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OT Star Wars Rise of Skywalker

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45 minutes ago, miles said:

I forgot about super Leia. 

It was so dumb

Coming from EU content super leia wasn't all that super. Cheesy sure, but not out of left field either

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2 hours ago, ... said:

This is Hollywood, they butcher everything.  I mean, how do you screw up The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit?  Leave it to Hollywood to show you how.  Personally, I don't get caught up trying to reconcile the messes they make in the story details.  If I'm entertained at the end, then I'm entertained.  The only outrageous moment was the Princess Leia in outer space thing.  It was so bad, it distracted me from the rest of the movie.  I'll watch it again before SW:RoS, and at least this time I'll be prepared for it. 

I don't think LOTR was screwed up... I really think they just about nailed it as well as could be (particularly if you watch the Extended Editions) with the exception of maybe adding too much Elves (personified by Arwen and Legolas playing on "god" mode) and turning Gimli into just comic relief in the 2nd two films. But yes, The Hobbit. They butchered The Hobbit by trying to make it into LOTR and the content just doesn't support that. And it was total global economics 101 fun, too. Check out Lindsay Ellis' 2- or 3-part YouTube hobbit autopsy effort.

As to Leia...  she was barely conscious and Force-pulled herself back to the door handle. Perhaps she needed to move an arm or show more agency, but otherwise -- that's what it would look like, right? She did a Force pull but couldn't really move, so it was just an extended arm. That didn't bother me. But I was surprised because they could have rewritten from that point and ... had that been her end. Terrible and unfulfilling because it was the TIE pilots, but also a clean way to remove her. It's most odd because all signs indicated that this final film was going to feature Carrie Fisher as a send-off, the way 7 focused on Han and 8 focused on Luke.

Edited by DarthEbriate

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4 hours ago, miles said:

As someone who was incredibly passionate about star wars I will say this about the last jedi in why I didnt like it

1. Luke had a completely different personality than in the ot. (Original trilogy). He was a caring person who wanted to help people and until the last scenes he was a person who stopped happening and was a defeatist 

2. Rey was able to pick up being a jedi so easily. she had no real struggles in tlj. Nothing for her to over come 

3. Everything that was setup by jj Abrams was ignored by rian Johnson and felt completely disjointed 

4. Snoke was easily defeated and wasnt a factor even though he was built up as the new main enemy,  see #3.

Han solo movie was way better, but still not great. The woodie Harrilson character said one thing and contradicted himself 1 second later.  I'm talking about the part where he said to han not to trust people and then woodies girlfriend dies and it's the opposite. I'm having trouble explaining it. I liked the Darth maul tie in at the end, but if you dont know the star wars cartoon series you wouldn't understand it. 

For the record, 2 things:  1) You could say I like Star Wars.  2) I like TFA and TLJ (and I'll probably like the Rise). Sure, they('ll) have issues; every SW film has flaws.

These all are outcomes of too many cooks in the kitchen. Now, we saw (the Prequels) what happens when it's just one person with full control -- and not really having a story to tell. A series of events with some action cues is not a story. But in between too many cooks and just one person is collaboration. And the originals benefited from collaboration.

The flaw of the sequel trilogy is that it was given to 3 different writer/directors. JJ wrote a reboot nostalgia fest (which was great except we didn't get anything daring). Rian Johnson cleared the decks (which I applaud) for the third person. Now, here's the rub. Instead of a third person (Trevorrow), it's now back to JJ, who is going back to the nostalgia well. But that is the problem -- there wasn't a clear story here and progressions for all characters across all films. That's why it feels off (no matter how evocative or beautiful it might be).

Ah! But what about the OT? Yes, those were also extremely disjointed. Lucas got a good film out via the editing process, and great special effects, performances, and music, around a simplistic story arc. Then, an excellent film was created by The Kersh and Brackett/Kasdan. Then, Lucas wanted control back and made a... passable finale. But it's totally disjointed. Leia wasn't Luke's sister until working through the script for ROTJ (the "another Skywalker" Yoda mentions was going to be someone else). The Death Star originally was only in the 3rd act and not the original movie's script, thus when ROTJ rolled around George just brought in another Death Star.

What's different? We're grown-ups now and we're reading more into things and using our analysis skills that adults need to use. Are they kids' movies? No, not specifically. But kids don't need the answers or the consistency (or story quality) to be all in. Regardless, it's all pretty fun.

