't treat Carlo as a part of the family because he didn't approve of his daughter marrying him. He always believed him to be of low character. Plus he was half Northern Italian, and he was a hand laborer from Nevada. He was given a small sports book and he ran it pretty poorly. Carlo sucked.

He also lured Sonny to his murder and was rewarded justly in a Cadilac in GF2 (I think it was 2), right after a meeting with Don Michael saying that he would never make his sister a widow and giving him a one way ticket to Vegas.

 

[Der Jaeger]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

You want to play Skinner with a centre who will let it rip. Contrary to popular believe you don't need to constantly feed him, he goes to the dirty areas (a more valuable skill for this team as currently constructed than another pass first player of the same level, I'd wager) so if there are rebounds to cash, he'll see to it. I believe the year Skinner scored 40 Jack was still among the league leaders in shots on goal. 

You can go with a Bonino type at center, and build a Kessel-Bonino-Hagelin line.  Skinner can be the Kessel.  Actually, Bjork on the other wing, and acquire a defensive center who plays a similar game to Bonino, and it’s a decent version.

Getting a center like Wennberg does have advantages.  He plays well without the puck.  And he can get the puck to dangerous areas.

I’d be up for a Skinner-Wennberg-Bjork line.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Der Jaeger

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Matthew Danault is another one who might work. 

Danault would be a good addition and maybe in our case it's worth it but as I understand it he wants a lot, more than what typical low scoring shut down centers usually get. Not sure that's the best plan. If we're overpaying checkers and character guys I'd rather throw some money at Czikis. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

This is Penalties drawn in the last decade of the NHL. Familiar name at the very top. Looking at the names around him, too, points to it being a list populated by good players. It's not a vague "physical presence" attribute, throughout the course of his career Skinner has been the best at getting his team to the PP. Which is of course a very good place to be. 

He’s also one of the best ES scorers over the past decade too.

Not so much over the past two years though. Fortunately his ability to draw penalties hasn’t declined as much - 26th in the league over the past two years.

His ability to draw penalties has created roughly 8 goals for the Sabres over the past two seasons, or roughly 4 more than Colin Miller or 6 more than Jimmy Vesey.

[Taro T]

7 hours ago, Der Jaeger said:

Skinner reminds me of Geoff Sanderson in a way.  Sanderson played an offensive, transition heavy, shoot first game.  He was at his best with Andrew Cassels, a center who was pass first and also played defense.

Without a center line Cassels, Sanderson wasn’t that effective.  Lots of effort, but wasn’t great for flow among the five on the ice.  
 

Skinner plays a more edgy game, but he’s similar in that he’s shoot first, doesn’t help game flow, and is at his best in transition and offensively.  
 

I’d seriously look into acquiring a player like Wennberg.  He’s got lots of flaws, but if he can be had for a reasonable price, he seems like the pass first, defense conscious center who might get Skinner going.

Except Sanderson's scoring didn't tail off because he was broken up from Cassels, it tailed off because the way goalies played changed.  They were creatures of reaction when he began & few had the reflexes to kick out a leg & a glove before he could rip that shot by them.  They became more anticipatory & the butterfly / hybrid styles came into vogue and he couldn't hit the small gaps they left him nearly as often.

 

[Der Jaeger]

17 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Except Sanderson's scoring didn't tail off because he was broken up from Cassels, it tailed off because the way goalies played changed.  They were creatures of reaction when he began & few had the reflexes to kick out a leg & a glove before he could rip that shot by them.  They became more anticipatory & the butterfly / hybrid styles came into vogue and he couldn't hit the small gaps they left him nearly as often.

 

Well, except Sanderson scored 34 goals in 1995-96, 36 goals in 1996-97, 30 goals in 2000-2001, and 34 goals in 2002-03.

Butterfly goalies were plentiful in 95-96 and the style of play became basically the norm mid 1990s onward.  
 

Sanderson scored 46 goals in 1992-93, and 41 goals in 1993-94, for comparison.  Stand up goalies were pretty common those years.  
 

I suspect the dead puck era trapping and clutch and grab had more to do with his goal production drop, of 5-10 goals per season during his best years.

Andrew Cassels was his center for 5 of Sanderson’s 6 big goal production years.  2000-01 was the outlier. 

 

 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

He’s also one of the best ES scorers over the past decade too.

Not so much over the past two years though. Fortunately his ability to draw penalties hasn’t declined as much - 26th in the league over the past two years.

His ability to draw penalties has created roughly 8 goals for the Sabres over the past two seasons, or roughly 4 more than Colin Miller or 6 more than Jimmy Vesey.

So he's drawing penalties at a top-level, first line rate over the last 2 seasons. Maybe the PP should be better.

You mistakenly compared his quantifiable ability to Risto's vague "he's a physical presence" and I pointed out why that's not an appropriate comparison. You can dislike Skinner and point out his negatives all you want without calling into question a legitimate positive because it doesn't fit your argument. 

It's not so much that I take issue with your overall take, just the fact that you continually say things like "and 40 points isn't enough for the top line when you bring nothing else to the table" - when I keep pointing out that's objectively false.