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I'm continually amazed at the work all of these people have done to keep adding generations to the fanbase.  It is no small task at all to keep the 50 something original fans interested AND new groups of pre teens every 3 years.  19 freaking 77.  And here we are on the cusp of 2020 discussing the next movie on a hockey forum.  Yeah, they've been butchering this, haven't they?

I enjoy them all.  Some are better than others, but lets face it, these are popcorn flicks.  Serial novels on a big screen.  I can't wait to turn my brain off and have fun with it again.

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4 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

As to Leia...  she was barely conscious and Force-pulled herself back to the door handle. Perhaps she needed to move an arm or show more agency, but otherwise -- that's what it would look like, right? She did a Force pull but couldn't really move, so it was just an extended arm. That didn't bother me. But I was surprised because they could have rewritten from that point and ... had that been her end. Terrible and unfulfilling because it was the TIE pilots, but also a clean way to remove her. It's most odd because all signs indicated that this final film was going to feature Carrie Fisher as a send-off, the way 7 focused on Han and 8 focused on Luke.

You want a better ending for Leia? Give her the heroic sacrifice instead of Holdo. That was one of the many things that bugged me about that movie. If you want a sacrifice to mean something, it needs to be someone we actually care about. She was practically a red shirt in that movie. It should have been Akbar, springing one last trap of his own. 
 

The new trailer gave me a sibling vibe from Rey/Kylo.

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I just saw my first trailer for this during the WS and I gotta say...this looks pretty bad. 

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46 minutes ago, shrader said:

You want a better ending for Leia? Give her the heroic sacrifice instead of Holdo. That was one of the many things that bugged me about that movie. If you want a sacrifice to mean something, it needs to be someone we actually care about. She was practically a red shirt in that movie. It should have been Akbar, springing one last trap of his own. 

The trouble was Carrie Fisher died after principal photography was done (and I think even after flying back from some pickups/reshoots). They could have had her die in space or stay in a coma, and then digitally wipe her from the rest of the film. But they couldn't change everything without completely redoing -- which... it was done. Sure, each movie makes a billion dollars, but it takes years of pre-production and planning to put into place. Plus, each film is being individually written/installed/directed --- so it fell on the next person to manage how it would work out.

Ackbar could've done the Holdo, but he died offscreen in the same blast because his voice actor (Erik Bauersfeld) had also recently passed away (thus no speaking lines in TLJ). They honored him by not re-casting.

Edited by DarthEbriate

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My man, @DarthEbriate.  I won't quote your stuff to save us space and time, but LOTR was a colossal mucking of the books.  I read the books, again, earlier this year and then watch the extended edition Blue Rays.  They're just awful compared to the books.  Adding elements yet removing others.  Why?  And the Hobbit movies? Yikes, except they redeem themselves slightly by adding the stuff in Dol Guldur, and I thought, of all things, Smaug was done correctly.

Anyway, so, I just watched this latest trailer.  I don't get the problem with it.  It might look "not good" because they're trying not to give anything away.  

Indeed, between this and the last trailer, I almost have the impression that C3PO might have more to do with Palpatine's return than not. I'm actually intrigued by the so-called ghost fleet and also would love it if Rey and Ren were brother and sister.  

Of course, there's this, which is 3 and half years old, so, not a new "spoiler" or fan theory:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-bizarre-star-wars-theory-palpatine-_b_9617828?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACu_O2C87PIrulAB-fUaNZxg6fC8dJ_kvowESLM0cP25qb-xQsP93zvRsWiv6mH9AMKppjI7Upsr-zPuJt6f4sqE219eWDWH1rRqOL7YMCc3uwRsajk-yiyBBZ8ag84oaJN2dNiQUizx6xGxtLqReXiP5hywNGoWxBaa6lzgfgBY

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11 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

The trouble was Carrie Fisher died after principal photography was done (and I think even after flying back from some pickups/reshoots). They could have had her die in space or stay in a coma, and then digitally wipe her from the rest of the film. But they couldn't change everything without completely redoing -- which... it was done. Sure, each movie makes a billion dollars, but it takes years of pre-production and planning to put into place. Plus, each film is being individually written/installed/directed --- so it fell on the next person to manage how it would work out.

Ackbar could've done the Holdo, but he died offscreen in the same blast because his voice actor (Erik Bauersfeld) had also recently passed away (thus no speaking lines in TLJ). They honored him by not re-casting.

My point wasn't about how to change the story once Fisher died.  It was about the poor writing decisions in that movie.  They managed to screw up heroic sacrifice twice.  The first I mentioned, but then later Finn almost had his moment and then they botched that one too.  He's going to sacrifice himself to take out the shield buster thing but that's bad, so instead an Rose crashes into him, taking both of them out of the fight and allowing the shield to get destroyed.  Why was that the happy solution from the rebel point of view?  They so horribly ruined Finn's character development in that movie, then they also ruined his almost redemption.

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26 minutes ago, shrader said:

They so horribly ruined Finn's character development in that movie, then they also ruined his almost redemption.

 

He had been a coward and redeemed himself in ep7.  In ep8 he became a coward again who could have redeemed himself only to have stupid rose mess it up. 

It could have really meant something if fin, or pretty much any of the main characters sacrificed themselves there. Instead we got a terrible movie that up to now has lost so many fans.

I own the Amazon version which has deleted scenes. there was 1 deleted scene that could have really changed the outlook of Luke. He taught Rey to do what was right, dont blindly follow the jedi order rules. However it was cut and you get a grumpy, uncaring Luke. You dont see that side of him with wisdom like what was in the deleted scene. instead you get Luke drinking gross looking milk and being a grumpy jag off. They cut the only scene that had any redemption for Luke and included a 45 hour scene of rose and fin saving space horses while their friends are being systematically slaughtered. Incredible 

Edited by miles

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Finally finished TLJ last night after reading this thread.

I liked it.

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10 hours ago, shrader said:

My point wasn't about how to change the story once Fisher died.  It was about the poor writing decisions in that movie.  They managed to screw up heroic sacrifice twice.  The first I mentioned, but then later Finn almost had his moment and then they botched that one too.  He's going to sacrifice himself to take out the shield buster thing but that's bad, so instead an Rose crashes into him, taking both of them out of the fight and allowing the shield to get destroyed.  Why was that the happy solution from the rebel point of view?  They so horribly ruined Finn's character development in that movie, then they also ruined his almost redemption.

The first heroic sacrifice could have been Leia -- but only if she could fly the ship and hadn't been planned to be the main old-timer of the third act (Rise of Skywalker). I still think the main beats were known, and 7 - Han, 8 - Luke, 9 - Leia (where we would learn that Leia had had training over the past 30 years... and she was the "another" Yoda spoke of in Empire). etc.

Finn... yeah, it does feel odd. But I think Rian Johnson was going for subversion of the trope. Instead, the message is: You don't have to die for something you believe in; you can believe in it and be willing to fight and die for it, and still come through. And Rose's message of "love will help us win" is a good message for any Disney movie.

As to Finn's arc...  @miles also has a note below...

 

 

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10 hours ago, miles said:

He had been a coward and redeemed himself in ep7.  In ep8 he became a coward again who could have redeemed himself only to have stupid rose mess it up. 

It could have really meant something if fin, or pretty much any of the main characters sacrificed themselves there. Instead we got a terrible movie that up to now has lost so many fans.

Finn's arc in 7 was very good -- taking a stand and getting away from something he now believes is (and certainly is depicted as) evil, and then finding a friend and going back to that evil thing to find his friend. So -- from fleeing as a single entity to defending a friend against his biggest fear. That's a good arc.

In 8, his arc isn't cowardice, he's going after Rey. He's going after his friend (right where he was at the end of 7), and along the way learns from Rose, learns its bigger than him and Rey, and learns also from DJ (deejay?) Benicio! Learns that it's bigger than just First Order/Resistance. He's gone from friend to a worldview. That's an arc.

Now, after that, yes --- he could have sacrificed himself. But see above -- I think that was contradictory to what Rian Johnson was going for. Plus, it may be a mandate that the big three of the new movies aren't offed. Which calls into question all the problems of the modern "franchise" and how it impacts storytelling, but that's going into speculation.

As to sacrifice, with the exception of Obi-Wan in Star Wars, no one really sacrifices themselves in Star Wars. It's not one of the messages. And, even Obi-Wan doesn't sacrifice. He's doing it to "become more powerful" and be able to guide Luke as a disembodied voice... hardly a true self-sacrifice death or goal of martyrdom.

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22 hours ago, ... said:

My man, @DarthEbriate.  I won't quote your stuff to save us space and time, but LOTR was a colossal mucking of the books.

Yeah, unlike quotes, I'm getting a little long-winded here. ;-]

But they had to muck the books in a film adaptation. The books don't have good pacing for a film, they're filled with songs, the fights (which sell tickets to kids) in the books are a few paragraphs long, and Tom Bombadil is plot momentum suicide. Sure, having Arwen "dying" arbitrarily was pointless, but having her replace Glorfindel (a throwaway character) so you can see Aragorn's love interest and create some depth to his character was good (she's in the Appendices, so it wasn't made up). Cutting the scouring of the Shire was good from a movie standpoint, as all the principal action is over at that point. Having Frodo go back after Smeagol once the ring is bitten off is a much more dramatic encounter than Smeagol dancing off the ledge. You can't create a film directly from those books because Tolkien was a linguist first and not a storyteller.

And... Faramir was a minor character, so having him capture Sam and Frodo so that you get a climax to the second movie... yeah, fine. It wasn't a great add, but it can be defended so you get some tension of Sam/Frodo and they don't just disappear midway through the film. I didn't like it, but I get it. That's why even the odder parts and some of the more contrived conflicts (Sam abandoning Frodo; he wouldn't have left Frodo!)... there are very valid reasons why those choices were made from a story perspective.

For the Hobbit -- they did a few things right. The opening scenes with the dwarf visit and song, Bilbo/Smeagol (character-driven), and Bilbo/Smaug (character-driven). Those were beat perfect. The rest went way off the rails and I wasn't sure of plot, tone, or anything else.

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22 hours ago, ... said:

And this wouldn't surprise me in the least. If (as it's been established) he made one "vergence" he could make another, better, perfected one. Except people have a habit of breaking free of shackles like that. It makes for a good story.

(Life... finds a way.)

Sorry about commandeering this thread, y'all. I'll shut up now.

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1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

In 8, his arc isn't cowardice

i should have been specific. in the very beginning when he met rose, he was trying to use the escape pod to run away. that was what i meant by coward

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1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

Sorry about commandeering this thread, y'all. I'll shut up now.

Do not apologize at all. Given your screen name, I've been waiting to read your take on these films - bonus was the Tolkien film/book comparison. On that, I've seen the making-of stuff where they go to lengths to give the very argument you give. I don't really agree with much of it, but I do respect the position.

I think with LOTR, perhaps if the music and the schmaltz were dialed back by, mmm, almost a lot, the rest of it might have been forgivable.  But they really try too hard to squeeze out the emotions which, added to the mutilation of the original story, makes the series almost painful to watch.   

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On 10/22/2019 at 2:04 PM, ... said:

Thanks for the reminder.  Just bought our Christmas day tickets.  The nuclear family has been going every Christmas to see these, so, have to keep up "the tradition".  

Hoping the wife's already bought our tix. We have the same tradition on Christmas Eve. 🍺

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2 hours ago, miles said:

Ignore this

Don't tell me what to do!

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21 hours ago, miles said:

i should have been specific. in the very beginning when he met rose, he was trying to use the escape pod to run away. that was what i meant by coward

He wasn't running away. He was trying to find Rey so she didn't follow the beacon back to the fleet and die. Rose thought he was trying to desert, as others had done, but he was solely focused on Rey (not himself). Then, they team up later and he learns there's more to fight for than just he and Rey. And he attempts a sacrifice as a result.

20 hours ago, ... said:

I think with LOTR, perhaps if the music and the schmaltz were dialed back by, mmm, almost a lot, the rest of it might have been forgivable.  But they really try too hard to squeeze out the emotions which, added to the mutilation of the original story, makes the series almost painful to watch.   

I don't know anything about pre-LOTR Peter Jackson beyond that he was a horror-flick guy and I've seen that one famous clip of the guy starting up the lawnmower and using it against a zombie horde. So... Jackson was definitely OK with over-the-top. So, it makes sense for their team to go big/operatic (and I think logically pull from Wagner because of the ties between LOTR and Der Ring des Nibelungen). But yeah, intense operatic (visually and aurally) is definitely a "your mileage may vary" style.

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2 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

He wasn't running away. He was trying to find Rey so she didn't follow the beacon back to the fleet and die. Rose thought he was trying to desert, as others had done, but he was solely focused on Rey (not himself). Then, they team up later and he learns there's more to fight for than just he and Rey. And he attempts a sacrifice as a result.

I don't know anything about pre-LOTR Peter Jackson beyond that he was a horror-flick guy and I've seen that one famous clip of the guy starting up the lawnmower and using it against a zombie horde. So... Jackson was definitely OK with over-the-top. So, it makes sense for their team to go big/operatic (and I think logically pull from Wagner because of the ties between LOTR and Der Ring des Nibelungen). But yeah, intense operatic (visually and aurally) is definitely a "your mileage may vary" style.

im going to have to rewatch it. i thought he was running away. i thought it was why he didnt have an answer to where he was going

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